Home ∑ Maps ∑ About

Home > SubChat

[ Post a New Response | Return to the Index ]

[1 2 3 4 5]

 

Page 1 of 5

Next Page >  

(1503531)

view threaded

10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Dave on Fri Feb 15 15:13:02 2019


Amazonís loss could be New York Cityís gain



Post a New Response

(1503534)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 15 15:38:41 2019, in response to 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Dave on Fri Feb 15 15:13:02 2019.

Funny, but that "article" falls into the same trap that the other regressive idiots fall into: That the $3.0*10^9 tax break was money that the state and city have and would have just given to Amazon, which is now available to spend otherwise.

IT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY, PEOPLE!

Post a New Response

(1503542)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by randyo on Fri Feb 15 16:33:53 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 15 15:38:41 2019.

Then MAKE IT WORK THAT WAY!!!!!

Post a New Response

(Sponsored)

iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It

(1503543)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by randyo on Fri Feb 15 16:43:51 2019, in response to 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Dave on Fri Feb 15 15:13:02 2019.

What is needed with regard to trash in the subways is strict enFORCEment of the law assisted by more trash containers on platforms so that nobody will have an excuse not to properly dispose of trash. That being said, many years ago, many transfer stations like 34/6, Times Sq, Grand Central and Union Sq just to name a few and even some platforms had snack bars where passengers could grab light refreshment. Those snack bar also had trash bins for passengers to easily dispose of their garbage. In addition to the snack bars, there were other shops in the subway like record shops, book stores and even clothing stores all of which paid rent to the NYCTA bringing additional revenue over and above what goes into the turnstile. Maybe some if not all facilities of this type could be brought back into the system to alleviate some of the MTAís financial problems. There were also newsstands at many of the stations on the system providing passengers with the convenience of purchasing their newspapers in the subway instead of having top try and find a newsstand on the street. All of these things could bring much needed funds into the transit system.

Post a New Response

(1503544)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by randyo on Fri Feb 15 16:51:27 2019, in response to 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Dave on Fri Feb 15 15:13:02 2019.

Many articles about signal failures are erroneous with regards to the age of the signal facilities through the system. Although I am not completely up to date with the newest signal installations, I believe that the only prewar signals left on the system are the IND signals between Jay St and ENY (Bway Jct) and those only go back to 1936. AFAIK all the current signals on the IRT and BMT were installed well after WWII and the IND has relatively new installations in uptown Manhattan, the Bronx and Queens as well.

Post a New Response

(1503548)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 15 17:07:50 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by randyo on Fri Feb 15 16:33:53 2019.

What are you talking about?

Post a New Response

(1503551)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Feb 15 17:38:17 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by randyo on Fri Feb 15 16:33:53 2019.

Then MAKE IT WORK THAT WAY!!!!!

The $3B was mostly a credit to future taxes paid by Amazon. How do you spend future tax revenue that isn't coming?

Post a New Response

(1503552)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Joe V on Fri Feb 15 17:41:57 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 15 15:38:41 2019.

We should not have to bribe the richest man in the world $1.5B to move an HQ there. 25,000 was merely a goal. Companies don't hire just because they have a building and they have a lot of money. They hire when they have work for people to do.

Companies also move HQ's around wherever they catch a tax break. It is also true that Amazon paid $0 federal income tax in 2017 and 2018 due to carried forward losses form years ago. The NS Railway for one has been moving HQ's and Dispatching centers around quite a lot in the last few years, disrupting a lot of lives.

Buildings are sprouting up like mushrooms all over LIC. They will do fine without them.

Post a New Response

(1503554)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 15 17:55:45 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Feb 15 17:38:17 2019.

Thank you. I donít understand randyoís response.

Post a New Response

(1503555)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 15 17:59:58 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Joe V on Fri Feb 15 17:41:57 2019.

Nothing wrong with carry forward.

