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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 22:51:57 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by J trainloco on Sat Apr 21 22:43:42 2012.

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They did indeed ... but inside the cores, same old same old.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 23:00:20 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 21:57:49 2012.

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Yup..exactly the same way..but with better treatments.
There are NYCHA buildings out there that could give structures like CO-OP CITY a nice run for its money..but most are "senior housing" only for disabled and elderly.



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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by J trainloco on Sat Apr 21 23:04:15 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 20:06:31 2012.

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Gentrification is good for everyone..but the folks who were already there...

No one forces people to leave. And if they choose to do so, the value of their property usually spikes.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 23:06:32 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 23:00:20 2012.

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Yep ... although I can't understand the vertical stacking for elderly and disabled, you'd think they'd be better candidates for the town house style. The ONE thing I remember about the PJ's was how rarely the elevators worked. :(

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 23:07:31 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by J trainloco on Sat Apr 21 23:04:15 2012.

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In the Bronx at least, once your building burned, there weren't a whole lot of other options other than to move away.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 23:11:29 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by J trainloco on Sat Apr 21 22:43:42 2012.

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The "CORE" is the same...the grounds are the same..bottom line, the basic design is the same..with "P.J's" being the least to get the "fluff".

Got a few friends who live in Mitchel Lama owned buildings..and they are just like public housing,*EXCEPT carpet well kept elevators outdoor porches/ledges..

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by J trainloco on Sat Apr 21 23:13:28 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 23:07:31 2012.

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I surmise that Edwards! is talking about the current pattern of white folks moving back into these neighborhoods.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 23:16:26 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by J trainloco on Sat Apr 21 23:13:28 2012.

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I suppose he can explain it better than I can. In the new construction in the south Bronx, I was noticing some rather well to do Hispanics were buying up and it was looking GOOD.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 23:24:38 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by J trainloco on Sat Apr 21 23:04:15 2012.

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Now you know that's not exactly true...or you haven't been exactly paying attention to whats going around north Brooklyn.

I've been offered by buyers..turned them ALL DOWN both here and upstate..by East Indians and "urban explorers"..both[as I found out]with ill intentions.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 23:31:16 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 21 23:16:26 2012.

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the NEW housing stock[one of which i own] is made of crappy sheet rock on metal frames..sandwiched together in a row..

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 22 00:28:40 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 23:31:16 2012.

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You're shitting me! :(

(obviously you're not) ... so much for the "better construction" argument then ... and I thought they were building shit around here. Wow. :(

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Edwards! on Sun Apr 22 00:51:52 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 22 00:28:40 2012.

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Made like tissue paper for sure..hell..I can hear my neighbor next door singing in her shower!

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 22 00:58:32 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Edwards! on Sun Apr 22 00:51:52 2012.

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Welllll ... if she's good, that's one thing but living in a Hampton Inn must really suck. :(

When the market turns around eventually, I'd dump that load. Then again, I'm used to quiet out here ... that'd make me crazy ...

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Edwards! on Sun Apr 22 01:13:38 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 22 00:58:32 2012.

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can do that..but then id be headed back that way...if you know what i mean..and im not ready to come back..yet.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 22 02:05:24 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Edwards! on Sun Apr 22 01:13:38 2012.

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I hear ya ... well cuz ... you know where to stop off first. :)

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by R 36 ML 9542 on Sun Apr 22 02:12:44 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 19:51:15 2012.

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Pardon me asking this is the south Bx better than it was about 30 years ago?

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Kevin from Midwood on Sun Apr 22 02:13:10 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 21 22:21:09 2012.

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Hmm, sounds interesting. Where is that thread?

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Bounad Hanhic on Sun Apr 22 05:17:02 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by R 36 ML 9542 on Sun Apr 22 02:12:44 2012.

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how isn't it better

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Apr 22 06:22:33 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Kevin from Midwood on Sun Apr 22 02:13:10 2012.

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It's in OTChat. It's a diversion in the Tebow is booed thread. I don't think the subject line was changed, but it's a pretty long subthread within it.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by J trainloco on Sun Apr 22 10:31:14 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 23:31:16 2012.

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Nothing wrong with that type of construction. Steel stud framing is not much different from wood framing, except it does better with rotting than wood.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by J trainloco on Sun Apr 22 10:37:02 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 21 23:24:38 2012.

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What do you mean it's not true? Aside from some people around the new arena, which was not a minority neighborhood, no one HAS to leave. Many people I know wanted to leave because they wanted they remember North Brooklyn when it was bad, and now that their property is sometimes as much as 10 or more times what they bought it at, they see their chance to leave and move to Long Island, Jersey, or a whole different region.

I've been offered by buyers..turned them ALL DOWN both here and upstate..by East Indians and "urban explorers"..both[as I found out]with ill intentions.

Exactly, no one forced you to sell.

They way I see it is that the only people who are really getting the short end of the stick are the people who were renting.

