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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 21 15:57:01 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Apr 21 15:54:21 2012.

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Nothing will destroy an area faster than public housing

Hmm. How come you're on the left over on OTChat but on the right over on Subchat?

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980s

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 21 15:58:23 2012, in response to The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SMAZ on Fri Jul 30 22:30:33 2010.

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Ah, the ravages of leftist policies.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 16:17:27 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Apr 21 15:54:21 2012.

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Do Not go there...

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980s

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 16:21:47 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980s, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 21 15:58:23 2012.

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which is much better than what the RIGHT has done..

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by 5119 on Sat Apr 21 16:22:51 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Dyre Dan on Sat Apr 21 15:25:14 2012.

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The Concourse first started showing signs of decay in 1973. 7 years later, south of Fordham Road, the deterioration was complete.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 17:39:06 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SMAZ on Sun Aug 1 02:07:48 2010.

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NECROPOSTING AT ITS BEST..

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 18:28:06 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Dyre Dan on Sat Apr 21 15:25:14 2012.

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It wasn't the building of the road as much as the psychological boundary it created. Most folks in the Bronx use buses and trains and so what was happening on rubber tires itself didn't much matter. But if you follow the deterioration in the 70's, it largely stopped at that boundary from moving north of it. That's what I meant.

Another major factor to the pyschology of decay was the removal of the 3rd Avenue el which served a major part of that inner corridor away from the Jerome line. When CoOp city opened, they heavily advertised along the Concourse and attracted many residents out of what had been "luxury apartments."

The demise of the Bronx had many factors at play, but those were the major tipping points. Many more subtle things were at play as well that would fill a nice thick book. I didn't bother with the population changes since the Bronx was always sorta "ghettoized" with different social groups living in specific neighborhoods and then those neighborhoods started receiving new residents that weren't like the other ones. Bronx had this factor more so than any other borough back then.

But yes, the CBE became the dividing line, and it was a rather formidable one.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 18:38:21 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 16:17:27 2012.

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Actually, I for one am glad he did. Old Bronx was mostly Irish, Italian and some Hispanic and each group lived in their own separate ghettos. When Blacks moved in, they largely moved into Italian neighborhoods while Hispanics tended to follow the Irish. Anyone into sociology would have a field day with the migration patterns. Folks in the Bronx were largely VERY territorial.

Because the segregation was so blatant in most of the Bronx, some PJ's were built on a political strategic basis much like what was going on in the deep south. So no, I think it's good that this be known and that Elkeeper is backing me up in a way as to how it was there ... that was the attitude of many back then.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 19:33:23 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 18:28:06 2012.

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CBE and CO OP City was the KILL SPOT for the Bronx.

When the TA destroyed the El..thats what basically told them "you dont matter"..driving people who could leave away in droves..

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 19:36:57 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 19:33:23 2012.

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There was really a whole lot more to it than *just* that, but the psyche was absolutely destroyed by those three. And once people give up, you know what happens next. :(

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 19:51:15 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 18:38:21 2012.

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Hmmm..I know...and I know about the attitudes that still prevail today.

The Bronx was terrible..Queens was as bad if not worse..and Brooklyn needed the stock to get rid of all the rundown shacks tenements that were still standing...Brooklyn's major Housing plan during the 50's 60 replaced more shacks[mind you,some of thee SHOULD have been preserved/rebuilt at a cheaper cost than building UGLY monster highrises]
Manhattan built them for unscaled folks..that didnt turn out as planned..
Staten Island built it houses for mostly the elderly..and land clearing/renewals like Brooklyn and Far Rockaway..

Look..I had family that lived in NYCHA..it wasn't a picnic..but to them it was home.
Its not the houses that are the problem..its the "SCREENING" PROCESS for applicants that need fixing..plus removing the tenants that are trouble makers..Also..its about time to make long term tenants purchase their homes,and pay a maintenance fee. you cant buy..you have ta move.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 19:54:28 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 19:51:15 2012.

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When I lived on 230th, it was right across the street from Marble Hill. Funny how what people normally think about PJ's ain't true. Most of the families that lived there were teachers, worked for the city, transit, you name it. And those who were on public assistance were just like the folks that lived across the street on "our side" ... thems was my friends over there.

