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What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 9 12:40:18 2013

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jul 9 15:09:12 2013, in response to What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 9 12:40:18 2013.

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Too many cars. NYC should institute both congestion fees and auto registration surcharges--both explicitly dedicated to transit operations.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 9 21:26:23 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jul 9 15:09:12 2013.

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It's not fair to punish drivers before you give them mass transit alternatives. Most of those who drive have to. Why should they have to use slower buses and subways if they don't want to? That's not fair.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by WillD on Tue Jul 9 22:59:41 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 9 21:26:23 2013.

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Fairness does not enter into the equation at all. You're never going to get a political push for real improvements to mass transit if you're foolish enough to try to appease the automobile lobby.

But then your casual dismissal of bicycling as a means of transportation indicates just how big a fool you really are.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jul 10 00:53:20 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 9 21:26:23 2013.

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I am all in favor of improving transit immediately, but there is zero excuse for single occupancy auto commuting into Manhattan's CBD today. That said, no reason to wait. As soon as the funds start coming in, transit headways should be cut.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by Dan on Wed Jul 10 09:04:54 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jul 9 15:09:12 2013.

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The outer borough middle class voter will fight that. That's all of S.I., and big chunks of Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx. Neighborhoods like Bay Ridge, Whitestone, Morris Park, etc.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 10 10:31:20 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by WillD on Tue Jul 9 22:59:41 2013.

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First of all,fairness should enter into the equation.

Second, what automobile lobby? The AAA is not as early powerful as they used to be. Name one mass transit improvement they have opposed recently or were successful in stopping or delaying?

Third, you are the fool because you are so set in your beliefs that you can't even read what I wrote. I never dismissed bicycling. I said they are great for short commutes. However, because most commutes are long in NYC and therefore are not suited to bicycles. That's the problem with cycle advocates like yourself. You refuse to even consider any opinion that doesn't agree 100% with your own. You dismiss any facts you don't like and then harp on others that are irrelevant to a discussion just to promote your own point of view. Then of course you have to insult because you don't want to be bothered with the truth.



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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 10 10:36:16 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jul 10 00:53:20 2013.

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As I stated, it all comes down to what alternatives someone has. Yes, some commute to Mahattan by car when they shouldn't but others have little choice or don't want to be stuffed into crowded trains. You have no right to force them to do do.

And what makes you do sure that if transit funds start coming in headways will be cut? The MTA proposed a series of new bus routes at 30 minute headways. Then they found $40 million but still did not decrease the headways on the proposed routes to every 20 minutes. Thirty minute headways are a huge deterrent and not a way to build ridership or test demand.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jul 10 11:18:26 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 10 10:31:20 2013.

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I never dismissed bicycling. I said they are great for short commutes. However, because most commutes are long in NYC and therefore are not suited to bicycles.

Most journeys to work involve journeys to jobs in the same borough where one lives, according to the US Census. Public transit fails this segment for the most part. These trips are relatively short - less than 5 miles. They are ideal for a bike, if there were infrastructure to convince most people that such trips were safe and feasible.

Even trips to the CBD from the outer boroughs are not as laborious as you imagine. The distance from Rego Park to Rockefeller Center is the same as from E 92nd St to Wall St. Manhattan bike lanes make people consider this commute by bicycle. Queens Blvd is managed to maximize automobile speed. Its lack of bicycle lanes acts as a barrier to people.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by AlM on Wed Jul 10 11:26:03 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jul 10 11:18:26 2013.

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Most journeys to work involve journeys to jobs in the same borough where one lives, according to the US Census.

Do you mean county, as a nationwide phenomenon, or are you specifically referring to NYC boroughs?

I find it hard to believe that a majority of employed residents of Staten Island or Queens work in their own borough. Brooklyn and Bronx are a bit hard to believe too. Manhattan, sure.



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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jul 10 11:32:56 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by AlM on Wed Jul 10 11:26:03 2013.