Those buildings are all condos. They were hoping for businesses so it would be a 24/7 community so it would be CBD #4.

But LIC is hard enough to get to and park in as it is. Once I parked half in a crosswalk (and didn't get a ticket for hours), another time I got spectacularly lucky and got a non-metered parking space on 44th Drive. The last time I had to appear in LIC I parked in Sunnyside and took the subway. That backfired spectacularly.

Post a New Response

(1503556)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Feb 15 18:00:13 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 15 17:55:45 2019.

Thank you. I donít understand randyoís response.

IIRC, the only portion that was actual spendable money was a $505B capital grant which I would argue should become the genesis of a sovereign wealth fund for New York State. Leave the money invested and locked away for 10 years, and then utilize the half of the annual accrued dividends as a equal payout for all residents of the state.

Post a New Response

(1503557)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Feb 15 18:00:32 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Feb 15 18:00:13 2019.

Sorry, that should be $505M capital grant.

Post a New Response

(1503558)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 15 18:00:45 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 15 17:59:58 2019.

Sorry for using the word "spectacularly" twice. Grossly unwarranted.

Post a New Response

(1503559)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Joe V on Fri Feb 15 18:02:42 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 15 17:59:58 2019.

Well, LIRR must be thrilled that nobody will ask them to run more trains to Hunterspoint Avenue now. Now all the exuberance is around a new Sunnyside station, which still means a short hop on the #7 for most.

Post a New Response

(1503560)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Joe V on Fri Feb 15 18:03:37 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 15 18:00:45 2019.

I am still sending the Department of Redundancy after you.

Post a New Response

(1503561)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 15 18:05:03 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Joe V on Fri Feb 15 18:02:42 2019.

Hunterspoint down, Sunnyside up.

Post a New Response

(1503562)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Chicagomotorman on Fri Feb 15 18:42:14 2019, in response to 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Dave on Fri Feb 15 15:13:02 2019.

I have an idea. Fix the subway.

Post a New Response

(1503565)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Joe V on Fri Feb 15 19:08:02 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Chicagomotorman on Fri Feb 15 18:42:14 2019.

Good idea.

Maybe Bezos got a look at the #7 CBTC delays and lack of additional service, and said "fuck this".

Post a New Response

(1503566)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by 3-9 on Fri Feb 15 19:09:21 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by randyo on Fri Feb 15 16:43:51 2019.

FWIW, there's still a music store in Times Square. As for food other than packaged snacks, how difficult would it be to keep subway vermin away?

Post a New Response

(1503571)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by randyo on Fri Feb 15 19:56:55 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 15 17:55:45 2019.

I wasnít quite sure where the money was supposed to come from thatís why I responded the way I did.

Post a New Response

(1503572)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by randyo on Fri Feb 15 19:59:32 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by 3-9 on Fri Feb 15 19:09:21 2019.

Not difficult if itís done right.

Post a New Response

(1503573)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by randyo on Fri Feb 15 20:01:56 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Joe V on Fri Feb 15 19:08:02 2019.

I think the problem was that Amazon wanted to be non union and some of the politicians were insisting on a union shop which Bezos didnít want rammed down his throat.

Post a New Response

(1503574)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Joe V on Fri Feb 15 20:17:53 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by randyo on Fri Feb 15 20:01:56 2019.

This was no warehouse. $150K jobs are seldom unionized, they're salaried, or contractors.

Post a New Response

(1503577)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 15 21:23:28 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by randyo on Fri Feb 15 19:56:55 2019.

There was no money.

Post a New Response

(1503578)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Feb 15 21:33:46 2019, in response to 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Dave on Fri Feb 15 15:13:02 2019.

Wtf!!? There is NO money. A tax break is Not money given to Amazon or whatever company. Without the company, that money doesn't exist.
This is leftist (Alexandria-like) complete misunderstanding of the real world in true form
What a ridiculous article.

