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Utica Avenue subway

Posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 22 19:12:12 2021

Utica

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by GojiMet86 on Mon Feb 22 19:33:06 2021, in response to Utica Avenue subway, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 22 19:12:12 2021.

As has been said before here and on many other sites, the second phase of the 2nd Avenue subway should be going to the Bronx.

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(1569215)

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by zac on Mon Feb 22 19:33:56 2021, in response to Utica Avenue subway, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 22 19:12:12 2021.

I'll believe it when I'm riding it, just as I did with 2nd Ave.

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 22 19:34:43 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by GojiMet86 on Mon Feb 22 19:33:06 2021.

Wouldn't that be hard to do if it turns west to access 125th/Lex ?

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Feb 22 19:42:01 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 22 19:34:43 2021.

No problem. 125th is for short turns, thru to the Bronx the full route. Not very different from the 3 and the 2. You take the train to the station you need.
IMHO there is zero reason 2nd AVe can't be worked on at the same time as Utica. Prtint the money!

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 22 19:44:10 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Feb 22 19:42:01 2021.

Can't send SAS to the Bronx that way. SAS is "B" Division. Lex is "A" Division.

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(1569222)

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by randyo on Mon Feb 22 19:49:52 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 22 19:44:10 2021.

However, Lex was built to BMT dimensions as were the Jerome and Pelham Lines so a bit of appropriate reconstruction might be able to do something.

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 22 19:57:00 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by randyo on Mon Feb 22 19:49:52 2021.

Then Jerome and Pelham Lines become SAS only, and no through service to Brooklyn. Lex service becomes only WPR. Lower Lex can't be converted to "B" Division.



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(1569225)

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by jailhousedoc on Mon Feb 22 20:19:49 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 22 19:57:00 2021.

then send the Second Ave. subway north through Third Ave in the Bronx to intersect the Pelham line at 138th and Third and the Lexington at 149th and Third, and then continue north via Webster Ave. After going north to Gun Hill Road, an east turn to serve Co-Op City could be had.

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 22 20:21:49 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by zac on Mon Feb 22 19:33:56 2021.

Are there water table issues ?

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by Catfish 44 on Mon Feb 22 21:02:27 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 22 20:21:49 2021.

Water table? Build a beautiful new el!

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 22 22:02:15 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by GojiMet86 on Mon Feb 22 19:33:06 2021.

Petition

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(1569231)

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 22 22:03:37 2021, in response to Utica Avenue subway, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 22 19:12:12 2021.

The Triboro BX or Rockway Beach Reactivation would be more cost effective.

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Re: Utica Avenue subway / SAS Phase 2+

Posted by Ancient Mariner on Mon Feb 22 22:13:25 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 22 19:34:43 2021.

I've said this before, but for about a zillion good reasons, the SAS should turn EAST around 125th. It would then be a straight shot across Randalls Island and along the north shore of Queens into LaGuardia. No NIMBYs in the way, and the ROW could be on the surface for much of the route, saving tunnelling costs. A hell of a lot better than our dimwitted Governor's plans for airport transit.

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Feb 22 22:17:12 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 22 19:44:10 2021.

You misunderstand my idea. The current buzz is to have SAS turn to terminate under the 125th St MN/CDOT station. I'm fine with that as a short turn, but I believe the the main SAS should continue straight into the Bronx, As to whether SAS should take over the Dyre, that idea has been around since the NYW&B went belly up. I would also extend it.
Thus E180th would mirror QBP as in both divisions there for convenient transfers.

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Feb 22 22:21:36 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 22 22:03:37 2021.

Do them both! I am so tired of transit being cheated of needed expansions as we waste mega billions on crap we don't need which hasn't beaten the Taliban in 19 1/2 years. Making our cities easier to get around in an important goal for us all.

