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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 17 16:28:26 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 17 16:10:36 2019.

Then so is a highway.

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 17 16:36:07 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 17 16:28:26 2019.

Absolutely!

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 17 16:37:44 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 17 16:27:41 2019.

Amazonís HQ2 would not function as a retailer.

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by AlM on Sun Feb 17 16:38:44 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Feb 17 15:56:18 2019.

LOL. You just want to call "socialism" the portions of government ownership of the means of production that you don't like, and call it "not socialism" if you do like it.

You can't allow yourself to admit that while many forms of socialism are not useful, some forms of socialism are.




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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by FtgreeneG on Sun Feb 17 17:04:15 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Feb 17 15:56:18 2019.

Thats a matter of opinion. Some feel Universal Health Insurance is public spending. On the other end of the spectrum others feel Railroads are businesses like any other should be able to stand up on its own, what about airlines?, buses? Why one and not the other? etc. Not a simple issue

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 17 17:23:07 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 17 16:37:44 2019.

It's an office building. It has some economic impact, but nothing more.
It will soon be forgotten and we'll move on.

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 17 17:36:43 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 17 17:23:07 2019.

It would have brought in jobs and economic development.

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Feb 17 17:40:38 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by AlM on Sun Feb 17 16:38:44 2019.

"...some forms of socialism are."

Like FDR's 'New Deal' maybe. That was pure bona-fide socialism

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 17 17:51:45 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 17 17:36:43 2019.

As would any office building, and others are sprouting up like weeds all over LIC. I never believed their 25,000 claim of jobs anyway. I think when pushed for commitments outside their secret deal backrooms, they cut and ran.

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 17 17:55:27 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 17 17:51:45 2019.

Weíll see. I hope youíre right.

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Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Feb 17 17:56:46 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 17 16:08:43 2019.

speak for your self. I actually enjoy my work as an electrician.

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Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 17 18:05:57 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Feb 17 17:56:46 2019.

You are one of the few, then.

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Feb 17 18:13:07 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Feb 17 17:40:38 2019.

Which built many miles of subways, hydro-electric plants which dragged two 'third world' segments of the US into the mid 20th century. My very conservative great uncle hated FDR calling him a socialist, and a "traitor to his class", but the New Deal programs saved the economy of this country, and fed my dad in NY during the Depression. And, as Prof Robert Reich likes to point out, the 'lift most boats' post WWII economy erased both the New Deal and war debt, while sending millions of firsts in their lineages to college and underwriting the ugly proliferation of suburbs.

The point ultimately is that only a "soverign" be it a monarch or a constitutional polity can raise the immense amounts of capital (and dragoon the corvee labor) to build major projects. Our beloved RRs, were often built with major state and or federal funding. The B&O, for instance, was absolved of MD state taxes on condition that the name Baltimore remain in their corporate title and the HQ remain there. CSX gave up the tax abatement when they merged B&O into C&O and then CSXT.

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Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Feb 17 18:16:31 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 17 18:05:57 2019.

sad but true. Satisfaction is worth many $$.

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 17 18:24:26 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Feb 17 18:13:07 2019.

Nothing wrong with government investing in economic development.

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Feb 17 18:36:03 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Feb 17 18:13:07 2019.

Iawtp. My arch conservative father also hated Roosevelt. He used to call him "That Moosejaw bastard" whenever we spoke of him and he'd always bring up the fact that in a "power grab" (his words) he tried to pack the bench to add more Supreme Court Judges favorable to his programs when the SC as is would rule some of his proposals unconstitutional. Overall, The New Deal was an example of the good side of socialism. No argument about that. However, Its widely accepted that WWII ended the depression, putting America back to work better than any New Deal program.


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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 17 18:38:19 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Feb 17 18:36:03 2019.

Because World War II was a more massive government spending program than the New Deal, proving that government spending works.

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 17 18:45:48 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Feb 17 15:56:18 2019.

It is appropriate public spending

No it really is not. Most roads in the USA were built by private concerns; the government took them over not to improve them, but for the purposes of control and no other reason.