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Do you mean county, as a nationwide phenomenon, or are you specifically referring to NYC boroughs?

I specifically stated "borough" not "county" to avoid the confusion. I'm referring to NYC.

I find it hard to believe that a majority of employed residents of Staten Island or Queens work in their own borough. Brooklyn and Bronx are a bit hard to believe too. Manhattan, sure.

Where's Ripley, when you needed him? :=)

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Jul 10 11:43:08 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 10 10:36:16 2013.

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As I stated, it all comes down to what alternatives someone has. Yes, some commute to Mahattan by car when they shouldn't but others have little choice or don't want to be stuffed into crowded trains. You have no right to force them to do do.

Charging for a privilege isn't the same as taking that privilege away. It's not like the subway fare forces everyone to walk (or bike).

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Jul 10 11:45:09 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 10 10:31:20 2013.

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I never dismissed bicycling. I said they are great for short commutes. However, because most commutes are long in NYC and therefore are not suited to bicycles.

Transportation isn't only for commuting, and regardless of the length of the trip, the infrastructure still needs to be there.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by Nostalgia on Wed Jul 10 12:15:11 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 10 10:31:20 2013.

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"most commutes are long in NYC"

Why have you repeated this assertion several times without once providing the source?

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jul 10 14:36:17 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by Dan on Wed Jul 10 09:04:54 2013.

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S.I. I have some sympathy for, the others, not. Really economically not very smart to own, insure, maintain a car which you don't use except on weekends and the occasional evening. That's what cabs and ZipCar are for. Let us be clear, if you are driving the tradesperson truck w/tools/materials that is different, and the congestion charge is just another business cost. However, if one is working on a longer term project, the tools stay on site and in many cases the materials can be delivered by the supplier. Absent such freight transport, single driving into Midtown is simply unnecessary, why should we encourage it? If some overly rich person insists on driving, fine, make them pay. As to spending these revenues, yes, we need to watch like hawks because the pols/bureaucrats will try very hard to waste them on something else--eternal vigilence is...

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by WillD on Wed Jul 10 15:28:09 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 10 10:31:20 2013.

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First of all,fairness should enter into the equation.

If fairness entered into transportation in any way then the cost for using the subway would be the same as the cost to use the East River bridges.

Second, what automobile lobby?

These guys still exist. And AAA is still very active in pro-automobile lobbying despite your delusions otherwise.

Name one mass transit improvement they have opposed recently or were successful in stopping or delaying?

It's not a matter of their using their lobbying prowess to cancel project, but rather arguing for a maximal amount of money being allocated to automobile based infrastructure. With transportation funding being rather scarce any dollar spent on the outmoded idea that the city should exist for the sake of the automobile, or that we can pave our way out of congestion is the same thing as cancelling a mass transit project.

Third, you are the fool because you are so set in your beliefs that you can't even read what I wrote.

That's the problem, I've read every word you've scrawled on these op eds. Every mention you make of bike or bus lanes is predicated on the proposition that every square foot of street space needs to be dedicated to the automobile. That is laughably outmoded thinking and the exact sort of thing that is slowly strangling the city's outer suburbs.

You dismiss any facts you don't like and then harp on others that are irrelevant to a discussion just to promote your own point of view.

What facts? Where is there a verifiable fact in either your "article" or anything else you've posted on here? You assert a number of points regarding causes and potential solutions to congestion as you see them, but completely fail to provide any sources for those points.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jul 10 18:08:17 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jul 10 14:36:17 2013.

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S.I. I have some sympathy for, the others, not. Really economically not very smart to own, insure, maintain a car which you don't use except on weekends and the occasional evening

LOL! You obviously have no idea what much of NYC looks like.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jul 10 18:16:47 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jul 10 11:18:26 2013.

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Even trips to the CBD from the outer boroughs are not as laborious as you imagine. The distance from Rego Park to Rockefeller Center is the same as from E 92nd St to Wall St.