Can't teach reality to those who've never seen it. :(

That said though, the way that various social groups clustered in the Bronx, and then moved literally en masse when new people came in was a very interesting thing to watch and observe. And woe be ye if you crossed the wrong street in many parts of it. :(

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 19:58:11 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 19:36:57 2012.

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well ..I know what happened in the Bronx also happened to Brooklyn..I watch whole nabs destroyed by FIRE[some set by landlords for insurance- 1977 Bushwick comes to mind]..

There were some who tried to step in ..but the whole of North Brooklyn was RED LINED/BLACKLISTED by creditors..which is why only a few of the city's MODEL CITIES projects were ever built there..

I know for a fact the very same thing happened to South Bronx..

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Dyre Dan on Sat Apr 21 19:59:28 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 18:28:06 2012.

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Yeah, the Cross Bronx did seem to be kind of a dividing line for a few years. Then the decay went passed it: Tremont Ave., 183rd St., finally up to Fordham Rd. But maybe without the Cross Bronx as a "firebreak", it would have spread north faster. As for the 3rd Ave. corridor, it was already pretty bad by the time the el was torn down. I remember riding the Bx55 when it first replaced the el, just out of curiosity. It was my first up close and personal, ground level experience of "the ghetto", or at least that's how it seemed to me. I did ride it a few times in order to see how progress was going with the demolition of the el, but once demolition was complete, I didn't ride it any more.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 21 19:59:51 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 19:58:11 2012.

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And that's why it wasn't just the "Cross Bronx" which is used way too much as a scapegoat for the demise of the Bronx. Bushwick, Brownsville, East New York, and other places all over the city fell just as hard as the South Bronx, and they didn't have an "Expressway" anywhere near it to "blame" it on.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 20:01:11 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 19:54:28 2012.

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NARROW is the View,as seen from stubborn eyes...

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 20:06:31 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 21 19:59:51 2012.

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Indeed..

I see the MASTER PLAN concerning those nabs coming fully in to play now as a master land/housing grab..buy cheaply ..build new stock..Sell at way over the top prices.

Gentrification is good for everyone..but the folks who were already there...

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 20:12:40 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 19:58:11 2012.

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Correct ... and curiously (I'm sure it was the same in BK) most of the buildings that burned had been transferred from their original owners to various "property management corps" owned by the very same banks that redlined the nabe right before the building burned. And even more curiously, stripped of copper and anything worth anything BEFORE it burned. Had a friend who was a fire marshall, that's how I heard about all that. But trying to track down the torch who did it was almost impossible.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 20:14:39 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Dyre Dan on Sat Apr 21 19:59:28 2012.

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That bus was entirely useless as a replacement. I'd moved west from Webster just before they decided to take it down. But that definitely killed shopping on lower Fordham down by Sears and further helped destroy that whole corridor. :(

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Apr 21 20:16:48 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 19:36:57 2012.

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If you really want to see an even more stark example of demographic shifts, talke a look at what Far Rockaway--specifically the area east of Beach 32 Street south of the (A) train went through in the late Sixties/early Seventies when I was a kid there. In the Sixties, the block of New Haven Avenue where I lived was heavily Jewish, with a few Irish/Italian families, and the occasional black family here and there. Most black families living in Rockaway then lived almost exclusively in the Arverne/Almeda Houses, or in the 41 Projects. Ocean Village was still over a decade in the future.

Then, a funny thing happened. Black families, taking advantage of growing job opportunities at places like the TA and the nearby, growing JFK Airport, started moving into Far Rock, renting two-family homes that started to appear around 1968 or so. Predictably, the Jewish and Irish families rapidly moved out, selling their houses for whatever they could get--"blockbusting" in the Rockaways was a real-estate specialty--so that by the time I entered junior high in the mid-Seventies, my entire neighborhood's demos had changed radically.

The retail corridor on Beach 20th Street changed, too, as businesses closed and moved away, and even the ambitious little "shopping center" across from the Mott Avenue (A) station fell into disuse and disrepair. Although the lights stayed on in Far Rock during the 1977 blackout (we got our electricity from LILCO, not Con Ed), that event cleared the die-hards off the north end of the Peninsula for good. Of the businesses that were there when I was a child, only the Bell Boy Cleaners and Gino's Pizzeria remain there today. The library, FDNY's "Big House" on Central avenue, the police station and Post Office on Mott also survive.