It was thanks to the collectivist proclivities of some New Jersey farmers that we got the Northeast Corridor, though. They didn't want to use the Middlesex and Essex Turnpike (a remainder of which still exists in Iselin) because of the 3Ę toll, so they actually gave up land to build a free road called the Edgar Shunpike. The New Jersey RR company ended up buying the turnpike in question, and the rest is history. (We know the Edgar Shunpike these days as US 1&9, and it's kinda bumpy through Elizabeth and Linden.)

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 17 18:53:39 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Feb 17 18:36:03 2019.

The New Deal was an example of the good side of socialism

No it was not. It took the country backwards, and the only thing that pulled us out was the war.

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Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Easy on Sun Feb 17 18:58:35 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Feb 16 11:06:13 2019.

They didn't say that. What they said was that they wouldn't reopen the HQ2 search. That means that they can expand in Seattle, Virginia, or Nashville or they can open a normal search quietly and expand somewhere else.

But I suspect that you're correct. They'll likely just hire more people in Virginia.

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Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by AlM on Sun Feb 17 19:04:38 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Easy on Sun Feb 17 18:58:35 2019.

According to this article from 2017, Amazon already had 1,800 employees in NYC then. So they might just add more here and there in NYC.

Link



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Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Easy on Sun Feb 17 19:12:56 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by AlM on Sun Feb 17 19:04:38 2019.

They certainly could but it's been so contentious I doubt they're looking to expand significantly in NYC anymore.

I think amazon has set the bar on how NOT to initiate a large corporate move.

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Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by pragmatist on Sun Feb 17 19:14:43 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Feb 16 19:15:39 2019.

All you have to do is read the statement by the Executive Director of the NYC CLC and you would realize that very large numbers of unions were very much in favor of the project.

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Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by pragmatist on Sun Feb 17 20:00:45 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Feb 17 17:56:46 2019.

As did I for many years. Even though I retired relatively young, I still enjoy teaching some courses for the trade (both journeyman skills enhancement and electrical apprentice)

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 17 20:31:05 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 17 17:55:27 2019.

I've seen this movie before - in Jersey City. What was industrial wasteland around Exchange Place and Newport is a city that now looks more like lower Manhattan than it does. I am sure some corporation over the last 25 years said they would come in, the deal fell through, and someone else comes along.

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Feb 17 20:35:39 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 17 18:24:26 2019.

never said it was improper, merely that government capital investment belies the so called free market.

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Feb 17 20:36:52 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 17 18:53:39 2019.

." It took the country backwards,"

First off, its a given that the War got the country out of the depression. But for the New Deal, enacted long before the war, it got thousands of folks back to work. People who were out of work for years now got a paycheck. Projects like the TVA got many back to work while improving the quality of life for millions by providing electricity where there might not have been before. With social security, folks were able to have a few bucks when they retired where they did not before, just to cite a few examples.
So, bottom line, How does all this & having a renewed, moneymaking working class take a country "backwards"?

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Feb 17 20:38:31 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 17 18:38:19 2019.

and put so many men into the military that women were hired in previously men only--Rosie the Riveter et al.

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by AlM on Sun Feb 17 20:45:21 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 17 20:31:05 2019.

Yes, if the land in LIC is still available for development, which presumably it still is, someone else will develop it. Maybe more slowly, but maybe also with lesser tax incentives from the city.





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Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by randyo on Sun Feb 17 20:49:10 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 16 07:58:32 2019.

Or the US&S ones.

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 17 20:53:23 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Feb 17 20:35:39 2019.

Itís still a free market. Itís just that government is a legitimate participant.

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 17 20:54:21 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Feb 17 20:36:52 2019.

It didnít. Olog-hai is not of sound mind.

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Feb 17 22:22:00 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 17 20:53:23 2019.

so how much gov't influence over the means of production, utilities, transportation services before you admit it is socialist?

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 17 22:39:37 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Feb 17 22:22:00 2019.

All of it is socialist. I just think that socialism needs to be minimal.

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Jsun21 on Sun Feb 17 23:00:11 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Feb 17 18:36:03 2019.

Do keep in mind what a war is, the government taking control of markets, spending large amounts of money and controlling people's lives in the most ultimate way.

We just think that's cool so those behaviors are acceptable in that instance. Same fundamentals under the hood...

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 17 23:22:15 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Jsun21 on Sun Feb 17 23:00:11 2019.

PWN3D!

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 17 23:49:50 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Jsun21 on Sun Feb 17 23:00:11 2019.

