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| Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) (1548248) | |
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| (1548248) | |
Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri May 22 11:43:18 2020 I am working on improving the M train article on Wikipedia, and want to fill in some gaps in its history, and get better sources. It has been remarkably hard for me to find sources and information on this. Maybe there is information in old ERA Bulletins that could be of use. SLRT and Elkeeper have made excellent posts about old BRT/BMT history, so perhaps either of you can help me. Also, Eric B wrote his subway route history page, so perhaps you can help me. Any help would be much appreciated. Below is what I have so far. Some of this information is unsourced, and I would appreciate it if any of you could help with that.Thanks. In terms of history, this is what I have:
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Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by SLRT on Fri May 22 11:57:43 2020, in response to Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by Union Tpke on Fri May 22 11:43:18 2020. You've done a hell of a lot of research there. Good for you!I'm at work now so I can't do more than a shallow analysis, but I have my doubts about this: Between Metropolitan Avenue and Chambers Street, running express via Broadway during rush hours (Monday—Saturday). Initially, express service only ran in the evening rush hour. According to Elkeeper, trains skipped Canal Street and Essex. The last part is doubtful. One of the main reasons cited for building the 14th Street Line was to relieve the transfer point at Canal Street for Eastern Division - Midtown Access. Skipping Canal there would have been hell to pay. |
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| (1548253) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri May 22 12:03:35 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by SLRT on Fri May 22 11:57:43 2020. Thanks. That is something that I had marked as unsourced and could not find anything to back it up. I also find it hard to believe that Canal Street would be skipped. I look forward to your response once you get back from work. |
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| (1548254) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by SLRT on Fri May 22 12:11:05 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by Union Tpke on Fri May 22 12:03:35 2020. If you have any particular burning questions, I'd like to hear them. |
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| (1548266) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by SLRT on Fri May 22 13:25:21 2020, in response to Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by Union Tpke on Fri May 22 11:43:18 2020. On the issue of the first stop on the Myrtle-Chambers Express it would have been at Central Avenue, otherwise riders from the Centre Street Loop,wouldn't have access to ,local stations on the Myrtle line. |
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| (1548270) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri May 22 14:06:13 2020, in response to Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by Union Tpke on Fri May 22 11:43:18 2020. I don't know if you want to include 9/11 changes, when the M was on the Sea Beach for about a month.Excellent and insightful research! |
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| (1548283) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri May 22 15:46:38 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri May 22 14:06:13 2020. That is on the Wikipedia page, but did not feel the need to mention it here since it was minor. It shouldn't be too hard to find sources for that. Thanks! |
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| (1548333) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri May 22 21:21:29 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by SLRT on Fri May 22 13:25:21 2020. According to the Jan 15th, 1916 edition of the Brooklyn Eagle (p.12), Myrtle Ave-Chambers express service would begin in 2 days, on Jan 17th, 1916. The article will answer most of your questions. The scary part of this story, not mentioned, was that Broadway Ferry shuttles would continue to turn back at Marcy Ave, until July 3rd, 1916 (official closing date). So, three lines, plus the ferry shuttle ran through Marcy Ave for almost 6 months! |
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| (1548382) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sat May 23 13:22:11 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by SLRT on Fri May 22 11:57:43 2020. The Elkeeper is right. In the AM rush No.10 trains ran express from Central Avenue to Essex Street. In the PM rush they ran express from Bowery to Broadway-Myrtle. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1548387) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat May 23 13:56:00 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by SLRT on Fri May 22 12:11:05 2020. When "regular" Myrtle Ave express service began in 1917 (or 1918), the express trains left Chambers St, skipped Canal, stopped at Bowery, and ran non-stop from Canal to Central Ave. Now, it may be difficult to comprehend, but remember all of the other services that shared the Williamsburg Bridge back then. |
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| (1548389) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sat May 23 14:09:56 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by Elkeeper on Sat May 23 13:56:00 2020. So considering the amount of passenger traffic this was a way to separate riders on various trains? A train that does not have to stop at various local stations can keep time behind other trains?Mike |
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| (1548391) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat May 23 14:21:14 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by Michael549 on Sat May 23 14:09:56 2020. Somehow, they managed to do that. Up to 1967, the BMT ran three rush hour trains over the Manhattan Bridge, as well as three more through the Montague tunnel. Specifically on Nassau-Centre services, you had: Jamaica expresses, Broadway-Brooklyn locals, Myrtle Ave expresses, Banker's Loop Specials, and West End locals. |
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| (1548401) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 16:48:54 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sat May 23 13:22:11 2020. When did Myrtle expresses start stopping at Marcy Av ? |
