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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Sun Aug 1 14:44:24 2010, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Aug 1 09:46:36 2010.

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There is another one, right alongside the Prospect Avenue station - formerly known as The Manhanset, now known as Casa Amadeo - it is a gorgeous building, and is in the same Flatiron style. I'm sure we've all seen it; it's hard to miss - very distinctive facade and roof line.
Click here for the Archiplanet page

Every time I see this building, I'm reminded of all the GOOD things about the Bronx!

wayne


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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Sun Aug 1 15:07:46 2010, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Aug 1 14:15:34 2010.

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I remember 2 dark cars in particular. No.1 is a pre GOH on the D in 1987, summertime hot as hell. Got on at 34th, it was during the 1st Manhattan Bridge closure, no seats, walk through to the next car which was dark, practically empty and FREEZING with great A/C. Went a couple stops and the doors weren't opening at the stations. Came to the realization that the car was locked out, but the end door was fucked up or something. No big deal, just made myself comfortable and stayed put. The handful of people in the car just walked to the next car and got off at their stations, I had the car to myself after Fordham. Walking to the next car was my intention but when we got to 205th, I couldn't open either end door, guess it decided to latch correctly after the last person went through. I just popped the seat and pulled the lever to open the door panel and walked out. Guess the crew was mystified. Sometimes being a foam-er can pay off.

2nd dark car memory was another pre-GOH 42 at 34th, also. Dark and looking like a dormitory with all the homeless at 3 on a weekday after noon. Rest of train packed. I know that some of the homeless had taken to forcing the cabs open and turning off the lights, so they could get their beauty sleep. I went to the cab at the b end, which is where the light breakers are, and sure enough it had been forced open. I opened the door turned the lights back on and made sure to throw the lock so that it locked when I closed it. I pissed off a whole bunch of sleepers with that move but most got up, sat up or got off, fuggem. Some regular pax thanked me. Some squatters figured I may have been a cop or some TA boss and mumbled but did not fuck with me.

Such was life on the subway in the 80s. Every man for himself.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Sun Aug 1 15:15:10 2010, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Aug 1 09:37:49 2010.

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That brings to mind an incident that occurred in 1974 during my commuting days - I used to commute from 179th Street to Lex-53rd and one morning I got me a shiny new R44 - #124. I took my usual window seat (on the left side) and we took off. When we got to Parsons - I noticed something - I could NOT see out of the window! At all! When I got off at Lex-53rd - I saw why - the ENTIRE side of that car was painted - end to end and roof to sill - by one "talented" (I use the term liberally, as this was a very complex and intricate mural) vandal by the name of "Killer I" - in black accented with bright yellow and orange. He surrounded this moniker with all kinds of strange faces, shapes, images and symbols. I still can't fathom how he managed to execute this - would have needed a ladder or at least access to a flat surface in order to do it.

The "Bad Old Days" for sure...

-w-


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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Sun Aug 1 16:00:57 2010, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Aug 1 09:46:36 2010.

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In addition to the one I posted below on Prospect Avenue, there is one building - 1879 Clinton Avenue - that also merits mention. This Art Deco beauty stood gutted and abandoned for years overlooking the Cross Bronx Expressway. It has distinctive light buff and red brickwork. And it also had curved Deco casement windows. Sometime in the late 70's it was abandoned and suffered a partial fire. Someone must have felt the same way about it that I did. Look at the street view of the same building NOW. The only thing that's disappointing is that the curved casement windows have been replaced with standard ones (note that the Deco fire escapes are still in place). But this building is a real beauty, and I'm glad to see that it's still alive.

1879 Clinton Avenue

wayne


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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Aug 1 16:21:29 2010, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Sun Aug 1 16:00:57 2010.

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Wow, that is a beauty. It's hard to imagine today, that it was abandoned at one time.

Most of the time, they save the shells of buildings they rehab nowadays. Back in the 80's, they cleared them away because there were just so many of them at the time, and as bad as empty lots were, it was better than abandoned burnt out shells that criminals took over. If it survived to today, there is a good chance the building will survive, at least it's shell, as in the last decade, whatever abandoned shells still around have been gut refurbished, where the entire interior is completely ripped out down to the bricks, but the outside shell is preserved. This has happened all over Brooklyn and the Bronx, and Upper Manhattan too.

