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| (1333309) | |
Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Tue Jan 13 11:49:30 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 13 11:39:43 2015. but nothing will happen there unless a viable replacement location for MSG is found,Surely there must be a couple of abandoned barges in the East River that we could use. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1333310) | |
Re: Madison Square Garden |
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Posted by pragmatist on Tue Jan 13 11:54:47 2015, in response to Re: Madison Square Garden, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 13 11:37:49 2015. That is very true, very long routes will never be near what they once were but we also can not ignore rail's potential value in corridor travel. Not long distance, but somewhat longer than commuter. NYP-ALB, NYP-BOS, NYP-WAS, and intermediate points carry very high percentages of the passenger volume. There are other similar locations around the nation along with some high potential future opportunities. I love the overnights, and do travel on them, but I can run a column of numbers. |
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| (1333311) | |
Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 13 12:07:13 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Tue Jan 13 11:46:21 2015. " I never heard of anyone complaining about NYP outside of railfans TBH."Oh come on. Every single NJT, Amtrak, and LIRR passenger can't stand the place. |
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| (1333312) | |
Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 13 12:10:29 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 13 11:18:43 2015. And all those structures above the mid-block ex-taxiway need to go away too. That is a just west of the pinchpoint of the LIRR & NJT concourses, and the 7th Avenue entrance. Need to open the ceiling up. Nobody likes a huge railroad station being a glorified subway station. |
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| (1333314) | |
Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Jan 13 12:19:23 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Tue Jan 13 11:46:21 2015. I never heard of anyone complaining about NYP outside of railfans TBH.This wasn't just rail fans: The [Landmarks Preservation] Commission was created in 1965 through groundbreaking legislation signed by the late Mayor Robert F. Wagner in response to the mounting losses of historically significant buildings in New York City, most infamously Pennsylvania Station. Link |
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| (1333317) | |
Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by pragmatist on Tue Jan 13 12:26:44 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 13 12:07:13 2015. Complaining about the demolition of old Penn, and hating the replacement are 2 separate things. I was 7 years old when it went down. If more people realized just what the city would be stuck with, and how much volume the station would be asked to handle, they may have felt differently about the plans. I can't say for sure. As a regular Amtrak rider, a 30 + year Ranger ticket holder, and as someone who worked on 35th street for a number of years, I've been through Penn (except for the NJT area) tons of times. Yes, I can't stand it..... |
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| (1333319) | |
Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 13 12:32:32 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by AlM on Tue Jan 13 12:19:23 2015. Ripping down Penn Station may have been a blessing in disguise, because there would have been no Landmarks Commission, then GCT would have gone down 10 - 20 years later. MTA would have put up a cinder block cigar box underneath an office building. |
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| (1333321) | |
Re: Madison Cylindrical Garden |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jan 13 12:35:36 2015, in response to Re: Madison Square Garden, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Jan 13 04:45:41 2015. Madison Square Garden is as beloved as Penn Station was, if not moreNo it sure ain't. |
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| (1333322) | |
Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 13 12:36:23 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 13 11:41:07 2015. The seats got sold on Ebay. The Fans got over it.Nobody misses the old bathrooms. |
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| (1333326) | |
Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 13 12:58:50 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by AlM on Tue Jan 13 09:30:05 2015. That's just part of it.No one needed to say it. We're talking about the general movement afoot to reimagine Penn Station. It has been in the news for years and there have even been design exhibitions. |
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| (1333328) | |
Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jan 13 13:01:39 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Tue Jan 13 11:33:09 2015. "Transbay transit center" more honestly called Port Authority Bus Terminsl West" will likely be a disaster. The developers who got the land have been trying to weasel out of the contributions to the terminal fundiing which they had signed up fot. We still don't have fully allocated money for the rail tunnels; meanwhile the "costs" have risen such that some of the "beauty treatments" have already been canceled. And, of course, the completion date... |
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| (1333330) | |
Re: Madison Cylindrical Garden |