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Re: Bushwick Before and After Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by orange blossom special on Sun Apr 22 12:19:33 2012, in response to Re: Bushwick Before and After Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 21 21:10:36 2012.

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Then they're nice for projects, i thought they were just apartments.
Looking at them again now I see the bars on the windows.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Apr 22 12:51:58 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 21 20:36:15 2012.

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Jamaica's decline was more gradual. It began in the late 60's and culminated with the blackout looting and el removal 10 years later. Then crack hit. Jamaica during the crack epidemic was BAD, and I experienced it every day in 1985-6 when I went to Edison.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Edwards! on Sun Apr 22 14:32:17 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 22 02:05:24 2012.

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you'd think i'd pass up a BINGBONG meal?

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Apr 22 15:03:36 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 21 15:57:01 2012.

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I consider myself a moderate. But no one, left or right, can deny that public housing will change a neighborhood for the worse. And it almost happened in Forest Hills!

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Apr 22 15:43:38 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Apr 21 20:16:48 2012.

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Let us not forget the damage that public housing did in the Rockaways. If you wanted to give poor people a chance, why would you warehouse them way out there? It was a 'lose-lose' situation for everyone there, black or white!

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Jeff Rosen on Sun Apr 22 16:19:37 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Apr 20 20:30:54 2012.

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Sometimes I get the feeling that the idea that Moses ruined the Bronx with the Cross Bronx Expressway is more of a bias against Moses by Robert Caro than reality. I really can't believe Moses was as much a villain as Caro portrayed in his 1700 pages.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Edwards! on Sun Apr 22 16:26:33 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Apr 22 15:43:38 2012.

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what "damage" did it do?

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Apr 22 16:28:51 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Apr 22 15:43:38 2012.

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The prevailing wisdom in the 1950s was the same with public housing and nursing homes: Stick 'em out of sight. Hence, the location of both in the Rockaways (east of Beach 119, of course. No project or nursing home was EVER built in the Rock west of B. 119, except the Neponsit HHC facility, and that place closed down about 13 years ago.

There is a school of thought that the extension of the IND in the Fifties played a role in the changes to the Rockaways, but subway service usually increases the desirability of a neighborhood--and Rockaway is beachfront property, at that--but as history shows, the conversion of LIRR trackage for use by subway trains had mixed results, at best. To this day, there has been NO development of the strip between the IND tracks and the Boardwalk from B. 32 Street to B. 54th Street. This, in spite of the fact that the area has had subway service for 56 years!

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Apr 22 16:57:47 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Apr 22 16:28:51 2012.

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Thank you for the info. I used to go to the Rockaways from 1956-1962. My great-aunt lived in Highland Park, Brooklyn and had a summer home in Broad Channel. We used to take the "A" or "E" to the peninsula, especially to the beach in Rockaway Park.
When I went back, 20 years later, I was dismayed to see what had happened in certain areas.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by R 36 ML 9542 on Sun Apr 22 17:22:41 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Apr 22 15:03:36 2012.

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What I meant was have the Abandoned Apt buildings been torn down new homes or what have you been built?

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 22 17:33:51 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by J trainloco on Sun Apr 22 10:31:14 2012.

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But as they learned in office buildings, metal studs AMPLIFY noise. Toss some sheetrock on top of them and you've got speakers. :(

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Apr 22 17:51:45 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 22 17:33:51 2012.

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This is why 1515 Broadway, home of MTV (of all things) became known as "Twist-and-Shout" right after it opened. Seems the structure excelled at carrying street noise from Times Square up to high floors. As this was not the kind of noise MTV's execs wanted, they had to go back in and soundproof the place...LOL!

PS, this is also the exact same building would-be car bomber Faisal Shahzad was trying to bring down, when he set his explosive-laden SUV on the corner of 44th and Broadway...

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Re: Bushwick Before and After Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Subbus aka ENY Local on Sun Apr 22 18:23:12 2012, in response to Bushwick Before and After Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Aug 1 19:11:06 2010.

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Thanks for the pics. Excellent pics. I still have family in the area. Very close to where these pics were taken. I do remember the area when I visited them back then. Now I get a good view of the area every week while waiting for that Mikey at Myrtle-Wyckoff. Coming up the escalator from the L and then taking a good look down Gates Ave towards the J train....

Once again, thanks for the then and now pics, especially then.....

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 22 18:26:45 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Apr 22 17:51:45 2012.

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Similar story when I built a TV studio in the Tower Building at the Empire State Plaza. OGS dutifully installed metal and sheetrock for the space, HVAC (without dampers) and when we went to do "room sound" check once it was done, we could hear every bus tire passing over the joints on the road 21 floors below.

They wouldn't permit wood, they wouldn't permit a second wall (owing to weight loads) and so their "solution" was to glue that crappy foamy stuff all over - same foamy stuff that lit up the joint in Rhode Island that fire departments hate. And to top it all off, they installed below the ceiling sprinklers to spread the fire if it ever went up. Didn't help.