For example, here is Decatur St in Bushwick..... The first photo (from Disassociate Lost Brooklyn Trips) is a photo of what these buildings looked like in the 1990's yet. The second two photos are taken by me about 3 years ago, when gut refurbished, and turned into condos, etc:








Check out Lost Brooklyn Trips, which has some great abandonment photos in Brooklyn, when Brooklyn was full of them. It's all changed now, you don't really see much of this anymore.
http://www.disassociate.com/lost_wholeframe_photos.html

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Aug 1 16:25:35 2010, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SUBWAYSURF on Sun Aug 1 15:07:46 2010.

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Such was life on the subway in the 80s. Every man for himself.


Anyone that didn't live through that has no idea what it was like on the subway back then...it was really a horrible place. Thats why I laugh when people make such a big deal about certain things....if they only knew what it was like in the 80's.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Aug 1 16:27:00 2010, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Wado MP73 on Sun Aug 1 14:39:16 2010.

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That kinda shows how you mainly used the above ground portions of the system. For us underground, it didn't matter as much.

Sure it mattered, you still have to know when to get off. If you aren't keeping track of stations, and you can't see outside, even underground, it's a "surprise" to see where you are when the doors open.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by arnine on Sun Aug 1 16:48:03 2010, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Aug 1 16:21:29 2010.

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Interesting

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Sun Aug 1 18:00:31 2010, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Aug 1 16:21:29 2010.

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Thank you, Chris, for sharing that. I always get a warm fuzzy feeling when I see vintage housing stock rescued and rehabilitated. I see that work is ongoing on the building to the right. Bushwick is not the notorious place it used to be. I wonder whatever happened to the 1200 block of Greene, which was swallowed up in flames during the July 13-14-15 riots of 1977.

-wayne-



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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by caine515 on Sun Aug 1 18:22:29 2010, in response to The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SMAZ on Fri Jul 30 22:30:33 2010.

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my dad when i was younger took me on the BX11 bus. He used to live on 163rd off the Grand Concoruse. There were tears in his eyes when he saw how it looks..this was around 1983.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Wado MP73 on Sun Aug 1 18:25:52 2010, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Aug 1 16:27:00 2010.

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You just kept track of stations and switch moves and checked when the doors opened. Seeing tunnels to this day still doesn't help much.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Aug 1 18:49:11 2010, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Wado MP73 on Sun Aug 1 18:25:52 2010.

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Again, how many pay attention their whole trip? Usually you only glance up every so often and see what station you are at. When you pull into a station, you can see you are at let's say Montrose Ave, but you are getting off at Myrtle. It's no different on the els. While obviously there are more landmarks on the el, some parts of the el look the same too, and you only know where you are when you are at a station, just like underground.

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Bushwick Before and After Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Aug 1 19:11:06 2010, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Sun Aug 1 18:00:31 2010.

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Greene Ave burned when many city blocks were destroyed in July 1977 with the "All Hands Fire", which began in a warehouse at the corner of Bleecker and Knickerbocker, and quickly spread to hundreds of homes, and destroyed I believe 20 city blocks in one day.
Here's a photo of that horrible day, this being Greene Ave somewhere between Central Ave and Knickerbocker.



The result was a decade of blocks from Greene to Gates and from Central to Knickerbocker destroyed. Here's a Meril Meysler photo of Gates between Wilson and Knickerbocker in the early 80's, and an "after" shot I took in 2007 at the same fire hydrant, below that and of Linden and in 2007 in the same location with Hope Gardens there now:

Gates and Wilson 1984:


Gates and Wilson 2007


Linden and Wilson 1982:


Linden and Wilson 2007 - Same fire hydrant:


By the mid 80's, the city had cleared many of these blocks and it was on vast open space, with St Barbara's Catholic church, the only building standing for many blocks. Greene Ave along with Gates, Menahan and Linden St had "Hope Gardens" built on it, a low rise project which began a 20 year rebuilding effort that was city funded. It wasn't until the early 2000's that FINALLY private investment began to invest in Bushwick, and now most of the construction is now private as opposed to public, and many of the remaining facades were refurbished and reused.

Here's some photos of the 'All Hands Fire" in 1977, it consumed more than 20 city blocks, and Bushwick looked like a bomb had fallen on it. It would take another 25 years to recover.











Here is another "Before and After" I took back in 2007, using the Meryl Miesler photo at Palmetto and Irving as the before, and mine as the after:





Bushwick has come a LONNNNNG Way.

More Before and After with photos I found on the net as "before", and my photos as the after:

Broadway and Linden:









Look how beautiful this block of Linden between Bushwick Ave and Broadway is today, I took this shot in 2007:



Greene and Broadway:












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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Aug 1 20:36:43 2010, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SMAZ on Sun Aug 1 01:57:22 2010.

