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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Apr 6 17:15:49 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 17:06:32 2012. Again....people dont have this problem on penn bound trains yet it will be some major issue on GC trains? Stats for this? Theres only about two to three trainloads of people using that station now...hat number can only go down. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 17:16:40 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 5 20:39:42 2012. I have also said not everyone has a car at their disposal (cafeteria workers, mail room, Indian consultants) and could give access to office park jobs that they cannot get to. And there are those days when you car is in the shop, sometimes for several days.You are the one that brought up TVM's as a cost to keep a station open. I think they have gone way overboard in installing these things at $50K a pop. Easiest thing to do - let it go, if the market does not use HPA, let it close, but no reason to make committments now. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 17:20:01 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Apr 6 16:42:08 2012. I don't know where this bus-train-bus came into being. Some people can walk to their station, or get dropped off, eliminating a car from a multiple car family. Then it is just Train-Bus, not unreasonable, if the bus waits for the train. That is exactly what HART does with their feeder buses at Huntington Station - waits for specific trains to arrive (then departs, and vice versa in the AM.) |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Apr 6 17:21:11 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 17:11:41 2012. You attacked me first. I only got nasty after you got nasty in response to my posts. This was a fun thread until you started hurling insults. Read it threaded...YOU started. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Apr 6 17:22:57 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 17:16:40 2012. DUde. I never once mentioned TVMs. Ever. This is the fourth time you accused me of this. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Apr 6 17:27:01 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 17:20:01 2012. While I can see a bus waiting for a train...I cant see a train waiting for a bus. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 17:27:23 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Apr 6 17:21:11 2012. To tell you the truth, I don't remember, posts are seconds apart. Shall we have a truce ? I admit I have short fuse, but everybody has hot button issues, and I can't stand absolutes like "everybody" or "nobody". |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 17:29:22 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Apr 6 17:22:57 2012. When we were talking about benefits of shutting an unstaffed station: TVM's, maintenance, snow, etc. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Apr 6 17:30:35 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 17:27:23 2012. Thats fine...i come here to have fun....not get high blood pressure. :) |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by J trainloco on Fri Apr 6 17:33:26 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Apr 6 09:05:12 2012. With what money? LIRR is getting a new tunnel to manhattan. Now we're going to pay for another? |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 17:33:27 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Apr 6 17:09:55 2012. Not exactly a scheduled event, but derailments & blackouts in NYPS, usually Amtrak and NJT, but still enough to screw up the place, and there is a formal detour plan, and that involves diverting specific MU's to HPA.When ESA opens, neither it nor NYPS will be able to take all of the other's business, especially with the Brooklyn trains added to the main line. It would be very reckless to take away this contingency, when there is little to be gained financially. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Apr 6 17:33:54 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 17:29:22 2012. That wasnt me..... You may be confusing me with Chris R16 or someone else. I never brought up TVM. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 17:35:13 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Apr 6 17:13:29 2012. OK, but if you think it is such a stupid idea, and Helena didn't do her homework, go up there and tell them. I am not a constituent anymore. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Apr 6 17:36:08 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 17:33:27 2012. HPA couldnt take them all either. Once ESA opens thats another whole terminal. And theres always brookln too. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Apr 6 17:37:52 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 17:35:13 2012. I rarely take the lirr anynore either. I usually drive into the city....which is often. Granted its never at peak direction. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 17:38:57 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Apr 6 17:15:49 2012. There's no standees to NYPS ? Come now. I once commuted.We don't know how the trains and riders will split between the 2 terminals, what the service plan is, what their operating subsidies will be to permit them to do what they should, MTA debt bombs, which way Brooklyn bound passengers will go. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 17:52:08 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Apr 6 17:36:08 2012. HPA takes pressure of, not a total solution, nothing is.If Brooklyn goes to TA fare structure, and they make old Jay interlocking area tougher to access Atlantic Branch from main part of station, Brooklyn is a no-go. ESA is spoken for: 28 TPH, which specific trains, we don't know. Not much more you can add to that. Now think about Lower Montauk diesels. They would have to route them via station Track 4 & 5 so as not to tie up Jay ether. That also depends on which main line track east of Jamaica they are coming in on. If they come in on the northern most main line track, easiest thing to do is route on Track 1 and onto main line to LIC via HPA on local track. Again, not a good idea to bulldoze HPA. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 17:58:13 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Apr 6 17:27:01 2012. Speonk - East Hampton shuttles - they don't have the rest of the RR as dominos - they can hold 10 minutes without messing up the rest of the RR.Old LIRR Road'n'Rail bus service from Greenport and Hamptons/Montauk to Huntington and Babylon: they allowed more connection time for Train-Bus than Bus -Train. The Montauk buses were so overwhelmed, running in 2 and 3 sections that the service was replaced with extended Patchogue Scoots in 1976. But it had a good 13 year run and growing patronage. I have all the schedules. It used to be Patchoge , Sopeonk, and Montauk were 3 distinct rail servcies with no overlap and had their own crews and equipment pools.. Now it is all blended. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 18:20:28 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Apr 6 08:25:30 2012. Veolia cannot mint money nor go bankrupt.They struck a good balance between shutting down half the system or paying employees Min Wage and No benefits. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 6 18:39:42 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 17:58:13 2012. I have the same schedules. They used those buses because they didn't want to use full trains back then. They wanted to abandon the whole east end of rail service. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 6 18:41:42 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 17:52:08 2012. To use LIC, they don't have to run the trains via Lower Montauk, just as they don't now with HPA service. They can still run the mainline. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 6 18:43:02 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 17:38:57 2012. I didn't say there weren't standees. However, it's not an issue with Penn trains, why would it be with ESA trains? Again, only 2 or 3 trainloads of people use HPA currently, that number will only get lower. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 20:04:56 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 6 18:39:42 2012. Two things triggered the Road'n'Rail:1) There were East End shuttles in the 1950's: an RDC on each line with a P54D trailer. Budd told them to stop that. 2) Greyhound was threatening to go to the East End, Road'n'Rail set up to block franchise. Bus industry was not de-rgeulated until 1982, so that worked. They had mail contracts until 1966, so that might have complicated trains-offs. The only Greenport train on weekdays and non-summer weekends was basically 9am east, 3p west which had mail, baggage and express, Ditto for Montauk, but they also had a commuter train. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 20:06:59 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 6 18:43:02 2012. Yes, but 40-50% of NYPS passengers will likely shift to ESA. But there are too many unknown variables of supply and demand at this point. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Apr 7 00:04:54 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by J trainloco on Fri Apr 6 17:33:26 2012. It's just an idea |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Apr 7 00:07:39 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 16:55:19 2012. Aight, enough with the jabs like calling him feeble-minded. And the TVMs would have to stay for sure. Not having them at the station is asking for trouble |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Apr 7 00:13:12 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Apr 6 17:27:01 2012. Agreed, at least not on the majority of the LIRR |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Apr 7 00:16:21 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 17:20:01 2012. Getting dropped off only works if its not inconveniencing the other person. The only thing feasible that you listed is living (or working) near the train on at least one end |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Apr 7 00:21:49 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 17:03:41 2012. Okay, Chicago: meaning they're in a dense area and likely don't have a car. So of course they're going to take the train. I'm not familiar with the other locations but I'm going to hazard a guess that those folks are not riding a bus in to the train station from their homes just to ride the train to Kenosha to catch a bus to their office. How dense are the areas around those other stations you mentioned? Is it perhaps likely that they're simply walking to the train? |
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Bushwick (Re: Long Island City...) |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Apr 7 00:36:52 2012, in response to Long Island City..., posted by aaron on Thu Mar 29 20:30:28 2012. What about running trains into/out of Bushwick? Not that I think it's actually a feasible idea, but it's fun to debate. Bushwick does have a connection to the L, which would be perfect for NYU students on diesel lines (since diesels can not go to ESA where they'd otherwise be able to catch the 6), but other than that, I don't believe there's much of a draw to the 14th St region, or am I wrong? With Bushwick gentrifying and Williamsburg already gentrified right next door, I could see it being a potential reverse peak market to places like Jamaica and western Nassau County.Another option for Bushwick would be if they turned the lower Montauk into LRT, in which case I'd send trains over the Willy B and terminate in the old trolley terminal, even though I'd see that be more of a transfer point than a destination. Again, more of a reverse peak market IMO And lastly, someone here mentioned if lower Montauk were a subway, a branch off the L train running via the Bushwick to Jamaica could work. Opinions? |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Apr 7 01:19:53 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Apr 6 12:41:50 2012. Then we're simply not talking about the same group of people. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Apr 7 01:35:22 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 16:55:19 2012. 2 track platform at a stub track in LIC can't handle multiple 10 car trains.FYI, LIC has now at least three high platforms with a track on each side, some of them with third rail, as I reported two years ago. They might be short but adequate for emergencies |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Apr 7 01:46:57 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 17:16:40 2012. cafeteria workers, mail room, Indian consultantsI can't really picture anyone in LI with those jobs not owning a car... (And what are "Indian consultants" anyway?) :P |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 7 05:35:00 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Apr 7 01:35:22 2012. They are more than adequate for the rare times there may be an emergency. The chance of an "emergency" need for it will diminish too, now that the LIRR will not be completely reliant on the original four Penn Station East River tubes. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 7 05:39:50 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Apr 7 01:19:53 2012. It's people in general. Again, all told, there are only about 2 or 3 trainloads of people that even use HPA today. That number will severely diminish further once EAS opens. HPA trains are NOT only used by just people that came from diesel branches. Of those 2 or 3 trainloads of people, a part of them transferred to the train at Jamaica for the specific reason to go there for easier East Side destination. Those people will no longer do that. So all you have left are the people that stay on from diesel lines, a portion of which ALSO stay on only because they want East Side Access, and were lucky enough to be already on the train. So that leaves just a fraction of a fraction of people on those 2 or 3 trainloads, that only stayed on because they didn't want to change at Jamaica and choose HPA instead. |