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Re: Utica Avenue subway / SAS Phase 2+

Posted by Catfish 44 on Tue Feb 23 00:34:30 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway / SAS Phase 2+, posted by Ancient Mariner on Mon Feb 22 22:13:25 2021.

They could add a stop on Rikerís Island.

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by randyo on Tue Feb 23 01:12:54 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 22 19:57:00 2021.

That was actually never the plan. After the B of T took over the Dyre Ave Line, the plan for the SAS was to take over the Pelham Line and connect it to the Dyre which was originally part of the IND despite using IRT equipment and being shown on the Hagstrom maps as an IRT line. Sometime in the 1970s, plans were modified to leave Pelham with the IRT and instead connect the SAS to the Wh Pl Rd Line N/O E180 since that like Jerome and Pelham was also built to BMT dimensions. Of course when the money started running out in the 1970s all of those plans went goodbye.

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by randyo on Tue Feb 23 01:25:29 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Feb 22 22:17:12 2021.

I would still like to see an eventual hookup between the SAS and Dyre but at the moment it would be a little more involved than it would have been a few years ago. As originally envisioned, the SAS would emerge from a portal just N/O the Harlem River and utilize the entire NYW&B ROW from its original terminal all the way to Dyre. Over the years most of the ROW S/O E180 had been destroyed and its space built over with housing. If the SAS were to be reconnected to Dyre, a new subway of considerable length would now have to be constructed all the way from the north side of the river to a point just S/O E180 where it could be connected to the Dyre. Lokking at my Bronx map, it might still be possible to utilize the NYW&B ROW from the river to around 174 St but then a short structure would still have to be built to connect it to the Dyre line itself.

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(1569241)

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by randyo on Tue Feb 23 01:29:37 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 22 20:21:49 2021.

The original plans for both the Utica subway and the Nostrand extension called for both lines to emerge as el structures at around Ave M and continue to their respective terminals as els. These days the NIMBYs wouldnít allow it.

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by LuchAAA on Tue Feb 23 04:16:55 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by randyo on Tue Feb 23 01:29:37 2021.

Really?

I think the YIMBY's have emerged as a force and can get things done.

People want to live in a condos with a balcony, high-speed internet, and a train nearby. Few people want a family so they're not worried about trains "changing the neighborhood" like they used to.

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by Mitch45 on Tue Feb 23 07:07:38 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Feb 22 19:42:01 2021.

If ridership doesnít rebound to pre-Covid levels it makes little sense to build a Utica subway.

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by Joe V on Tue Feb 23 07:12:45 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by randyo on Tue Feb 23 01:12:54 2021.

By turning it west, the plan now is to bob-tail it at 125th & Lex, and that is the end of that.

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Re: Utica Avenue subway / SAS Phase 2+

Posted by Joe V on Tue Feb 23 07:14:32 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway / SAS Phase 2+, posted by Ancient Mariner on Mon Feb 22 22:13:25 2021.

I don't think subway access to LGA via 125th would be too popular with LGA passengers.

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by Joe V on Tue Feb 23 07:15:26 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by LuchAAA on Tue Feb 23 04:16:55 2021.

Tell that to Astoria.

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Feb 23 07:47:10 2021, in response to Utica Avenue subway, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 22 19:12:12 2021.

Oh Oho... Here we go again.

Well, if we have to have a Democrat administration, we may as well get a new subway line out of the deal!

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Feb 23 07:48:24 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 22 19:44:10 2021.

Sure you can. There is no division on third avenue at the moment!

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Feb 23 07:50:05 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by jailhousedoc on Mon Feb 22 20:19:49 2021.

LION wood send the 2nd Ave Subway north on Third Avenue and terminate at Fordham University.

Give them more stairways to play under!

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Re: Utica Avenue subway / SAS Phase 2+

Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Feb 23 07:52:06 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway / SAS Phase 2+, posted by Joe V on Tue Feb 23 07:14:32 2021.

That is what they have now with a bus.

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Feb 23 07:59:11 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 22 20:21:49 2021.