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| (1548403) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat May 23 16:59:27 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sat May 23 13:22:11 2020. Service on the myrtle Ave Express was adjusted, beginning on Saturday, Dec 13th, 1919. See Brooklyn Eagle for 12/12/19, p.2. |
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| (1548406) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 17:18:24 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by Elkeeper on Sat May 23 13:56:00 2020. Why were Canal and Essex considered not necessary to access the Myrtle Avenue line ? They has to take another train first to get on it, or run upstairs at Myrtle/Broadway ? |
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| (1548409) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sat May 23 17:27:03 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 16:48:54 2020. Randyo mentioned it before.I don't remember. But it's interesting to think it was a local stop not express stop. |
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| (1548411) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 17:56:08 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by LuchAAA on Sat May 23 17:27:03 2020. The "15" and successor QJ when express did not make Marcy. |
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| (1548413) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sat May 23 17:57:41 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 17:56:08 2020. when was the middle track turned into a bumper block? |
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| (1548414) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 18:04:30 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by LuchAAA on Sat May 23 17:57:41 2020. Stephen or Randy would know - remembers back that far. Around 1960, give or take. |
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| (1548421) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by SLRT on Sat May 23 21:59:30 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by Elkeeper on Sat May 23 14:21:14 2020. Broadway-Brooklyn Locals, as we've discussed, didn't enter the Nassau Street complex. Myrtle-Chambers only went to Chambers on the middle track.And the Banker's went south through the Loop, the West Ends north, though not through to '67. |
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| (1548427) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by SLRT on Sat May 23 22:11:19 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sat May 23 13:22:11 2020. The question was skipping Canal Street. That I strongly doubt. |
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| (1548429) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sat May 23 22:14:14 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by SLRT on Sat May 23 21:59:30 2020. Confusing.You are not explaining things thoroughly. |
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| (1548432) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat May 23 22:26:06 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by SLRT on Sat May 23 22:11:19 2020. Read it for yourself- I gave you the Brooklyn Eagle edition dates and the pages! |
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| (1548434) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by SLRT on Sat May 23 22:29:57 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by LuchAAA on Sat May 23 22:14:14 2020. What am I missing? |
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| (1548439) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by randyo on Sun May 24 02:02:14 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by LuchAAA on Sat May 23 17:27:03 2020. Unlike the rest of the stations on the Bway Bkln El, the station at Marcy was the original as was the middle tk in the actual station area. There were plans under the dual contracts to build a 3 tk exp station at Willy B Plaza but there was a difference with the PSC as to whether the BRT or the city would pay for it. The new station was piggy backed with the 3rd tracking of the Fulton St el west of Nostrand and east of Hinsdale St and the Fulton el reconstruction was put on hold till the Willy B Plaza question was resolved which it never was. The only thing my PSC repoer didn’t make clear was whether the new station was supposed to be in addition tomor in place of Marcy. |
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| (1548441) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by randyo on Sun May 24 02:08:53 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by SLRT on Sat May 23 21:59:30 2020. 4 Ave bankers’ Specials went via bridge and south through the loop. Brighton Bankers’ specials went vial the tunnel and north through the loop. |
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| (1548442) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by randyo on Sun May 24 02:10:29 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by Elkeeper on Sat May 23 22:26:06 2020. Were newspaper reporters any more accurate then than they are now? |
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Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sun May 24 02:34:24 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by randyo on Sun May 24 02:08:53 2020. Thanks for explaining that. Now I get it. |
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Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sun May 24 05:37:20 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by randyo on Sun May 24 02:02:14 2020. Just a note -re: Unlike the rest of the stations on the Bway Bkln El, the station at Marcy was the original ... David Rogoff drew a several page long track map of the BMT showing at some points, in addition to existing trackage, original track diagrams prior to any Dual Contracts rebuilding. This included the inner section of the Jamaica el, as two tracked (mostly with island platforms, IIRC?) from the Willy B., through Marcy Ave. and eastwards.* *I don't remember how east. |
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Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sun May 24 05:39:45 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by randyo on Sun May 24 02:02:14 2020. I don't have a scanner, or else I'd scan the document and find out how to download it, so folks here could print out their own copies, for, as the law states, for "fair use."**defined IIRC as being for private use and study. |
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Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun May 24 07:18:01 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by SLRT on Sat May 23 21:59:30 2020. And yet the K and M routes on R27/30 roll signs were "Nassau Street Local" |