Lesson: Never build a studio in a skyscraper - try to find a nice basement. :)

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Apr 22 18:46:01 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Jeff Rosen on Sun Apr 22 16:19:37 2012.

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You are correct. Moses has been used as a scapegoat for the bronx deterioration, blaming "the expressway". The Bronx was in trouble long before the expressway. Many areas that also had an expressway carved through it remained excellent neighborhoods.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Apr 22 18:47:55 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Apr 22 15:03:36 2012.

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"Projects" being built in a neighborhood is the final nail in the coffin for an area. Not much good can come of it. That said, many neighborhoods that got high rise "projects" were in trouble before the projects came, but the projects certainly didn't help matters.

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Re: Bushwick Before and After Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Apr 22 18:50:29 2012, in response to Re: Bushwick Before and After Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by orange blossom special on Sun Apr 22 12:19:33 2012.

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Yeah, they are projects, some of the first low rise projects. That's all what would build in what was a dying neighborhood. The newer Hope Gardens projects had a little more character than the ones in the photos.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Apr 22 18:53:10 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by J trainloco on Sun Apr 22 10:37:02 2012.

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You are correct. Anyone that bought in Bushwick during the bad times made out like bandits now that it's gentrifying. Anyone that owned only did good (even with the economy collapsing, they still are way ahead).
Renters, yeah, that's another story, but if you rent, that's par the course.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 22 18:55:06 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Apr 22 18:46:01 2012.

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That may well be ... but when the CBE cut the Bronx in half, the damage done was psychological. Just as real to those who felt it ...

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Apr 22 19:16:05 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 22 18:55:06 2012.

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It can be taken two ways. As you said, it became a dividing line. South of it was hell. It can also be seen as a stop line in the severe deterioration.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying it didn't contribute, I am just saying that the bronx would have fell with or without it. The Bronx was in trouble even without the expressway. Other neighborhoods like Bushwick, Brownsville, East New York, Bedford Stuyvesant, and the list goes on....all fell without any expressway cutting through any where near them. Similarly, other neighborhoods like Maspeth, Whitestone, Rego Park, Fresh Meadows, and the list goes on.....did fine and remained strong even after the expressway cut through them.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 22 19:41:31 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Apr 22 19:16:05 2012.

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No argument there ... but I think my point is getting missed here. CBE as a divider ended up making it *OK* for the south to deteriorate further. It established a border. And it seems as though the city went along with that too ... preserve the northern territories at the expense of the southern territories. THAT was my point about "psychological" ... it established an official border. :(

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Apr 22 19:46:56 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 22 19:41:31 2012.

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I don't disagree at all....I am just saying, that can also be looked at as it saved it from going to further hell north of it too.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Edwards! on Sun Apr 22 20:20:12 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by J trainloco on Sun Apr 22 10:37:02 2012.

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One thing I never had to do here was FRONT...IF I say there are "shins" going on..then you best believe me when I tell you,since I had dealings from a renters and owners point of view..
When it comes to my money..and my business..I dont have time to play stupid games.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Edwards! on Sun Apr 22 20:24:28 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Apr 22 16:57:47 2012.

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What could that have been..the "land clearing/reclamation" program Robert Moses initiated to "clear away the slums" for his expressway..or for his "new housing stock"...to bring greens spaces to the "hood"..

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Edwards! on Sun Apr 22 20:27:50 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Apr 22 16:28:51 2012.

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The new houses being built there by the beachfront now are sweet...wanted one myself untill I saw the asking price..

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by Mitch45 on Sun Apr 22 20:43:05 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jul 31 07:37:16 2010.

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Yep, I remember that too. I used to ride the J from Sutphin Boulevard to Fulton Street because it was a one seat ride from the courthouses in Jamaica to where I then worked in lower Manhattan. This was in the early '90s and the stretches of the el over Broadway between Crescent Street and Marcy Avenue were scenes out of a post-apocalyptic movie.

Thankfully all that is - largely - behind us.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by J trainloco on Sun Apr 22 21:00:36 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by Edwards! on Sun Apr 22 20:20:12 2012.

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There's definitely shens going on, and i've heard of some of the stories of people claiming they'll "help" you get out of your bad mortgage. But if you own, gentrification only helps you, even if you choose to stay.

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Re: Bushwick Before and After Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by DaRidgewoodBusBuff on Sun Apr 22 23:29:33 2012, in response to Bushwick Before and After Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Aug 1 19:11:06 2010.

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Awesome pics. I'd rather have the Bushwich of the early 1990s. It was like a party every night. Load rap music playing. Trash dirt yards. The tough Bushwick which I was born in.

I can't stand the rich conversion to try to make it a wussy area like Forest Hills. Shitty dorkey guys haning around Wyckoff now.

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Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Apr 23 03:03:01 2012, in response to Re: The South Bronx of the 1980's, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Apr 22 19:46:56 2012.

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And as a former resident, I think more could have been done to at least save "The Hub" at least ... what blew my socks off personally though was watching the area around the Stadium burn.

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