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Posted by pragmatist on Tue Jan 13 13:03:14 2015, in response to Re: Madison Cylindrical Garden, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jan 13 12:35:36 2015. As a "concept" maybe, as a building I really don't think so. It was a pretty crummy building with very inadequate facilities, and unfriendly management for many years. Countless millions of dollars of work, and a major attitude change by management made it a much better place, and the last big rebuild is a huge upgrade. In see a much bigger connections with the teams and events, rather than the building. |
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| (1333331) | |
Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 13 13:04:58 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Tue Jan 13 11:46:21 2015. The area Yankee Stadium was in needed the park space, that's why the original was torn down. The new Yankee Stadium location was originally a park. Tearing it down was justified in that case.Oh, LOL, you're assuming the new Yankees Stadium was built and talking about why the old stadium then needed to be torn down? LOL! That's not what Spider-Pig is talking about! He's talking about the fact that it was replaced completely! |
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| (1333332) | |
Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 13 13:06:05 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Tue Jan 13 11:46:21 2015. I never heard of anyone complaining about NYP outside of railfans TBH.Then you need to get out more. And become more well read. And try using Google. |
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| (1333333) | |
Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 13 13:06:48 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Tue Jan 13 11:33:09 2015. The current setup is perfect, station in the basement of some other kind of developmentNo it's not. It's not perfect at all. Have you ever walked through all areas of Penn Station during the PM rush hour? |
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| (1333335) | |
Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Jan 13 13:07:57 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 13 11:19:17 2015. Only load bearing structures are contingent on MSG being removed. You can replace shops with concourse space right now. |
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Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 13 13:08:45 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by AlM on Tue Jan 13 13:07:57 2015. But you need shops too. |
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| (1333337) | |
Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 13 13:13:25 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Tue Jan 13 11:46:21 2015. The area Yankee Stadium was in needed the park space, that's why the original was torn down. The new Yankee Stadium location was originally a park.They wouldn't have needed the parkland if the new stadium were never built. Yet despite the history at Yankee Stadium, few batted an eyelash at its wholesale replacement. And it was only replaced for its own sake and not due to any desire to vacate its current premises in order to right an important civic wrong. |
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| (1333338) | |
Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 13 13:14:47 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 13 11:41:07 2015. Sunk cost fallacy. |
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| (1333339) | |
Re: Madison Square Garden |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 13 13:15:29 2015, in response to Re: Madison Square Garden, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 13 11:41:49 2015. The Cathedral of Christ the Savior WAS one of a kind. And it's a travesty. But it is GONE. Wrongfully so, but it is gone. Nothing can bring it back.Oh wait, they brought it back. |
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| (1333340) | |
Re: Madison Square Garden |
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Posted by pragmatist on Tue Jan 13 13:23:41 2015, in response to Re: Madison Square Garden, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 13 13:15:29 2015. And millions of Russians, in particular Muscovites donated money to help make it happen. While it might be a noble notion, don't bet on it happening here. |
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| (1333342) | |
Re: Madison Square Garden |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 13 13:26:00 2015, in response to Re: Madison Square Garden, posted by pragmatist on Tue Jan 13 13:23:41 2015. People donate to museums and similar cultural institutions all the time. Plus, the government pitched in there and can pitch in here. |
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| (1333343) | |
Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Jan 13 13:30:50 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 13 13:08:45 2015. Not arguing. But how else do you increase space on the Amtrak level?1. Remove load bearing structures. 2. Remove shops. 3. Remove Amtrak. Chris said not #1, so I moved on to #2. What am I missing here? |
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| (1333346) | |
Re: Madison Square Garden |
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Posted by pragmatist on Tue Jan 13 13:37:08 2015, in response to Re: Madison Square Garden, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 13 13:26:00 2015. Please do not confuse my not thinking it will happen with my not hoping it will happen. |
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| (1333347) | |
Re: Madison Cylindrical Garden |
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Posted by FtGreeneG on Tue Jan 13 13:37:28 2015, in response to Re: Madison Cylindrical Garden, posted by pragmatist on Tue Jan 13 13:03:14 2015. Can't deny it the MSG building itself is bland, ugly and outdated. Must admit haven't been to MSG since the renovations Barclays is much more convenient for me. MSG is more a symbol and rich history more than anything. For athletes and artist nothing says you made it to the big leagues as playing at MSG. |