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He was 27 that February. He was about to start a doctoral class in engineering when he saw a military vehicle pull up to a line of people waiting at a movie theater and soldiers started rounding up all the men to dig trenches at the front. My father snuck around the back of the theater, returned to the boarding house where he was staying, packed his stuff and went to the train station. He had a ticket to Kempten and travel papers and was given a choice between a military transport (express) train and a civilian loacl train. He chose the latter; the former took a direct hit which he saw from a distance. He arrived in Kempten on Feb. 10 and three days later, Dresden was bombed. Even his family didn't know if he was alive. He's retold the story countless times; someone was watching over him.

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Re: Bushwick Before and After Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Sun Aug 1 22:00:41 2010, in response to Bushwick Before and After Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Aug 1 19:11:06 2010.

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Amazing! Thank you for posting that!

-wayne-


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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SMAZ on Mon Aug 2 01:51:06 2010, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Aug 1 20:36:43 2010.

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My uncle has a similiar story from WW2 in Italy though it was my mother who told it to me. He was a HS student and when air raid sirens went off, they would all go into the bunkers. This happened often. One day the sirens went off and everybody went to the bunkers....except my uncle who just had a bad feeling about it. Defying all logic and common sense, and his teachers and classmates imploring him to join them, he went and took a stroll in the streets with bombs falling over all over the place.
When it was over he went back to the school. There had been a direct hit on the bunker and everybody was dead.

Needless to say, he became very religous after that.
I never asked him about it.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SMAZ on Mon Aug 2 01:53:52 2010, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Aug 1 08:32:11 2010.

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Yeah, I only watched the video once before I posted it and never stopped it to look at the particulars.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SMAZ on Mon Aug 2 02:01:54 2010, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Aug 1 09:42:19 2010.

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Exactly.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Aug 2 02:04:38 2010, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Aug 1 09:42:19 2010.

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One important thing though for you non-Bronxers. CBE really *was* the dividing line ... that part was VERY real ...

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Wado MP73 on Mon Aug 2 06:26:54 2010, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Aug 1 18:49:11 2010.

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If you say so. Now you're making it sound like it shouldn't matter much if the windows are covered or not on the el either. But as you said, there are landmarks in view if your windows are clear on the el, but none if you rode for example, CPW between 72nd St and 96th St or the upper Lex.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 2 07:55:07 2010, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Wado MP73 on Mon Aug 2 06:26:54 2010.

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??????????????????

Whatever dude. How you have made such a big deal out of this I have no idea. In any event, a light hearted statement that it was often a big surprise when the doors opened to see what station you are at stands. Most of the time, whether you are outside or underground, you can watch as your train pulls into the station, and see where you are. That fact is true underground, or above ground. Back then, you didn't see it until the doors opened.

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Re: Bushwick Before and After Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by arnine on Mon Aug 2 08:29:14 2010, in response to Bushwick Before and After Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Aug 1 19:11:06 2010.

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I only have 1 word: WOW

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Wado MP73 on Mon Aug 2 09:11:40 2010, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 2 07:55:07 2010.

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Whatever dude. How you have made such a big deal out of this I have no idea.

That's exactly how I feel about your posts. What I said was just this: "For us underground, it didn't matter as much." because there was nothing to look outside between the stations. Was that so wrong?

Anyway, I'll let it go. This is not worth it for both of us.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 2 09:14:26 2010, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Wado MP73 on Mon Aug 2 09:11:40 2010.

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I disagree with you. With clear windows, you can see the signs in the station (or the color of the tile band, etc.) as you enter so you know it is your stop so you can start getting ready to get up out of the seat or make it known to fellow pax that you would be squeezing though soon. That applies underground or overground just the same. So I totally disagree with you that it didn't matter as much underground that the windows were covered in disgusting graffiti.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 2 14:47:04 2010, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 2 09:14:26 2010.

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EXACTLY!

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by 5119 on Mon Aug 2 16:15:36 2010, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by caine515 on Sun Aug 1 18:22:29 2010.

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I can imagine. I saw how that area changed from 1959-1982. I would like to see it again, particularly with all the renovations I've seen in the pictures posted.

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Re: Bushwick Before and After Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by W Broadway Local on Mon Aug 2 21:33:57 2010, in response to Bushwick Before and After Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Aug 1 19:11:06 2010.

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Amazing. Thanks!