I would consider a daily bike trip from 92nd St to Wall St to be laborious.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 10 20:25:24 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jul 10 11:32:56 2013.

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During my entire work history of 33 years, very few people I knew traveled less than five miles to work.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 10 20:26:28 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jul 10 18:16:47 2013.

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So would I. Also, how many would be willing to make such a trip in other than perfect weather?

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 10 20:27:20 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Jul 10 11:45:09 2013.

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Not when you are inconveniencing many to benefit a small minority of the population.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 10 20:37:14 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by WillD on Wed Jul 10 15:28:09 2013.

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We are not spending massive amounts on highways, so don't make up facts. We are only spending money to replace outdated bridges tat have reached the end of their useful life. You would rather these bridges collapse from disrepair so those horrible villainous automobile drivers who dare to drive a car should fall to their deaths when those bridges collapse because that's what they deserve since they are not willing to spend 90 minutes on the train that takes them only 30 minutes by car. How terribly selfish of them.

The AAA isn't taking any money away from mass transit. You ask me to provide sources so where are yours?

You have read what I wrote but you also misinterpreted it. No one said anything about paving every square foot of street space to accommodate the automobile. How do you get that from a "balanced transportation system" which is what I advocated.

The causes and potential solutions to congestion as I see it is common sense. That's my source.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 10 20:39:37 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Jul 10 11:43:08 2013.

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How is paying a second fare to ride a third bus to complete your trip a privilege? It certainly does encourage you to make your trip another way or not make it at all.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 10 20:43:39 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jul 10 14:36:17 2013.

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Cabs in NYC are grossly unaffordable for long trips between boroughs if you could even bet one. It could easily cost you $50 for a one-way trip. If they were more affordable or if we had some type of shared ride system, perhaps more people could get away without owning a car. But for many living outside of Manhattan, it is a necessity unless you don't mind frequent 2 hour mass transit trips to any places you need to go. People value their time.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Jul 10 21:30:48 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jul 10 18:16:47 2013.

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Not just laborious, sweaty. I've considered biking to work but unless I can start taking my morning shower at the office (meaning shower, clothes storage and laundry services available) it's either bus or drive...

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by WillD on Wed Jul 10 21:48:36 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 10 20:37:14 2013.

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We are not spending massive amounts on highways,

Since when is an annual expenditure of $27 billion anything other than massive? How can the FTA's paltry $7 billion be anything other than pathetic by comparison?

You would rather these bridges collapse from disrepair so those horrible villainous automobile drivers who dare to drive a car should fall to their deaths when those bridges collapse...

To apply the strawman you invented for me to yourself, I guess it'd be clear you'd prefer the mass transit passengers die when an East River tube floods. But why don't we try to stick to what was actually said rather than what you dream up?

The AAA isn't taking any money away from mass transit. You ask me to provide sources so where are yours?

It's that blue thing in my post. It's a called a hyperlink and provides a reference to refute your assertion that the AAA no longer has any political interests.

No one said anything about paving every square foot of street space to accommodate the automobile. How do you get that from a "balanced transportation system" which is what I advocated.

How can you claim the status quo is balanced? The entire premise of your attack on SBS and bike lanes is predicated on the preservation of the road surface for automobiles. You've completely shut out the possibility of viable alternatives to automobile traffic and instead focused on the least effective means of reducing congestion. You may not support it, but if you pursue those ridiculous strategies the end result will be the expansion of highways as you make mass transit less appealing and increase automobile dependence amongst NYC residents.

The causes and potential solutions to congestion as I see it is common sense. That's my source.

IOW, it's all bullshit. Thanks, you could have saved us all a lot of time if you'd just come out and said that at the beginning.

Oh, and in your "solutions" #1 and #6 are the same thing stated in two different ways.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Jul 10 22:38:20 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 10 20:37:14 2013.

