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| Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 (983169) | |
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| (983502) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by WillD on Mon Sep 27 10:06:09 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Railman718 on Mon Sep 27 08:11:06 2010. Well, no. The half cabs on the Silverliner Vs are in part a reaction to the reduction in capacity brought on by eight rows of 2+2 seating. That decision results in eight seats being lost relative to the 3+2 Silverliner IIs and IVs and was requested by the Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passengers. Those seats, and another 4 seats are lost to the quarter point doors and wheelchair provisions are partially made up for by the five seats adjacent to the cab. But the half cab design was quite specifically brought on by DVARP's request that the Silverliner V include 8 rows of 2+2 seating. Thus we can say that the S5's RFW was indeed desired by SEPTA's passengers.As for the railfans, I'd be surprised if any of them begrudge the new seating arrangement. Maybe there will be the inevitable railfans who consider themselves employee advocates, hope their acquiescence will bring admission to the rolling crew lounges, and thus will object on the same weak grounds the BLE and UTU are using to carve out those lounges. |
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| (983505) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Mon Sep 27 10:32:13 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by TRANSIT JEFF on Sun Sep 26 19:23:50 2010. If you would have sought employee imput on the cab issue, they would have suggested that there be television sets, coffee pots, tables for them to eat, wi fi hook-ups, computers and stereo speakers in the full-width cabs.Wow, you really have a low opinion of these employees. Of course there are the idiots out there, but asking for ideas from veterans employees who actually care about their job, take it seriously and do their best each day, isn't a bad idea. If there are no employees like this, then SEPTA really needs to re-evaluate how it hires people for various positions. |
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| (983506) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Mon Sep 27 10:33:26 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by arnine on Sun Sep 26 19:55:10 2010. I highly agree! No need to make things personal and tear people down over a simple debate that nobody on this board has control over anyway. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (983507) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by arnine on Mon Sep 27 10:40:01 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by The Flxible Neofan on Mon Sep 27 10:32:13 2010. IAWTP |
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| (983508) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by arnine on Mon Sep 27 10:40:20 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by The Flxible Neofan on Mon Sep 27 10:33:26 2010. Yup :) |
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| (983510) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Railman718 on Mon Sep 27 10:46:12 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by WillD on Mon Sep 27 10:06:09 2010. What a well informative response Will thank you. |
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| (983535) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Sep 27 12:06:57 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by arnine on Mon Sep 27 08:21:33 2010. Ok so you took a survey of every single railfan and every single passenger? Of course not. I used common sense. Sorry it is still your opinion, as my saying they should have the full cab is my opinon. No, it is the opinion of passengers and railfans. Why would anyone from either of those two groups want a full cab? |
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| (983537) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by arnine on Mon Sep 27 12:19:46 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Sep 27 12:06:57 2010. You still cannot say it as fact, which I cannot say as fact it is still an opinion. Nothing more nothing less. BTW the cannot speak for passengers and railfans just like I can't. You can maybe reference some railfans on this board's opinions but you cannot make a broad statement unless you can back it up, which you yourself have told me in the past. |
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| (983538) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Sep 27 12:20:41 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by arnine on Mon Sep 27 12:19:46 2010. Why would anyone from either of those two groups want a full cab? |
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| (983540) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Sep 27 12:21:41 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by arnine on Mon Sep 27 12:19:46 2010. But the half cab design was quite specifically brought on by DVARP's request that the Silverliner V include 8 rows of 2+2 seating. Thus we can say that the S5's RFW was indeed desired by SEPTA's passengers. |
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| (983541) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Sep 27 12:22:04 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by arnine on Mon Sep 27 12:19:46 2010. As for the railfans, I'd be surprised if any of them begrudge the new seating arrangement. Maybe there will be the inevitable railfans who consider themselves employee advocates, hope their acquiescence will bring admission to the rolling crew lounges, and thus will object on the same weak grounds the BLE and UTU are using to carve out those lounges. |
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| (983542) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by arnine on Mon Sep 27 12:25:16 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Sep 27 12:20:41 2010. Ok fine, several have that opinion which I have not denied but you implied you were speaking for every single railfan and every single railfan which you cannot do without a survey. If that is not what you are implying, and I misunderstood, I apologize. |
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| (983543) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Mon Sep 27 12:26:09 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by arnine on Mon Sep 27 12:25:16 2010. We all make mistakes, don't fret. |
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| (983544) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by arnine on Mon Sep 27 12:27:33 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by TransitChuckG on Mon Sep 27 12:26:09 2010. I know. Thanks Chuck I appreciate it :) |
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| (983547) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Sep 27 12:31:33 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by arnine on Mon Sep 27 12:25:16 2010. I did no such thing. I almost never talk in absolutes. So I was obviously talking about what would logically and reasonably be expected of the majority.It makes no sense that a majority of those groups would want full cabs. Why do you keep assuming that I'm doing something wrong? |
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| (983549) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by arnine on Mon Sep 27 12:39:41 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Sep 27 12:31:33 2010. When you talk with implying I will think it is wrong. Again, if I misunderstood you I apologize.BTW this is something there is no right answer, and we all can debate all we want the fact is at the end of the day SEPTA will do what they will do. Let us just agree to disagree on this issue. |
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| (983555) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Mon Sep 27 13:03:47 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Railman718 on Mon Sep 27 10:46:12 2010. What a well informative response Will thank you.I met Will many years ago , he's way above me in Mechanical Engineering. Very intelligent and a good guy. |
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| (983558) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Railman718 on Mon Sep 27 13:31:52 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by arnine on Mon Sep 27 12:39:41 2010. Why do you even bother really? |