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by W Broadway Local on Mon Aug 2 21:58:05 2010, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Aug 1 09:42:19 2010.

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A damage area doesn't necessary have to have burnt out building and crime infestation. It could be areas that became empty, because the highway ran all the businesses away. I think of the area surrounding the Bruckner Expressway is a good example of this. If you notice, the area surrounding the expressway seem very empty. If it wasn't for the subway, it would be worse. Also, the area on the other side of the expressway doesn't seem to be connected to anything. It is a disaster if you ask me.

Highways are very hard to cross and they pollute the surrounding areas. The pollution can be in the form of carbon-monoxide or noise. The only businesses that seem to do well around a highway is a gas station and Mechanic shops. But they are not good places to live.

The area surround a highway is dirty and grimy. It is not a friendly place at night.

At some point, I hope they dismantle the Bruckner Expressway. It is an eye soar to the area surrounding it. It disassociates the area that surround it. It discourages development, while walls people in.





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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by W Broadway Local on Mon Aug 2 22:04:48 2010, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jul 31 10:50:29 2010.

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I remember riding the "M" train R30's. Those R30's use to kick the but out of the R16 "J" trains.

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Re: Bushwick Before and After Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 20 17:43:12 2012, in response to Bushwick Before and After Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Aug 1 19:11:06 2010.

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Photos from the 1980's above by Meryl Meisler
Check out more of her photos on her website: www.merylmeisler.com


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Re: Bushwick Before and After Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Edwards! on Fri Apr 20 18:01:36 2012, in response to Bushwick Before and After Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Aug 1 19:11:06 2010.

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man..I remember all of that like it was yesterday...

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 20 18:20:10 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by W Broadway Local on Mon Aug 2 21:58:05 2010.

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A damage area doesn't necessary have to have burnt out building and crime infestation. It could be areas that became empty, because the highway ran all the businesses away. I think of the area surrounding the Bruckner Expressway is a good example of this. If you notice, the area surrounding the expressway seem very empty. If it wasn't for the subway, it would be worse.

Yes, but again, expressways cut through many areas that remained strong, even with it going through. The Whitestone expressway, the Long Island (Queens Midtown) Expressway through Maspeth, actually almost all the areas the LIE cut through in Queens remain strong. Just look at all the businesses along it by QUeens Center, Lefrak City, Fresh Meadows, etc. No damage at all, and business thrives.

The only businesses that seem to do well around a highway is a gas station and Mechanic shops. But they are not good places to live.

Again, that's totally untrue. Again, just look at the healthy areas the LI Expressway cuts through in queens, with business flurishing all around it.
As you get more suburban, even more so. Business flocks to the expressway/highways (often to the detriment of older downtown areas further away). So that is not an accurate statement that "only gas stations, mechanic shops and industry do well around a highway. In fact, the opposite is quite true.


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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by R30A on Fri Apr 20 18:57:16 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 20 18:20:10 2012.

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Not that it changes anything about your post which I think is right in general, but you are replying to a 20.5 month old post.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 20 19:17:52 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by R30A on Fri Apr 20 18:57:16 2012.

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Hahaha, yeah, I know, I got caught up in the moment. But yes, it is pretty silly responding to a 2 year old post. But anyway, I guess it's something I should have said 2 years ago, haha.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Apr 20 20:30:54 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 20 18:20:10 2012.

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True, it's just some areas (most notably where the CBE went through) fared much worse than others. Moses simply didn't care that what he did virtually completely wrecked the South Bronx to where by the late 1970s we had Howard Cosell utter the infamous words "Ladies and Gentleman, The Bronx Is Burning" ("The Bronx Is Burning" actually became the title of an ESPN mini-series in 2007 that centered around the 1977 Yankees that included actual footage of some of the '77 season, including the World Series).

Of course, Moses could not have anticipated a drug culture and other things that would hit by the mid-to-late 1960s that also would cause many of the problems the Bronx would have, nor of course could people in the 1940s seen what they did then would cause the problems 20-30 years later that led to much of the problems parts of New York have never completely recovered from in some cases.

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Re: The Rockaway Line of the late 2010's?

Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Apr 20 20:35:04 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Aug 1 08:38:00 2010.

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Though with the casino now at Aqueduct and the possibility of the Convention Center being relocated there, that old LIRR Rockaway branch may very well see new life in the next few years, connected to the Queens Boulevard line as was intended in the 1930s.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Apr 20 21:18:26 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jul 31 12:40:05 2010.

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Absolutely!!