Today, the Rockaways are getting a revival. But it's taken four decades to undo what fear and prejudice--unfounded, at that--the crime rate, IIRC, never went up during my entire childhood, right up until I left for college in the early '80s, on my block--had wrought...

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 20:17:14 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 20:01:11 2012.

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Sadly, never paid much attention to what was going on south of me there on "Long Island" but it does seem remarkably similar as far as the redlining and land grab bits go. But as to the people themselves, never could understand what all the drama about the projects was about other than being poorly built, poorly maintained and stark inside. Then there's those elevators that nobody in their right mind would use because if you got trapped, they'd find your bones in there. Eventually. :(

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 21 20:26:13 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 20:17:14 2012.

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what all the drama about the projects was about other than being poorly built, poorly maintained and stark inside.

That fits into that crappy 50's-70's architecture from the other thread....

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 20:30:17 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Apr 21 20:16:48 2012.

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hmmm..I read somewhere The Rockaways were hit REALLY HARD by redlining..

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 21 20:31:20 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 20:06:31 2012.

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Bedford Stuyvesant was in trouble in the 50's already. It began to fall long before it began in Bushwick. Also....no Expressway built through it anywhere near it. I don't believe Beford-Stuyvesant fell quite as hard as Bushwick did though, even though it was in trouble many years before Bushwick began to fall.
I don't understand Bedford-Stutvesants fall, the housing stock there is simply amazing.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Apr 21 20:33:52 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 20:30:17 2012.

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They were. The whole neighborhood changed literally overnight. Between the time I entered kindergarten and the time I got to junior high, EVERYTHING changed.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 21 20:36:15 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Apr 21 20:33:52 2012.

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That's how it happened in many of the neighborhoods when they fell, they fell extremely quickly.
Bushwick was a viable neighborhood in the late 60's. Just less than a decade later it was a burnt out shell of a neighborhood, and pure hell.
Thing is, the neighborhood DID become bad. The crime and squalor followed.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 21 20:37:44 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 20:14:39 2012.

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Neighborhoods would kill for that sort of transit, and here they had it, and ripped it down. Same with the Lower Myrtle. It makes no sense replacing a rail line with a bus.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 20:41:42 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 21 20:26:13 2012.

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you aint kidding..

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 20:45:27 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 20:17:14 2012.

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yup..problem is..NYCHA is akin to what a slumlord would be..barebones with everything they do..substandard is being NICE,When it doesnt really have to be that way.



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Re: Bushwick Before and After Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by orange blossom special on Sat Apr 21 20:47:02 2012, in response to Bushwick Before and After Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Aug 1 19:11:06 2010.

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I wish they were numbered so i can comment on each one. The new buildings up top lack character.
The tree'd street is beautiful and a good job.
The one building is the same, except now it's closed instead of even being a quasi-pawn looking place. etc etc.

Seems mixed.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 20:51:23 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 21 20:31:20 2012.

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I explained what happened to Bed-Sty sometime ago..

the short of it is..People stopped caring..
..poverty..lack of resources..drugs..and Welfare[instead of jobs] killed any hope people had. Schools were substandard..the neighborhood was given up on by the city..

My parents worked for the City back then..and even they had much to complain about.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 21:10:33 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 21 20:37:44 2012.

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Yep ... and though my only interaction with the lower Myrt was joyriding it, it had poor passenger loading on weekends like the 3rd did. I saw all the parallels when that got taken out too. :(

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Re: Bushwick Before and After Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 21 21:10:36 2012, in response to Re: Bushwick Before and After Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by orange blossom special on Sat Apr 21 20:47:02 2012.

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The "new buildings" up top was the original Hope Gardens project, which was built in the early 80's. Yes, lack any architectual style and character. The newer hope gardens buildings are much more attractive.
Don't get me wrong, they are still "projects", but they are much better than the high rise style.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 21:13:19 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Apr 21 20:16:48 2012.