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| (1333348) | |
Re: Madison Square Garden |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 13 13:41:43 2015, in response to Re: Madison Square Garden, posted by pragmatist on Tue Jan 13 13:37:08 2015. Understood. IAWTP. |
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| (1333349) | |
Re: Madison Cylindrical Garden |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 13 13:42:40 2015, in response to Re: Madison Cylindrical Garden, posted by FtGreeneG on Tue Jan 13 13:37:28 2015. Which means that a new building can be anywhere in Manhattan in or near Midtown and would still be "MSG." |
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| (1333350) | |
Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 13 13:43:08 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 13 13:06:48 2015. Try walking across the main concourse that AMtrak clogs up when they try to load an 8 car Regional with all of 600 seats through one staircase.LIRR can load a 12 car MU of 1,200 people far better, and does so every 3 minutes. Some of it is a function of the station, but some of it the intelligence, or lack thereof, of the railroad. |
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Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by FtGreeneG on Tue Jan 13 13:45:17 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue Jan 13 06:39:23 2015. Well I would say railfans and maybe the older generation who remember the place love the old Penn. But honestly overall I don't think most ppl even know there was ever a Penn Station building to even miss it. It was tore down so long ago. But I do.agree aomwthing needs to be done to better accomodate its huge crowds. |
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| (1333356) | |
Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by r33/r36 mainline on Tue Jan 13 13:51:28 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 13 12:07:13 2015. I ridden all three railroads out of NYP and I love it, I prefer it to GCT.Amtrak riders can't stand the place yet it has the highest ridership in the entire Amtrak system... mind you in the Northeast Amtrak faces stiff competition from Airlines and Buses, easy to use alternate means if NYP is THAT bad... |
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Re: Madison Cylindrical Garden |
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Posted by FtGreeneG on Tue Jan 13 13:51:39 2015, in response to Re: Madison Cylindrical Garden, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 13 13:42:40 2015. I think the answer of where MSG should go is across the street to the Post Office. They should drop move the Moynihan Station proposal to the current MSG location. If MSG has to move win win for everybody |
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Re: Madison Cylindrical Garden |
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Posted by pragmatist on Tue Jan 13 13:54:53 2015, in response to Re: Madison Cylindrical Garden, posted by FtGreeneG on Tue Jan 13 13:37:28 2015. What makes the latest renovation stand out more than past upgrades is the degree to which major elements of the building were changed. Things you don't always see, but are a huge part of the operation. New chillers and piping in a new floor. New escalators, electrical, plumbing, and mechanical. Restrooms and concessions we see. The concrete and steel for the whole upper half was ripped out and replaced at a slightly steeper angle which improves sightlines. So its not just new seats, its the very concrete they bolt to that is improved. It is a nice place, but think of what Barclays would have been if they kept the Frank Gehry design instead of shaving millions off the cost. You never get to put the sizzle back onto the steak once it is served. |
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| (1333359) | |
Re: Madison Square Garden |
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Posted by FtGreeneG on Tue Jan 13 13:56:10 2015, in response to Re: Madison Square Garden, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Jan 13 04:45:41 2015. It will need to be replaced eventually. Just was responding to the post no one in NY would care if MSG ceased to exist. |
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| (1333360) | |
Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 13 13:58:39 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Tue Jan 13 13:51:28 2015. Yes PABT is a homeless paradise.Any Millenials love Megabus because of Wifi. That leaves the rest of us. |
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| (1333361) | |
Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 13 13:58:55 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Tue Jan 13 13:51:28 2015. It has high ridership despite itself. It is the Amtrak station in New York. Buses and airlines are not the alternatives you think they are. |
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Re: Madison Cylindrical Garden |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 13 14:00:17 2015, in response to Re: Madison Cylindrical Garden, posted by FtGreeneG on Tue Jan 13 13:51:39 2015. The Post office building is itself a landmark. If the garden can fit in there without destroying it, then fine. Otherwise no. |