Yes. Now we are back on Utica Avenue... after a short tour up to the Bronx.

So, Run the Nostrand Avenue line south on Nostrand to Emmons Avenue, with another branch running to Flatbush to the Kings Maul. The Utica Line would run from the Empire line all the way to Flatbush and thence to Kings Maul.

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Feb 23 08:01:36 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by Catfish 44 on Mon Feb 22 21:02:27 2021.

You sound like Donald Trump trying to build a beautiful new wall.

As much as the peeps on Utica could use more service, methingks the el would meet opposition.

With modern technologies, I thank that the subway would work. Just build it in a big long bath-tub.

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Feb 23 08:07:04 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by LuchAAA on Tue Feb 23 04:16:55 2021.

Red in the Post... world wide sperm count is going down... Blames environment... includes the aminal kingdom!

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Feb 23 08:12:15 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by Joe V on Tue Feb 23 07:15:26 2021.

Astoria.

LION has big plans for Astoria...

Extend a SINGLE TRACK from either track (or both) from Astoria to the Con Ed plant.

There is enough under used real estate at the plant to build an elevated yard there, and so Con-Ed would not loose any ground space.
Yes the land is an environmental disaster zone, so MTA and NYS help to remediate it (bonus to Con-Ed..)

Build new office park and residentail buildings above the yard.

Everybody gets rich over this

AND

Lion gets to put the (RR) train bask on Astoria where it belongs)

Bdway Local via 59th St / Bway Exp via 63rd
Look Ma! No Interlocking!
Bway local via tunnel
/ Bway Exp via Bridge... Look Ma! No interlocking!

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by Catfish 44 on Tue Feb 23 08:13:49 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Feb 23 07:59:11 2021.

No thanks

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Tue Feb 23 08:19:39 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Feb 23 07:59:11 2021.

Empire line? Did you mean Eastern Parkway?

Nostrand: 2 to Emmons, 5 to Kings Plaza
Utica: 4 to Kings Plaza, 3 to Newlots 24/7

May need a new yard, maybe neer Floyd Bennett Field (if there is room). Maybe a mini-yard south of Emmons, 4-5 tracks (underground)



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Re: Utica Avenue subway / SAS Phase 2+

Posted by Joe V on Tue Feb 23 09:04:49 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway / SAS Phase 2+, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Feb 23 07:52:06 2021.

Except nobody from mid Manhattan schleps up to 125th Street to use it to get to LGA.

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by zac on Tue Feb 23 09:46:33 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Tue Feb 23 08:19:39 2021.

There is no south of Emmons. Emmons is right up against Sheepshead Bay.

And Floyd Bennett has water issues, the whole area does, and it is a long way from Kings Plaza, much longer than they would build just to get to a yard. When these lines were first proposed there were probably empty lots for building but that is long ago gone. Maybe in that swamp called Marine Park they could build something but my guess is environmental issues wouldn't allow it.

If it weren't for Kings Plaza I'd say they should end the line at the intersection of Utica and Flatbush and not go all the way, but the businesses would howl at the idea of not including them in the plan.


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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Feb 23 10:08:48 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Feb 22 22:21:36 2021.

Well, now that we have all masturbated over the posibilities let the LION offer the suggestions of him.

1. No new subways in Brooklyn at this time.
2. Set up express bus service (with big bendy buses
ROUTE KH = Bay Ridge Parkway, East to Kings Highway, to Eastern Parkway
ROUTE FH = 99th St FHP north, thence NE to Greenwood Cemetary, then east on Caton Ave to east on Linden Blvd to S Conduit to thence north on Springfiled Blvd to Grand Central Parkway.

These buses would be free on the assumption that most people will have to pay for their ride once they get to a subway station.

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Re: Utica Avenue subway / SAS Phase 2+

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Feb 23 10:09:24 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway / SAS Phase 2+, posted by Joe V on Tue Feb 23 09:04:49 2021.