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Yep ... through the 60's, into the early 70's, I had friends whose parents lived in the Irish ghetto there on the beach. I forget where though because we'd often go there by car rather than the "what train?" And it was already starting back then. Eventually, nobody I knew lived there anymore. :(

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 21:15:36 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 20:45:27 2012.

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It was already getting bad in the 60's at Marble Hill. If something broke, it stayed that way unless the tenant fixed it themselves. What I remember most though was the elevators constantly crapping out. I learned how to operate fire switches and bypass switches and how to release the doors and taught friends how to do it because ... well ... you had to.

I can only imagine how bad it got when "deferred maintenance" kicked in for real. :(

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 21:16:49 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 21 20:26:13 2012.

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They were designed by "progressive republicans" as warehouses for the poor. Literally. Cold Storage buildings got better concrete block work. :(

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Re: Bushwick Before and After Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 21:19:41 2012, in response to Re: Bushwick Before and After Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 21 21:10:36 2012.

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I watched them being built..on a pile of dirt mounds left over from that huge fire that destroyed a large swath of Bushwick. Use to ride the 52 bus through the worst of it to visit family.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 21:22:12 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 21:15:36 2012.

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You mean like it is today?

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 21:27:13 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 21:16:49 2012.

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They also fit the mold of most sanitariums..same sterile walls, same crappy elevators..same institutional appearance. Just what Robert Moses wanted them to look like..to show his utter disdain for "poor people"..

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 21 21:32:06 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 21:16:49 2012.

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LOL. Republicans.

It's what all architecture was like in that era. It fits perfectly into the other thread about what that era's architecture for buildings was like.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 21:32:23 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 21:22:12 2012.

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Last time I was down there, looked like they replaced the windows at least on the sides facing the train at least. But wouldn't be surprised at all if that was about all that was ever done. :(

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 21:33:41 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 21:27:13 2012.

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Yep ... that was exactly my take when I first set foot in Marble Hill with some friends. The puke green, the shitty tiles, the whole nine yards. :(

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 21:35:24 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 21 21:32:06 2012.

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Ever been in the PJ's? ... I mean upstairs. They were uniquely depressing. And though you may scoff at the "republicans" that's who the "liberals" were. And also the reason why the party is in such denial of their past today trashing their own word.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by J trainloco on Sat Apr 21 21:44:18 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 21:16:49 2012.

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The concept for what became the projects was championed by one of the most respected architects/planners of all time. The idea certainly was not that they were "storing poor people", but that if you had to live in a dense environment, at least you could have your building surrounded by some open/green space. Unfortunately, that space is usually either fenced off, used as parking, or dangerous.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 21 21:52:21 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by J trainloco on Sat Apr 21 21:44:18 2012.

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As with most public works projects like this, while the intent is good, and it looks wonderful on paper....in the real world it often doesn't work so well.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 21:57:49 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by J trainloco on Sat Apr 21 21:44:18 2012.

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Certainly wasn't their thinking at the time, but that's still the end result. Ever see how those things are built though? They ARE built just like warehouses between the thin steel beams and the cement blocks. My comment there was architectural as well as the way it all worked out.

Funny thing ... when I did a stint pulling in antenna wire at Co Op City, came to see that "Coop" city was built the EXACT same way.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 21 22:21:09 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 21:57:49 2012.

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Exactly what I was talking about in the other thread about the crappy architecture and buildings from that era.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 22:35:39 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 21 22:21:09 2012.

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Don't feel bad ... also had to pull a lot of wires in the Empire State Plaza Tower Building ... SAME shit. :(

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by J trainloco on Sat Apr 21 22:43:42 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 21:57:49 2012.

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Yeah, i've spent a lot of time in the Ps. There's nothing wrong with CMU and concrete slab construction, the problem is that they went absolutely as cheap as they could with finishes.

Never been to Co-op city, but from the outside, it looks like they did more with the finishes.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Apr 21 22:46:49 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Apr 21 20:16:48 2012.

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the block of New Haven Avenue where I lived

Snicker. My nephew lives around there now. I still get a little apprehensive when I wait in the car for him when I pick him up, but then I'm used to Cambria Heights and Queens Village. :-)

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