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We are not spending massive amounts on highways, so don't make up facts. We are only spending money to replace outdated bridges tat have reached the end of their useful life.

I had to laugh, considering in the past two days I've driven on two limited access highways that opened in the last seven years and along seven miles of highway that was just widened from six lanes to eight in the past few months.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Jul 10 22:39:39 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 10 20:43:39 2013.

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Cabs in NYC are grossly unaffordable for long trips between boroughs if you could even bet one.

Then he should have said "that's what black cars and ZipCar are for" instead of "that's what cabs and ZipCar are for." Oh, and there's ZipCar.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Jul 10 22:41:18 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 10 20:39:37 2013.

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How is paying a second fare to ride a third bus to complete your trip a privilege? It certainly does encourage you to make your trip another way or not make it at all.

What does that have to do with driving in Manhattan? FWIW, I think transfers should be done away with and fares should be time based, but someone who is commuting every day would most likely have an unlimited pass anyway.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 10 23:05:09 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by WillD on Wed Jul 10 21:48:36 2013.

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You can't compare the $27 billion to the $7 billion. Most of the country is not urban where subways are appropriate. Money has to be spent on highways there. If you are going to compare money spent on highways vs. ass transit, it only makes sense if you do it for an area where you have a choice of spending it on mass transit or highways. I really doubt we spend more money in NYC on highways than we do on mass transit. Do you have those numbers?

I never said the AAA doesn't have political interests, only that they no longer carry the same amount of power they once did.

I never shut out viable alternatives to automobile traffic. You are reading what you want to read, not what I wrote. I said tat SBS is not a panacea. I believe it's usefulness is exaggerated. It saves money for the MTA, but little time for users. For example, we read that the new Webster Avenue SBS will save riders up to 10 minutes. That's not huge because most riders do not ride the entire SBS route. The average savings may be closer to 5 minutes, and it isn't clear if those savings even include the extra walk to te SBS stop so the average savings may even be less. I stated fixing route inefficiencies in many cases would save more time than an SBS route.

Riding a bicycle is not a viable alternative to driving a car, but you just believe that it is and refuse to accept tat it isn't. Solutions 1 and 6 are totally different, not the same. Reducing car traffic is different from reducing automobile traffic. You just want to lump all vehicles into a single category. Why don't you propose delivering all our goods using bicycle messengers?

Strategies to reduce congestion are not ridiculous. People like you believe congestion is a good thing because it discourages driving, except instead of calling it what is it "traffic congestion", you renamed it as "traffic calming." You don't care who you inconvenience.
And reducing congestion does not result in the building of new highways. Where is your source that it does? Oh, you don't need sources, only I do.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 10 23:07:09 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Jul 10 22:38:20 2013.

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Of course, you are not talking about New York City which is what this discussion is about. Of course they are continuing to build highways where there is no mass transit because the densities can't support it.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 10 23:11:25 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Jul 10 22:41:18 2013.

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I wasn't addressing driving in Manhattan with that comment, but your comment about taking away a privilege. And only about half the passengers have an unlimited. Many who commute everyday don't have one because they still don't use the system enough for it to be worthwhile for them.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 10 23:13:05 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Jul 10 22:39:39 2013.

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How affordable are zip cars and are they available all over? Black cars are also expensive for ten or 20 mile trips.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jul 10 23:42:07 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 10 20:43:39 2013.

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Let me assure you that I value my time. That said, I just favor improving mass transit and generally curtailing auto usage--not by fiat but by fees and by refusing to expand highways. In other threads on this site, I have repeated stated support both for Triboro RX and New Haven Line connections to Queens/LI as well as rail to S.I. I want the transit convenience factor to be much greater all over. BTW in another of your posts you refer to people living outside of metro areas. The are a minority--most Americans are within the metro's as counted by the US Census. Therefore, on a per capita equity basis very little funding should go to support anything beyond skeletal roadways in sparsely inhabited areas. Look at Wyoming on a map--fewer people than the 7x7 miles of SF.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 11 00:09:17 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Jul 10 22:39:39 2013.