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Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by r33/r36 mainline on Tue Jan 13 14:01:44 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by pragmatist on Tue Jan 13 12:26:44 2015. I was talking about people hating the replacement, just seems like a railfan thing, the current NYP looks reasonably modern, its clean and safe, don't see why commuters would hate it, is having a big open space above the concourse like at 30th Street in Philly and GCT that big of a deal?People born after the original station was torn down do not care about it unless there an history buff or a railfan, which makes up a small amount of the people who use the station. |
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Re: Madison Cylindrical Garden |
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Posted by FtGreeneG on Tue Jan 13 14:02:43 2015, in response to Re: Madison Cylindrical Garden, posted by pragmatist on Tue Jan 13 13:54:53 2015. Not the smartest move on Dolan's part. Of course the upgrades dealing with safety and structural integrity of the arena needed to be done but all the other fancy features totaling over a billion $ should have waited until he got that unlimited lease he was hoping for. |
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Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by FtGreeneG on Tue Jan 13 14:13:45 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Tue Jan 13 14:01:44 2015. I agree with you on the fact that I personally I like Penn Statoon and don't think NY Penn is as bad as some ppl make it out to be. Some improvements do need to be made to deal with it's huge and growing ridership however. |
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Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Tue Jan 13 14:14:04 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Tue Jan 13 11:49:30 2015. The way the Knicks have been playing of late, there won't be much of a reason to go TO Madison Round Garden! :)--Mark |
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Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Jan 13 14:15:49 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Dave on Tue Jan 6 14:27:15 2015. Wow...with BMCC right there, this must've been taken just before they demolished the highway... |
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Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Tue Jan 13 14:20:15 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Tue Jan 13 14:14:04 2015. But on the other hand, the Rangers are kicking butt this year, so.....And the Knicks are still drawing alright...its an event people still go to... |
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| (1333375) | |
Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 13 14:51:47 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by AlM on Tue Jan 13 13:30:50 2015. You do #1, you reposition #2, you redesign #3, and you properly design the floor for all pedestrian movements and uses. |
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Re: Madison Cylindrical Garden |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 13 14:52:42 2015, in response to Re: Madison Cylindrical Garden, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 13 14:00:17 2015. Not the annex part of it, AFAIK. That's where it could go. |
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Re: Madison Cylindrical Garden |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 13 14:59:35 2015, in response to Re: Madison Cylindrical Garden, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 13 14:00:17 2015. There was a plan and the wheels were turning but then it all fell apart.1. Plan to Move Garden Augurs Change for Midtown 2. New plan for Penn Station and Madison Square Garden |
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Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 13 15:01:00 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 13 13:43:08 2015. Yes. But it's not the Regional trains that are the worst problem. It's the Long Distance trains. Those people are irregular travelers and need all the hand holding. |
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| (1333380) | |
Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 13 15:02:13 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Tue Jan 13 14:01:44 2015. Why don't you ask some of the 400,000 passengers who use it every day if it is a railfan thing or do they genuinely can't stand the place.Jackie Kennedy did not help save GCT because she was a railfan. Neither is Senator Moynihan's daughter for wanting to turn Farley PO into an Amtrak station. What she got wrong is location-location-location. Turning Washington Union Station back from a 1976 Visitor's Center was not a railfan thing either, though they went way overboard with the shopping mall aspect. |
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| (1333382) | |
Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 13 15:07:11 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 13 15:01:00 2015. The LD trains have at best 4 60-seat coaches and 2 or 3 sleepers. Despite hand-holding and red-caps, there aren't that many of them 4 to 5 times a day. The amount of people en toto is miniscule.I'll admit Amtrak makes a mess with Passport check and line-up crap in the AM rush with the Maple Leaf and Adirondack. But they are still 4 car trains. But watch the concourse when a Regional train is 20 minutes late, and Amtrak carries on with Kindergarten lines. |
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| (1333385) | |
Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 13 15:10:35 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 13 13:58:55 2015. +65 |
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Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 13 15:11:25 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Tue Jan 13 13:51:28 2015. Amtrak riders can't stand the place yet it has the highest ridership in the entire Amtrak system...The design of the station plays little to no part in the ridership numbers in this case. |
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