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Re: Bushwick (Re: Long Island City...) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 7 05:43:02 2012, in response to Bushwick (Re: Long Island City...), posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Apr 7 00:36:52 2012. Interesting idea, but the Bushwick line is full of grade crossings, I believe is only one trackway wide in some spots, and does still have freight service. It would only work with Light Rail, and that would spell the end of freight, which I don't think would be a good idea. There's pros and cons. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 7 05:44:33 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Apr 7 00:16:21 2012. "Dropping off" only works when it's occasional. To be at the mercy of someone having to drop you off regularly every day is not ideal. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 7 05:51:39 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Apr 7 00:07:39 2012. The best has to be that I never even talked about TVMs at all in this discussion, yet I got accused multiple times of using that "feeble minded" excuse. Even after saying multiple times I did not once discuss TVMs, it still is being used as an "excuse" I came up with, yet I didn't!I just clicked "view flat", and the first post that mentions TVM in this thread is this post, on page 4 of this thread if viewed flat, so I don't know where this accusation keeps coming from. I never ONCE ever talked about TVM's in reference to this topic at all in this thread or any other thread, so don't know where this keeps coming from. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 7 05:57:14 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 7 05:51:39 2012. Okay, I now searched the thread viewed flat for "ticket", and now I see what happened, this is the first post to mention TVM's (actually it says ticket machines), and I was accused the whole thread for making this statement, and it wasn't even me!I know we made a "truce", so apologize for going on and on about this, but it seems the nasty responses and tones towards me this whole thread by him was partly started by posts I didn't even make! |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 7 05:59:04 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 7 05:57:14 2012. Not that the other Chris would have deserved the nasty tones and responses either, but just saying.... |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 7 06:03:17 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 20:06:59 2012. Where does the 40-50% number come from? I am not saying it's not true, but I would like to see an official source for that.That said, Penn Station trains would be much emptier then too, so people that prior would have stayed on HPA trains to avoid the busy Penn Station trains, may now have more of a reason to get off and take them. It works both ways you know. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 7 06:13:03 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 20:04:56 2012. Someone else may have more on this, but "RoadN'Rail" for the Montauk Branch was ended when the line east of Speonk was rebuilt in the late 70's, and opened for service in time for the 1980 season.Prior to the line being rebuilt there was much discussion about rail service ending at Speonk, and selling off the ROW east of there. The reason for the bus service was not because of a compliment to the rail service but because they wanted to abandon both east end lines (east of Ronkonkoma and east of Speonk). Happily that did not happen, and when the State of NY and the MTA agreed to fund the rebuild of the LIRR from Speonk to Montauk, a stipulation was that the LIRR run all schedules as rail service. The old Road N Rail service really has nothing to do with this discussion, as it's reason for being was to replace the east end rail lines, or at least use buses instead of trains most of the time. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 7 06:20:05 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Apr 6 16:47:26 2012. This is true of course, but that isn't the point. That 2 to 3 carload number is just being used to show how many people use the service. That's not a lot of people in the scheme of things. With that few people (and less in the future) using it, as well as there being a new station in Sunnyside as well, is it really necessary to have two very low use stations (LIC and HPA) in walking distance of eachother? |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 7 06:22:18 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Apr 6 16:46:43 2012. There's problems with that as well. Much of the freight currently is done in the day. There's also a problem with Fresh Pond Yard in Glendale. I remember vaguely there being problems with the neighborhood there, and they aren't even allowed to run stuff there at night or switch trains, etc after a certain hour at night because of the noise. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 7 07:37:43 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Apr 7 00:21:49 2012. They live in an an urban area, work in sprawl beyond Kenosha in Racine. So they take a feeder bus to work once getting off the train. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 7 07:40:34 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 7 06:13:03 2012. But it was to point out Rail to Bus and Bus to Rail did work, regardless of the purpose. |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 7 07:50:13 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Apr 7 01:46:57 2012. They exist. They ride buses, and their job opportunities are limited. |
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Re: Bushwick (Re: Long Island City...) |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Apr 7 08:05:38 2012, in response to Re: Bushwick (Re: Long Island City...), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 7 05:43:02 2012. Bushwick... Lower Montauk...These are "RIGHTS OF WAY", and they happen to have tracks on them. The tracks are in use. If they needed to be used for transit of some kind, then new additional tracks need to be built. Possibly in a tunnel, more likely on an elevated structure. Railroad operations continue unabated on existing track, your new service runs on new tracks. ROAR |
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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City... |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Apr 7 09:02:12 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 7 07:40:34 2012. But not really. Those buses were run to replace rail not compliment it. |
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Re: Bushwick (Re: Long Island City...) |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Apr 7 09:06:03 2012, in response to Re: Bushwick (Re: Long Island City...), posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Apr 7 08:05:38 2012. I dont think the surroinding communities along most of the montauk branch would ever let them put an elevated structure over it....they barely accept just the current trains and tracks. As for tbe Bushwick....I dont know if the ROW is wide enough...not sure. |
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