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Most people who live in areas where ZipCars are parked don't own cars and didn't even before ZipCar.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 11 00:10:02 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Jul 10 22:41:18 2013.

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Not someone who commutes every workday and no other time.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu Jul 11 01:31:02 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 10 23:07:09 2013.

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Building a highway where there is low density encourages sprawl. And I have met people in some of these low density areas - they actively fight attempts to pave their roads and improve access, because more people would come to their towns. It's not the individuals living in the town who benefit from it so much as real estate developers.

As for the other stuff, maintenance and upkeep are important, but once you start turning 6 lane highways into 8 (for distances longer than a few miles), obviously there is density somewhere and something else needs to be looked at.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by WillD on Thu Jul 11 02:39:13 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 10 23:05:09 2013.

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Most of the country is not urban where subways are appropriate.

Geographic area does not matter, population does, and 80% of the nation's population lives in suburban or urban areas where subway or intensive commuter service is very much warranted.

Money has to be spent on highways there.

Simply amazing. I think you're on the wrong board.

I really doubt we spend more money in NYC on highways than we do on mass transit. Do you have those numbers?

Nope. But it doesn't particularly matter. As a nation we spend three times as much on highways as we do on mass transit. Whatever federal money NYC gets comes from that big pot of highway/transit funding, so the investment in highways anywhere else in the country is intimately tied to what money is available for mass transit construction in NYC.

I never said the AAA doesn't have political interests, only that they no longer carry the same amount of power they once did.

...and, again, that article rather ably demonstrates that your impression of their political power is misplaced.

I never shut out viable alternatives to automobile traffic.

Sure you did. You're maintaining the automobile's priority on city streets. Why shouldn't the city street exist to serve the transit passengers who will complete their journey at far less cost to the city than any automobile trip? Why should the city exist to support the luxury transportation when the cost in congestion (which again, you're NOT solving) will greatly diminish what little benefit those trips provide to the city?

Riding a bicycle is not a viable alternative to driving a car,

Except that it is. When was the last time you rode a bike? In what way are you qualified to expound upon what a bicyclist can and cannot do?

Solutions 1 and 6 are totally different, not the same.

Lets look at them:
1- We could have fewer cars and trucks on the road by increasing mass transit options and encouraging rail freight.
and
6- Increase rail freight opportunities to remove truck traffic from the roads, especially the BQE.
Fine, they may not be the same, you managed to put automobile traffic in #1. In that case #6 is wholly redundant because you already mentioned the diversion of freight from trucks in point #1.

Reducing car traffic is different from reducing automobile traffic.

Car is a synonym for automobile, so no, they're really not different.

You just want to lump all vehicles into a single category.

Well yeah, when you're talking about cars versus automobiles. Because they *are* the same thing.

Strategies to reduce congestion are not ridiculous

Okay, then lets go through them one by one:
1- We could have fewer cars and trucks on the road by increasing mass transit options and encouraging rail freight
Building mass transit to reduce congestion on highways is a fools errand. The people who avail themselves of whatever new transit service is offered will no longer be stuck in the traffic. But due to the triple convergence of mode, route, and time, whatever the reduction in traffic due to their trips being removed from a congested road will be filled by another commuter adjusting their route, mode, or departure time. You cannot build your way out of congestion, either by building roads or rails. All you can hope to do is maximize the number of people who are unaffected by that congestion on mass transit.
2A- Police should give tickets to double parking that causes traffic congestion and not merely view summonses as a means to raise revenue.
Do you have evidence that the police are currently not ticketing double parked cars despite having the opportunity to do so?
2B- Schedule as much roadwork as possible for the middle of the night or when the road is not busy, although there always will be some roadwork that causes some congestion.