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Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun May 24 08:18:42 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by randyo on Sun May 24 02:10:29 2020. Yes. |
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Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sun May 24 09:06:44 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 16:48:54 2020. When did Myrtle expresses start stopping at Marcy Av ? February 23, 1960 Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sun May 24 09:09:07 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by LuchAAA on Sat May 23 17:57:41 2020. when was the middle track turned into a bumper block? February 20-22, 1960. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun May 24 11:05:38 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by randyo on Sun May 24 02:08:53 2020. Brighton Bankers went south, at least when I was able to ride it to work 1965-67. |
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Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun May 24 11:09:40 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by Joe V on Sun May 24 08:18:42 2020. You mean like the New York Times of November 2, 1918 that got many of the important details of the Malbone Street Wreck wrong, including that the first car was wrecked when it sustained only minor damage? |
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Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun May 24 12:25:21 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by SLRT on Sun May 24 11:09:40 2020. Overall. That's one in millions of articles. |
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Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun May 24 14:55:35 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by Joe V on Sun May 24 12:25:21 2020. There are many, and usually careless errors. Try reading any article in a newspaper on a subject you know a lot about, then pick out the errors. |
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Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by randyo on Sun May 24 15:53:45 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by SLRT on Sun May 24 11:05:38 2020. Both 4 Av and Brighton Bankers’ Specials ran in both directions, north in the AM and south in the PM. There 5 of each in the AM but only 3 in the PM. While the Brighton Bankers’ Specials originated at Brighton Bch in the AM, they went through to Stl in the PM Xing over to the lcl tk S/O Kings Hwy and making Lcl stops from there to Stl. The 4 Av Bankers’ Specials ran exp in the AM N/O 59 St and though the bypass but in the PM made all lcl stops to 95 St. |
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Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by randyo on Sun May 24 15:54:38 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by Joe V on Sun May 24 12:25:21 2020. Like the 1948 election of “President” Dewey? |
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Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by randyo on Sun May 24 15:56:52 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by Joe V on Sun May 24 07:18:01 2020. The KK read “Nassau St Lcl” while the M read "Nassau St Exp." |
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Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun May 24 16:19:59 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by randyo on Sun May 24 15:56:52 2020. But nothing that ran on the Southern Division was signed KK. |
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Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun May 24 16:25:10 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by randyo on Sun May 24 15:56:52 2020. Right, but my point was neither Bway-Bklyn nor Myrtle-Chambers train ever got past the Center Street portion |
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Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun May 24 20:26:14 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by LuchAAA on Sat May 23 17:57:41 2020. Thanks for the date, Larry. I wonder if SLRT will believe you! |
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| (1548535) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun May 24 21:10:57 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by randyo on Sun May 24 02:02:14 2020. Randy, the never-built Willy B Plaza express station would have replaced Marcy Ave. |
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Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sun May 24 22:24:04 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sun May 24 09:09:07 2020. Thank you. |
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| (1548546) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by randyo on Mon May 25 01:17:07 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by SLRT on Sun May 24 16:19:59 2020. No and by the time the KK route was established it was a 6 Av route and not Nassau St. |
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| (1548547) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by randyo on Mon May 25 01:22:01 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by Joe V on Sun May 24 16:25:10 2020. True. I assume they used the term “Nassau St” because the entire line eventually became known as the Nassau St Line even the part under Centre St. There are some other lines that carry the name of the main thoroughfare that the route runs on even on portions that don't actually run there. The IND line S/O Bway Jct is still called the Fulton St Line even though it runs under Pitkin And Liberty Aves. |
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| (1548548) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by randyo on Mon May 25 01:28:03 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by Elkeeper on Sun May 24 21:10:57 2020. I kind of figured that but nothing I had explained it. |
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| (1548555) | |
Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B) |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon May 25 08:32:55 2020, in response to Re: Questions about the history of M service (Calling SLRT, Elkeeper, Eric B), posted by randyo on Mon May 25 01:17:07 2020. The rush hour Canal Street flavor of the JJ in Nov '67 should have been called KK. We found that very confusing living there, since JJ also mean the truncation of QJ to Broad Street. |
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