Post a New Response

(1503581)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Steamdriven on Fri Feb 15 23:14:51 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Feb 15 17:38:17 2019.

How do you spend future tax revenue that isn't coming?"

"You just pay spend it."

Post a New Response

(1503582)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by 3-9 on Fri Feb 15 23:16:05 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Joe V on Fri Feb 15 20:17:53 2019.

Maybe the union talk pissed them off enough to strike against NY.

Post a New Response

(1503587)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Feb 16 00:15:19 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by 3-9 on Fri Feb 15 23:16:05 2019.

It would be nice to have more white collar unions out there than just the government...

Post a New Response

(1503588)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Ftgreeneg on Sat Feb 16 00:50:34 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Feb 16 00:15:19 2019.

Iawtp.

Post a New Response

(1503591)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by N6 Limited on Sat Feb 16 01:31:59 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by randyo on Fri Feb 15 16:51:27 2019.

That's interesting, there seems to be less signal troubles on that prewar signaled section of the IND

Post a New Response

(1503592)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by The Silence on Sat Feb 16 01:44:54 2019, in response to 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Dave on Fri Feb 15 15:13:02 2019.

#0 ; beg and plead for Amazon to change its mind.

I swear some of these morons canít see the forest for the trees...

ďLetís kill job growth and infrastructure investment simply because itís a big company...Ē

If these people had a legitimate grievance, that can be discussed and settled. But all I saw were morons conflating Amazon with Walmart and other big box retailers.

The retail world is changing hard and fast. Everything is going online. I havenít bought a physical PC game in about three to five years. Everything has been through Steam or Origin.

Staples, my last job, I give them five years tops before it collapses. It was actually bought out and taken private while I was there and half the stores in the city were closed.


With Toys R Us gone, there is now only a GameStop nearby that is even remotely convenient for me to fulfill my geeky needs.

And donít even get me started on my comic book collection. Thatís a ride on the L to Union square if I want to buy in person (I collect Marvel trade paperbacks instead of individual issues).

Unless there is some sort of massive shift in the other direction, companies like Amazon are going to be the future and to expect them to just lay down and go away is ludicrous.

Post a New Response

(1503593)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Feb 16 02:12:15 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 15 21:23:28 2019.

There was as much money as there ever is when speaking of projected future revenues. Allocating expected future revenues is done every day. Yes, the Amazon giveaway was based on Amazon's HQ2 endeavors increasing the total revenues generated in some future years, but as we all know from experience, projected revenues aren't real until the checks are cashed--especially if dependent on retail sales for instance. One wonders if Amazon (or any other company playing the what will you pay me to locate in your town game) were told the giveway was entirely contingent on a specific growth target whether they would take the deal. We certainly know of cases where as soon as the bribes ran out the companies ran to the next suckers.



Post a New Response

(1503595)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Express Rider on Sat Feb 16 02:21:18 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Feb 16 02:12:15 2019.

Thank you for the first sentence!
That sums the whole thing in a nutshell.

Post a New Response

(1503596)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Feb 16 02:22:01 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Feb 15 21:33:46 2019.

Wrong. This is a giveaway of future revenue without a guarantee that the recipient's business will generate enough to both cover the deficit and rising costs associated with their operation.


Post a New Response

(1503597)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Express Rider on Sat Feb 16 02:24:54 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by 3-9 on Fri Feb 15 19:09:21 2019.

I came across that music store a little over a year ago, and was surprised it was still there.
They had 3 or 4 bins marked import LPs - IIRC mostly a mixture of some UK imports (nothing spectacular) and domestic LPs.
Yes, I know this is not directly transit related... sorry about that.

Post a New Response

(1503599)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by pragmatist on Sat Feb 16 05:34:15 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by 3-9 on Fri Feb 15 23:16:05 2019.

The union talk was a red herring. Certain unions (in particular retail/wholesale workers) have serious issues relating to Amazon, on the other hand, construction and building service worker unions were very much in favor. The NYC Central Labor Council, umbrella organization for most unions in NYC was clearly in favor.