2C- Also, try to minimize disruptions from utility work. I was once delayed 20 minutes on 62nd Street near the Queensborough Bridge one Sunday morning because only three vehicles were able to cross First Avenue during each traffic cycle due to the utility work. A traffic agent, if posted there, could have allowed vehicles to cross on a red signal, eliminating most of the delay since First Avenue traffic was very light at that time.

2D- Unless the road is widened, which may not be feasible, little can be done here except perhaps banning parking to increase traffic flow
These three are effectively the same and go back to holding the automobile's needs above the needs of all street users. Unfortunately with the infrastructure in NYC those demands are not particularly realistic.
2E- Again, all we can do regarding accidents is to try to prevent them. Once they occur, traffic congestion usually cannot be avoided if traffic volumes are high.
Accident/disabled vehicle clearance is a fairly valid congestion alleviation technique. It has been successfully implemented around the country. But it's normally done on limited access highways where the process of finding disabled vehicles can be largely automated. On arterial streets in NYC it'd be considerably more difficult.
3- Do not intentionally put traffic signals out of sync causing unnecessary congestion. However, even when they are in sync, congestion can be caused along intersecting streets because their green time has been reduced. In those cases, parking can be banned during those hours, adding a traffic lane near the intersection for right turning vehicles. When a computer failure causes out of sync signals, a smooth sailing roadway can be instantly turned into a parking lot with the same number of vehicles. Fortunately, that problem is usually corrected in a few hours.
Again, all other requirements are secondary to the needs of the driver, who apparently needs to have the maximum amount of green light time as is humanly possible. I guess it's to hell with someone's grandmother trying to get across the street after getting off a bus.
4- If there is inadequate green time, that should be corrected, if possible, which may not be that easy to do.

5- The only way to reduce the numbers of pedestrians crossing at an intersection is to either add a mid-block crossing or build a pedestrian overpass.
Oh, I didn't notice that 4 was redundant based on what you said in 3. But 5 is laughable. Now the pedestrians have to climb and descend a series of steps just so the driver, who again has sacrosanct ownership of the road, is not delayed by a few minutes. That is to say nothing of the incredible cost to the city to construct anything close to the number of pedestrian overpasses that would be required to make even a tiny impact on traffic congestion. Grade separation of pedestrians and automobiles may be the most inconvenient, most expensive way to go about congestion relief.

6 is of course redundant.
7- Add more trains and buses or donít overdevelop.
Also redundant with #1 and #6. So really in here you have about 3 complete, unique ideas you stretched into eleven bulleted points by repeating them. And what do you mean by "overdevelop?" Do you mean to not develop land past the point where a hierarchical street grid can easily convey most of the people living in an area through the peak period without experiencing congestion? Because I seriously doubt there is *anywhere* in the five boroughs that even remotely meets that criteria. There are sparsely populated exurban developments served by 4 lane "super streets" with limited grade separation which manage to experience peak period congestion. NYC is beyond hope of ever conveying an appreciable fraction of its residents by automobile without experiencing congestion.
People like you believe congestion is a good thing because it discourages driving, except instead of calling it what is it "traffic congestion", you renamed it as "traffic calming."

No, people like me realize that it's pointless to worry about traffic congestion in an area as urban as New York City. The triple convergence will ensure that whatever means you take to combat traffic congestion will have zero impact on the road itself. Traffic congestion is the apportionment of real estate on the city street by the only means possible: waiting in line. New York City will never want for people willing to stand in line for the privilege of driving their car into the city, and it will always be congested during rush hour, no matter how you rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic.

You don't care who you inconvenience.

Nobody forces anyone to drive into the city. That is a conscious decision relating the potential difference in travel time relative to mass transit with the value of that time to the person making the decision. If they have the luxury of deciding their saved time makes driving worthwhile then they have nothing to complain about when they and the others who made the same decision overwhelm the infrastructure and require that infrastructure be apportioned by waiting in line.