True, but a substantial number of folks come down from the northern suburbs to go to LGA. As more people flee the city, more people would use a service like that.

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Re: Utica Avenue subway / SAS Phase 2+

Posted by Joe V on Tue Feb 23 11:09:15 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway / SAS Phase 2+, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Feb 23 10:09:24 2021.

I wouldn't be caught dead transferring in East Harlem.

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by Dan on Tue Feb 23 11:12:46 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by LuchAAA on Tue Feb 23 04:16:55 2021.

'People want to live in a condos with a balcony, high-speed internet, and a train nearby. Few people want a family so they're not worried about trains "changing the neighborhood" like they used to.'

Some people want to live that, all jammed together. In the real world suburban home sales, and outer borough home sales in less dense area are very strong. In my S.I. neighborhood new 2-family homes sell in the $1M range, because there is no subway nearby. Every home has a driveway which is a plus too, especially for those coming from Brooklyn. Subways often bring in a lower element. Northeast Queens is seeing the same strong housing market phenomena, again no subways.

But the city needs to encourage more condo construction in Bklyn, Queens and the Bronx. Home/condo/co-op owners take pride in their homes and their neighborhoods, which is better for the city.

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by Catfish 44 on Tue Feb 23 11:33:49 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by zac on Tue Feb 23 09:46:33 2021.

Itís a nonsense idea in the first place.

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Re: Utica Avenue subway / SAS Phase 2+

Posted by Catfish 44 on Tue Feb 23 11:39:55 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway / SAS Phase 2+, posted by Joe V on Tue Feb 23 11:09:15 2021.

Why?

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by zac on Tue Feb 23 11:50:03 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by Catfish 44 on Tue Feb 23 11:33:49 2021.

Which was my premise way up the thread. I'll believe it when I'm actually riding it.

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Re: Utica Avenue subway / SAS Phase 2+

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Feb 23 11:52:24 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway / SAS Phase 2+, posted by Joe V on Tue Feb 23 11:09:15 2021.

Seems you haven't been there in awhile. Gentrification has hit Harlem big time. Even back then, it wasn't as "unsafe" as stereotypically perceived. When I lived in Beacon, I used to take my son to Yankee Games (before the Yankees stop was built) via MN to 125, then walk to the 125 & Lex subway sta & catch the #4 to the Stadium, and back, many times...and lived to tell about it.

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Feb 23 12:26:04 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Feb 23 07:50:05 2021.

ROAR! I almost agree with Lion. Send the SAS north under 3rd Ave, but extend it across east Gun Hill Rd to Bartow Ave, and then to Coop City.

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(1569286)

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by Joe V on Tue Feb 23 12:38:53 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Feb 23 12:26:04 2021.

Has that ship sailed with regards to construction and engineering plans ?

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Feb 23 12:48:23 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Feb 23 07:59:11 2021.

Are we ASS-uming that this extension would be via Nostrand Ave, and not Utica Ave? Since the IRT Utica Ave/Eastern Pky Ave station ends 60 feet due west of the intersection, itself, this route would probably be easier to build.

Just remember, folks, the line would HAVE to be built by mob-owned Schiavone Construction. The same great ontime performers who took over a decade to build Archer Ave and the Phase I Second Ave subways!



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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Feb 23 12:51:21 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by Joe V on Tue Feb 23 12:38:53 2021.

Probably! I think it sailed away with its sister ship, "SS Utica".

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Re: Utica Avenue subway

Posted by #4 SeaBeachFred on Tue Feb 23 12:56:36 2021, in response to Re: Utica Avenue subway, posted by zac on Tue Feb 23 11:50:03 2021.

Pardon me for perhaps acting like an ignoramus but living in California and only a semi-annual visitor to New York, I had always thought the Utica Ave subway was the #4 train that terminated at Utica Avenue. Will you and someone please enlighten if we are talking about another Utica Avenue train

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