I remember seeing one of Fred (Flintstone) and Barney on the IRT back around 1980-'81 that took up the entire bottom of a subway car.

That was quite common in those days.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by JBar387 on Fri Apr 20 21:22:18 2012, in response to The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SMAZ on Fri Jul 30 22:30:33 2010.

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Noticed that a few clips were from the movie Fort Apache, The Bronx! Nice!

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Dyre Dan on Sat Apr 21 06:38:25 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 20 18:20:10 2012.

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I think the elevated nature of the Bruckner Expressway in the South Bronx makes it especially unattractive to live around. Exhaust fumes (some from traffic on the Boulevard below) get trapped under the structure, making it unpleasant and unhealthy to linger around. The combination of the elevated expressway, the Boulevard below, and the railroad line alongside make an almost impassable barrier that can only be crossed at a few points. The LIE is a mostly surface highway with fairly frequent overpasses, so the atmosphere (literal and figurative) around it is quite different.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 21 06:43:13 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Dyre Dan on Sat Apr 21 06:38:25 2012.

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I don't necessarily disagree, but he DID say "along the highways", that could mean any. There are more highways that business flock to be along than ones that they don't.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 21 06:45:44 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Apr 20 20:30:54 2012.

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True, it's just some areas (most notably where the CBE went through) fared much worse than others. Moses simply didn't care that what he did virtually completely wrecked the South Bronx to where by the late 1970s we had Howard Cosell

And again, many factors led to the fall of the South Bronx. Bushwick, East New York, Brownsville, and neighborhoods all around the city fell just as hard as the South Bronx, and none of those had an "expressway" built through. Similarly, many areas DID have an expressway cut through like Maspeth, Whitestone, Fresh Meadows, and many other areas, and didn't even hint of falling, and remained strong.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 21 06:47:51 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Apr 20 20:30:54 2012.

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Of course, Moses could not have anticipated a drug culture and other things that would hit by the mid-to-late 1960s that also would cause many of the problems the Bronx would have

Now at least you see the full picture. It wasn't just "an expressway" that caused the South Bronx to fall, it was many factors. As mentioned other parts of the city fell just as hard as the South Bronx in that era, with no expressway. Others had no problem at all even with an expressway. The scapegoat of the Cross Bronx is way over used.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 06:52:08 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 21 06:47:51 2012.

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Actually, it was CoOp City that was more responsible for the demise than much else. CBE merely was the other shoe dropping. When the Concourse emptied out back in the early 70's, the north-south avenues on either side of it changed drastically as well. With the wealthier residents moving out, lots of stores closed. When the Concourse died, that started the trend even before the drugs made sections unlivable. By the time the CBE cut the Bronx in half, that was the end of it. Sorry, I grew up there, got to see it up close and personal.

Fortunately, it's coming back slowly now.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 21 07:04:12 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 06:52:08 2012.

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Exactly. And that's what I was trying to say, many factors lead to the fall of the South Bronx. The CBE was perhaps the nail in the coffin, and surely didn't help matters (and yes probably made a bad situation even worse due to it's timing, but it wasn't the cause.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 07:06:00 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 21 07:04:12 2012.

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No, but let's just say it was the final bullet that resulted in death.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 21 07:32:42 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 07:06:00 2012.

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Yes. This is true.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by R36 #9346 on Sat Apr 21 09:45:52 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by LuchAAA on Sat Jul 31 10:24:50 2010.

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6:38 to 7:04 is most obviously Corona Yard.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Apr 21 14:28:33 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 21 07:32:42 2012.

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Definitely, that was just the final bullet. There were many, MANY other factors that led to the demise of the South Bronx that only now is finally recovering, but even now still has a long way to go.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Dyre Dan on Sat Apr 21 15:25:14 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 06:52:08 2012.

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The Cross Bronx was completed in 1963, Co-op City didn't open until almost a decade later. The Concourse was still decent for most of the '60s, so the CBE was hardly the final nail. But Co-op city wouldn't have caused the Concourse to "empty out" unless the Concourse was already having problems by the time Co-op City opened, which I guess it was.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Apr 21 15:54:21 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Apr 21 14:28:33 2012.

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One of the first bullets were the South Bronx projects like the Mitchell and Mill Brook. My paternal grandparents moved out of Eagle Ave in the 1950's when the St Mary's Park Houses were built. Nothing will destroy an area faster than public housing. Remember when that scumbag, John Lindsay tried to build them in Forst Hills, Queens?

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