And reducing congestion does not result in the building of new highways

Lets dispense with the notion that anything you've proposed would result in congestion relief. By now it should be clear that nothing you propose will reduce congestion in the slightest. Call it rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic, playing with the leaves while the roots rot, or any other metaphor, the point is only one of your proposed strategies has any basis in reality, and then only in a different application.

And it's not your purported "congestion reduction" which would put us at risk of highway expansion, it's your complete and utter dedication of every square foot of street to the automobile. You're making pedestrian, bike, and transit traffic subservient to the needs of the driver. That will inevitably marginalize the utility of those alternatives to the automobile and strengthen the automobile's place in NYC. Over time that strengthened position will make itself felt through political calls to widen highways in response to the uptick in automobile usage due to the marginalization of alternative modes.

Where is your source that it does? Oh, you don't need sources, only I do.

It's opinion, but it's happened before. One need only look at Moses' New York to see a similar situation. And so far I'm the only one of us to actually post a reference to something said here. Even in your commentary on the neighborhood rag you write for you only managed to reference yourself and a Streetsblog post about how insanely successful bike commuting can be.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Jul 11 05:44:19 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 10 23:07:09 2013.

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Of course, you are not talking about New York City which is what this discussion is about. Of course they are continuing to build highways where there is no mass transit because the densities can't support it.

We're talking about Federal transportation spending, so it doesn't matter where it's spent. A billion dollars spent on highways where there is no mass transit is a billion dollars not spent on mass transit in New York City.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Jul 11 05:48:22 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu Jul 11 01:31:02 2013.

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As for the other stuff, maintenance and upkeep are important, but once you start turning 6 lane highways into 8 (for distances longer than a few miles), obviously there is density somewhere and something else needs to be looked at.

And the density certainly exists for my aforementioned additional lane to be dedicated to transit, or at the very least, an HOV lane. It's not.


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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Jul 11 05:58:18 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 10 23:13:05 2013.

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How affordable are zip cars and are they available all over?

Rates and plans

Locations

Black cars are also expensive for ten or 20 mile trips.

I know someone who uses them to go six miles each way to Costco, so they're affordable enough for that trip.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Jul 11 06:05:51 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 11 00:09:17 2013.

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Most people who live in areas where ZipCars are parked don't own cars and didn't even before ZipCar.

Most New York City households don't own cars and didn't before ZipCar. If Baltimore is any indication, some of those who did have probably given them up ZipCar started. Another survey, probably over multiple locations, says 43 percent of members owned a car in the past five years but only 11 percent do now.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Jul 11 06:10:23 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 10 23:11:25 2013.

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I wasn't addressing driving in Manhattan with that comment, but your comment about taking away a privilege. And only about half the passengers have an unlimited.

You weren't talking about Manhattan when you said "Yes, some commute to Mahattan by car when they shouldn't but others have little choice or don't want to be stuffed into crowded trains"?

Many who commute everyday don't have one because they still don't use the system enough for it to be worthwhile for them.

It is if you have to make a second transfer.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jul 11 11:32:15 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by WillD on Thu Jul 11 02:39:13 2013.

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This is what happens when you are so sure you are right, your mind is closed to all other opinions. Thanks for rewriting my number 1. Where did I mention truck traffic in number 1? You did. I didn't. Numbers 1 and 6 the way I wrote them are two separate thoughts. I also never put cars in one category and automobiles into another. Quit making up things to prove ridiculous points.

Do you have any idea what type of density is required to build a subway line? Just because an area is considered urban, it does not mean, a subway is justified. Sure, many areas can benefit by improved bus service and by all means, that should be done, but don't forget, buses use roads too.

You obviously are one who hates cars and do not care about congestion because you do not drive and it is not your problem. So your attitude is let them suffer and do nothing to help them, and nothing will help. You are incredibly selfish. the fact is I can cite where improvements have been made and congestion has been reduced. No new cars came to replace that congestion according to your misguided theory which is only true if an entirely new highway is built.