That didn't happen during the past few wars. It's happened more during peacetime, of late.

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 18 08:00:48 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Feb 17 20:36:52 2019.

Were it not for the New Deal, there would have been famine, and by the time Pearl Harbor came, would not have had physically fit and nourished 18 - 21 year olds to enter the war.

We are more vulnerable now. All too many federal workers and contractors missing 1 or 2 paychecks sent them to soup kitchens. Typical race-to-the bottom Walmart nation we have become.

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 18 08:00:49 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Feb 17 20:36:52 2019.

Were it not for the New Deal, there would have been famine, and by the time Pearl Harbor came, would not have had physically fit and nourished 18 - 21 year olds to enter the war.

We are more vulnerable now. All too many federal workers and contractors missing 1 or 2 paychecks sent them to soup kitchens. Typical race-to-the bottom Walmart nation we have become.

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Feb 18 08:08:18 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 17 22:39:37 2019.

I just think that socialism needs to be minimal.

The question is for whom it needs to be minimal.

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Feb 18 08:24:54 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 17 18:38:19 2019.

The government, however, had to sell war bonds to pay for the cost of that astonishing expansion of industrial production that turned the US into the first true superpower on Earth. The tax base as it was then, just wasn't enough to build all those ships, tanks, planes, weapons, and trucks, to say nothing of raising the armies and navies needed to prosecute the war. The Manhattan Project alone was stupendously expensive. Albeit with voluntary public investment, the whole gargantuan entrprise was a kind of socialism, if examined closely enough.

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 18 08:36:05 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 17 18:38:19 2019.

From an economic standpoint, WWII was the New Deal on steroids. Factories built war materials as opposed to trains, road vehicles, and toys.

When FDR pulled back on New Deal spending in 1937 due to deficit concerns, there was an economic downturn within the recovery.

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Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by TransitChuckG on Mon Feb 18 09:05:22 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by ntrainride on Sat Feb 16 11:25:21 2019.

This is an easy to use Swingline Stapler. Light action required!!!
Stapler- easy to use

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Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by pragmatist on Mon Feb 18 09:27:36 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by TransitChuckG on Mon Feb 18 09:05:22 2019.

Probably made in China, ACCO didn't think Mexico was cheap enough labor for them....

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Feb 18 09:31:17 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Feb 17 20:36:52 2019.

the New Deal, enacted long before the war, it got thousands of folks back to work

Great, "thousands" and due to government programs and employment. The millions it harmed was an acceptable tradeoff, then? Unemployment rate remained at 17 percent throughout (half a million blacks alone were put out of work by the so-called National Industrial Recovery Act of 1933, for one glaring example). The massive increases in excise, income and corporate taxes depressed commerce, and the controls on agricultural and industrial production depressed it even more.

Of course, you actually think there's a good side to socialism, as you put it. How about looking at the reality?

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Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 18 10:35:42 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by pragmatist on Mon Feb 18 09:27:36 2019.

China probably outsourced it to Vietnam.

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Feb 18 11:09:32 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by AlM on Sun Feb 17 16:38:44 2019.

You cannot put a happy face on socialism by equating public infrastructure with socialism.

Socialism is Nazi Germain, Soviet Russia, Cuba and Venezuela.

It is a way of government, it becomes an autocratic dictatorship.



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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 18 11:30:21 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Feb 18 11:09:32 2019.

Germany and the USSR were on opposite sides of WWII.
Naziism and communism are not to be compared.

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Feb 18 11:46:23 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Feb 18 11:09:32 2019.

Socialism is Nazi Germa(ny), Soviet Russia, Cuba and Venezuela

Why did you leave out Red China?

Also, Mussolini always talked about "social revolution" and "social justice" while in power as a fascist.

There are also the Islamic socialist countries.

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Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by AlM on Mon Feb 18 11:52:02 2019, in response to Re: A reminder about what socialism is, was 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Feb 18 11:09:32 2019.

You are conflating communism, socialism, and national socialism.

Cuba and Soviet Russia did not allow much ownership of private property. That's communism.

In 1950s Britain and Sweden, the government owned much of the means of production, like steel mills. Private property was permitted. That's socialism.

In Nazi Germany, the government owned some of the means of production like Volkswagen, but most were owned by large corporations like Krupp. Private property was permitted.




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