Post a New Response

(1503600)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by AlM on Sat Feb 16 06:27:08 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Joe V on Fri Feb 15 20:17:53 2019.

According to the Times, some politicians were linking the Amazon HQ with unionization of Amazon warehouse facilities in NY.



Post a New Response

(1503601)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by AlM on Sat Feb 16 06:28:50 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by pragmatist on Sat Feb 16 05:34:15 2019.

The union talk was a red herring.

Not so sure. Some politicians wanted NY warehouse facilities unionized in return for Amazon putting up the HQ in LIC. That would be total poison to Amazon.



Post a New Response

(1503602)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Feb 16 06:38:24 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Ftgreeneg on Sat Feb 16 00:50:34 2019.

IAAWTP

Post a New Response

(1503603)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by AlM on Sat Feb 16 06:44:00 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Feb 16 00:15:19 2019.

White collar unions tend to be very weak because they aren't willing to strike. When I worked for Boeing 40 years ago I was in a white collar union. They negotiated a package that was so weak that the company gave out better raises than the package required.



Post a New Response

(1503604)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 16 06:44:16 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by AlM on Sat Feb 16 06:28:50 2019.

Amazon is much like Walmart in that regard. All the money at the top, workers are paid shit and often treated like shit.

When they closed a bunch of Sam's Club last year, no notice, workers showed up for work at 9am and found doors locked with signs posted.

Post a New Response

(1503605)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 16 06:45:48 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Feb 15 21:33:46 2019.

You have little understanding of how the world works and believe whatever nonsense comes out of a corporate theocrats mouth.

Post a New Response

(1503606)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by pragmatist on Sat Feb 16 06:48:53 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by AlM on Sat Feb 16 06:28:50 2019.

The politicians used that as an excuse to advance their positions...

The Amazon WH on Staten Island is up and running, pledging neutrality or accepting card check for those workers was brought up, and that's not unreasonable, but pressing on whether or not the HQ staff would be unionized was what was phony, since private sector white collar workers are rarely successfully organized.

Post a New Response

(1503608)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Dave on Sat Feb 16 07:37:26 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 15 18:05:03 2019.

LOL!!

Post a New Response

(1503609)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Ftgreeneg on Sat Feb 16 07:50:32 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 16 06:44:16 2019.

Ouch.

Post a New Response

(1503610)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 16 07:53:18 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Feb 16 00:15:19 2019.

LION has been in onions, and lion has had jobs without onions.

The custodian job for the school district was a union job and was good.
Good Humor was a union job, was less good.
Residential maintenance job in queens, not good.

Working for the ZOA and then for the Franciscans was non-union and those jobs were really good.

Being a monk is a non-union job, but the benefits are out of this world.

ROAR

Post a New Response

(1503611)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 16 07:57:03 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Feb 16 02:22:01 2019.

misunderstood.

Post a New Response

(1503612)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 16 07:58:32 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by N6 Limited on Sat Feb 16 01:31:59 2019.

Well what can you expect when you pull out the GRS machines.

Post a New Response

(1503613)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 16 08:02:16 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by The Silence on Sat Feb 16 01:44:54 2019.

And they will set up shop in states where the taxes are lower and have right-to-work rules. Giving them a tax break was an attempt to level the playing field. New York is a place with an excellent pool of labor which is something you might not get in other places.


Post a New Response

(1503614)

view threaded

Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over

Posted by BILLBKLYN on Sat Feb 16 08:13:48 2019, in response to Re: 10 things NYC should do now that Amazon HQ2 deal is over, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 15 15:38:41 2019.

Yep! New York City just got served a huge missed opportunity but the socialists will never see it.

Post a New Response

[1 2 3 4 5]

 

Page 1 of 5

Next Page >  


[ Return to the Message Index ]