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| (983559) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Railman718 on Mon Sep 27 13:34:11 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Sep 27 12:22:04 2010. Thats not you talking that's somebody elses opinion your opinion is in discussion here... |
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| (983560) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by arnine on Mon Sep 27 13:35:14 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Railman718 on Mon Sep 27 13:31:52 2010. True very true |
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| (983590) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Michael Wares on Mon Sep 27 15:28:31 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by arnine on Sun Sep 26 16:51:37 2010. "prior cars to the M1/2/3/4/6 had the half cabs"Cars prior to the M1 etc. had the whole front vestibule as a cab. |
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| (983591) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by WillD on Mon Sep 27 15:34:21 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Sep 27 01:36:34 2010. Exactly, the Silverliner V cab design does not violate any agreement with the BLE, so the BLE's objections to the cab design are completely baseless. |
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| (983598) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by WillD on Mon Sep 27 16:05:33 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Michael Wares on Mon Sep 27 15:28:31 2010. Cars prior to the M1 etc. had the whole front vestibule as a cab.But like SEPTA's current EMUs they also used the front vestibule as both the cab and entry/exitway. That saves seating space, but means unless you're forcing the engineer to clear out of his or her position at every right side stop you're losing a door and requiring passengers at the front of the lead motor to walk 80 some odd feet to and from the nearest door. It's also virtually impossible to get a car with a door next to the engineer position past the FRA today. This effectively means quarter point or center doors will be the only real choice going forward. Because the cab and vestibule areas cannot be combined, we lose seating capacity and it becomes more important to make up for that loss of seating by not wasting space for the crew next to the cab. |
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| (983606) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by arnine on Mon Sep 27 17:14:39 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Michael Wares on Mon Sep 27 15:28:31 2010. I was told they were half cabs. My apologies. I did not know first hand. |
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| (983609) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Michael Wares on Mon Sep 27 17:19:57 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by WillD on Mon Sep 27 16:05:33 2010. On the New York Central and New Haven (and I would assume on the Long Island as well) the front and rear vestibules were not used for entry and exit. |
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| (983616) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Mon Sep 27 18:03:56 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by WillD on Sun Sep 26 17:08:41 2010. If you look at the photos one row of three abreast seating is sacrificed, another three abreast row is converted to two abreast kneeknocker seating, and the front two seats are isolated. That means five seats are removed when a full-width cab is being operated, and two additional seats are rendered virtually useless by virtue of their being kneeknocker seats. Even with fully convertible cabs only occupying the ends of the train that means somewhere between 10 and 14 seats will be rendered useless by the full width cabs. On the 3 car trains that make up the majority of SEPTA's operations, that represents about 5% of the train's capacity, or two passengers per door. Can SEPTA hire you to ride the trains and explain to the passengers riding in the (hazardous) door openings why you thought it was more important the crew be given a hideout than they be afforded a seat?You are entirely correct, the seats that face each other just behind the bulkhead, the three and the two, are knee-knockers, and the two set seat in the cab area is isolated. I felt better with the explanation after looking hard at Kevin painter's photos,but,yes, Will,you were right. Still sounds like SEPTA and Rotem screwed up the design,I know how that feels.I spent 40 years in the design/drafting field, and took my licks. |
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| (983768) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Tue Sep 28 00:03:27 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by kp5308 on Mon Sep 27 07:41:04 2010. Screwed is a WalMart job or a job in a field or at a meat packing plant. A middle class wage on a high school education is called a Unicorn in this day and age. It's this sort of featherbedding bullshit that killed organized labour in this country. |
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| (983786) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Sep 28 03:47:29 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Jersey Mike on Tue Sep 28 00:03:27 2010. That and the Taft-Hartley Act. |
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| (983787) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 28 04:42:27 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Jersey Mike on Tue Sep 28 00:03:27 2010. What featherbedding? You're listening to the libertarians a bit too much. If anything, it's the communists that were allowed back into the unions that make deals with both the business leaders and with China. Back when the USA made half the world's goods and communists were strictly banned from unions, the unions served their purpose as it was intended. Should we get into executives that make 300 times or more the average employee salary, never mind pay-to-fail? |
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| (983801) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Sep 28 07:28:44 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Sep 27 12:21:41 2010. bump |
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| (983802) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Sep 28 07:28:50 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Sep 27 12:22:04 2010. bump |
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| (983803) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Sep 28 07:29:52 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by arnine on Mon Sep 27 12:39:41 2010. When you talk with implying I will think it is wrong. Again, if I misunderstood you I apologize.BTW this is something there is no right answer, and we all can debate all we want the fact is at the end of the day SEPTA will do what they will do. Let us just agree to disagree on this issue. No, that's incorrect. You should not think I'm wrong, since almost every time you initially think I'm wrong, you end up eventually admitting that I was right and you were wrong because you "didn't think correctly" or "weren't thinking right" or "misunderstood", etc. So why don't you save a lot of time and start actually considering that I may be right? Stop looking for reasons why I'm wrong and start looking for reasons why you may be wrong. And no, there is a right or wrong answer here. As I've said several times already, there is no reason a majority of railfans or passengers would want full cabs! What about that do you not understand? And you STILL haven't answered this question: Why would anyone from either of those two groups want a full cab? Take Pride,
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| (983813) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by arnine on Tue Sep 28 08:10:24 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Sep 28 07:29:52 2010. Ok"Why would anyone from either of those two groups want a full cab?" Yeah probably not. But still hard to talk for all of them but since you were not talking in absolutes, you are probably right and sorry for doubting. |
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| (983839) | |
Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Sep 28 10:11:45 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by arnine on Tue Sep 28 08:10:24 2010. Thank you very much. |
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