I have also said nothing about everything being subservient to the automobile. Green time should be increased for pedestrians where necessary and I am a firm believer in mass transit and also support accommodating bicycles where appropriate and stated such. That does not mean though that you inconvenience the masses to help five percent of the population by reducing road space for other vehicles to accommodate cyclists on every roadway like you believe.

And if you can say that a bicycle is a viable alternative to driving a car with a straight face, you are truly laughable. Letme see you transport a trunkful of groceries on a bike or travel from New York to Boston on a bike. Or arrive at your office hot and sweaty or soaked in rainwater after an hour or two bike ride.

The problem with you and people like you who require sources for all beliefs is that you have no idea what common sense is because you do not have any. All you know is what you read in books. If I told you that people eat when they are hungry, you would ask me what is my source for that belief.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jul 11 11:36:40 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Jul 11 05:44:19 2013.

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But that billion dollars spent on those highways may also be necessary. But I do agree that we as a nation need to spend more on mass transit. I also don't see why we can't spend more on both. Many highways have reached their age where they need to be replaced. That needs to be done and it would also help the economy. The pie just needs to be larger.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jul 11 11:41:07 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Jul 11 06:10:23 2013.

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Yes in that quote I was talking about Manhattan. I agree with you about a time based transfer and don't believe someone should have to by an unlimited pass because his trip requires multiple transfers. If there was no fare penalty and trains and buses were less crowded and routes more convenient and reliability improved, more would use mass transit and fewer would travel by car and taxi.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jul 11 12:04:23 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jul 11 11:36:40 2013.

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I also don't see why we can't spend more on both. Many highways have reached their age where they need to be replaced.

We could not afford to build both, when we built the highways that currently have to be replaced. We built highways instead of mass transit. Now, we cannot afford (or unwilling to spend enough) to replace only the highways.

It's not just a taxation question. Most urban and suburban areas cannot afford to remove from the tax rolls the area required by highways.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jul 11 12:24:20 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jul 10 23:42:07 2013.

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People have the impression that the entire US is covered with major highways where they are not needed. That, however, is not the case. When flying from Vegas to NY last year I was amazed to see such large portions of the country with only unpaved dirt roads.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by Wakefield-241st Street on Thu Jul 11 13:52:01 2013, in response to What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 9 12:40:18 2013.

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2- Obstacles in the road causing a blockage and merger. These can be any of the following: Double parking, Road work, Lane closure due to utility work, Road narrowing down, An accident

And you forgot drivers illegally blocking intersections (gridlock), as well as planned street closures due to authorized special events.

3- Traffic signals out of sync many times on purpose or occasionally when the computers are malfunctioning..

How do you know the traffic signals are purporsly out of sync?

It also makes no sense for the traffic signals to force you to slow down around schools at 3:00 a.m., which they do.

If you have kids then traffic safety is most important with ways to mitigate speeding, even if it takes timing of signals to slow down reckless drivers with zero regard for human life or property. (Get it?)

Schedule as much roadwork as possible for the middle of the night or when the road is not busy, although there always will be some roadwork that causes some congestion.

Middle of the night in residential streets? You try to live with noise. Sometimes it works to schedule overnight work, sometimes it doesn't.

Again, all we can do regarding accidents is to try to prevent them. Once they occur, traffic congestion usually cannot be avoided if traffic volumes are high.

Want to prevent accidents? Have NYPD remove the most dangerous drivers, motorcyclists, and bikers off the roads, for good. Pass a law where if an law enforcement officer observes five or more VTL violations on one driver, pull him/her over, make an arrest for felony aggravated reckless driving, Class E and impound the car if allowed to do so.

BTW: Did you ride the Bx41 SBS+ route yet? I am waiting to read yuur take on the newest so-called BRT route.

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Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion

Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 11 16:42:53 2013, in response to Re: What Really Causes Traffic Congestion, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Jul 11 06:05:51 2013.

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Why are you repeating what I said?

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