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| Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... (662090) | |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by Easy on Sun Sep 12 22:02:35 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Sep 12 21:55:28 2010. I think that Methodists are known for being boring although I went a couple of times to 1st AME (FAME) in LA and it was ok. A much younger crowd than where I went as a kid. Pentecostals are often referred to as "Holy Rollers" with the speaking in tongues and all that stuff, but not all of them are like that. The one that my wife goes to is a mega church and it's pretty tame. No different than anywhere else really. |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by Easy on Sun Sep 12 22:04:48 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Sep 12 22:02:14 2010. What about the Immaculate Conception? I don't think that they have that. |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Sep 12 22:09:25 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by Easy on Sun Sep 12 21:46:11 2010. I just don't like the Evangalistic type dogma. I don't like the minister going into a trance preaching (which does happen in a lot of Black churches, but also in the "holy roller" churches too). Basically, I just don't like being preached to, but that's just me. You get the sermon or homily at the Catholic church, or the mainline Prtoestant churches, but it's not like those screaming and hollering trance like sermons.I do agree with you on the music in Black churches, that's probably what I liked better about the AME church vs the regular Metholdist churches, and also even in other Black churches. I like the choir swaying back and forth singing as many black churches do, but I just can't handle the "preachy" type of sermons, THAT I can't handle. As for length, yes, Catholic churches...aside from Good Friday or Palm Sunday when they do the whole Passion, you are GUARANTEED in and out in 45 minutes to an hour at any Catholic church....the Protestant mainline ones are about an hour, but can go over....and the Evangalistic....yes, it can take hours, some even spend all day in church. I have a friend from college that became a Morman when he met his wife, and he spends the entire Sunday in church, and other days of the week he goes in the evening. THAT I really can't handle. We are still friends, but it's not like it used to be...he learned very quick not to start on "trying to save me", and once we got past that, we can still be friends, lol. |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by BMTLines on Sun Sep 12 22:13:58 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by Easy on Sun Sep 12 21:46:11 2010. The good part about Catholic mass is that it's short OTOH the Greek Orthodox services are much longer. My parents would take me to church when I was a kid and believe me I was bored. Not only did I have to stand through a two hour mass, but it was all spoken in Greek. While I did understand conversational Greek, I did not understand much of the high level vocabulary used in the mass. These days I only go for the major holidays like Good Friday and Easter... |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by Easy on Sun Sep 12 22:15:10 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Sep 12 22:09:25 2010. lol. I remember talking to a Catholic coworker about how long I had spent in a service (2+ hours) and I remember him saying that if his mass went over 45 minutes (I think) that he and most of the rest would just walk out. |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by Easy on Sun Sep 12 22:16:36 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by BMTLines on Sun Sep 12 22:13:58 2010. I have never been to a Greek Orthodox or even known anyone that has. It must be a small denomination...outside of Greece that is. |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Sep 12 22:17:51 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by Easy on Sun Sep 12 22:04:48 2010. I don't think so. They don't put Mary on the same level as the Catholic church, I don't believe. |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Sep 12 22:24:23 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by Easy on Sun Sep 12 22:15:10 2010. Hahaha, yeah, Catholics have it pretty down pat...in and out. At some of the Catholic churches I have been to, people leave right after Communion, they recieve and walk out. Granted, the mass is usually only about 10 minutes more (lol, guaranteed), but still walk out.I had to laugh when I went to a christening for a cousin's of mine church a few months ago at a Lutheran church. As I said, I am Catholic, and am used to the almost assembly line mass that is done in the Catholic church. Catholic churches are usually much larger, and much busier, and they manage to give communion to everyone in there in a matter of minutes --- up the aisle, back to your pew. In this Lutheran mass, they served Communion, and it was probably a 1/4 of the amount of people I have seen in most Catholic masses, and it took them more than a 1/2 hour to do the communion. I was laughing with my girlfriend, because I said, in the Catholic church, they would have gotten it done in less than 5 minutes with the amount of people at this christening, lol. But they don't do communion every mass like Catholics do, so as I said, they got the whole thing down pat, lol.... |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Sep 12 22:26:19 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by Easy on Sun Sep 12 22:15:10 2010. |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Sep 12 22:29:07 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by BMTLines on Sun Sep 12 22:13:58 2010. Good God, I would have gone nuts...2 hours. I get frigity in the 45 minute to an hour mass at Catholic church. An Easter mass could be a little more than an hour, and Good Friday and Palm Sunday service is slightly over an hour because they read the Passion, but even Christmas is 45 minutes to an hour at Catholic Church....the only thing that may make Christmas slightly longer than a normal mass is that there are usually way more people so Communion may take an extra "5 Minutes", lol. |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by Easy on Sun Sep 12 22:30:14 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Sep 12 22:24:23 2010. Yeah I remember communion at an AME church and it was exactly as you describe. 4 times as long for half the number of people. But it was a rare thing and not an everyday deal like at a Catholic mass. |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Sep 12 22:31:39 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by Easy on Sun Sep 12 22:16:36 2010. I have a relative that married a Greek guy (who is basically unreligious), but their wedding was in the Greek Church, so that was the only time I have been in one. I don't remember much about it, but it was a Wedding, so it wasn't a normal service anyway. |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by Easy on Sun Sep 12 22:33:43 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Sep 12 22:31:39 2010. The first Catholic mass that I went to was at a wedding and it was by far the most boring. It was probably 20 or 30 minutes long but it felt longer. The other Catholic masses that I have been to have been at a Filipino Catholic mass so I don't know if they were representative. They were boring as well, but they were short. |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by ntrainride on Sun Sep 12 22:35:31 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by SMAZ on Sun Sep 12 21:36:22 2010. Seriously, I care not a whit whatever anybody chooses to "worship". Elect a friggin' pagan for all I care. Just make sure it don't effect your presidential duties and obligations. And no fair trying to get in good with some religionistas from your own belief system. And now kowtowing to ANY religious group in general. Follow the boy scouts way:"A boy scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverant." That, I could live with. |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by Easy on Sun Sep 12 22:37:37 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Sep 12 22:31:39 2010. In keeping with the thread title have you ever been to a non-Christian service? Are Christiansand/or atheists welcome at Jewish and Muslim services? |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Sep 12 22:37:50 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by Easy on Sun Sep 12 22:33:43 2010. Heh, Catholic mass is very boring. And Wedding masses aren't that much longer than a regular mass, they are also only about an hour or so (if they do the whole mass, some Weddings don't do a mass I don't think, it depends on what the couple chooses).But mass is very boring....they even have to ring bells to wake you up when the priest is the blessing of the host and wine is being done, lol.... |
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Re: Dear Insensitive People.... |
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Posted by jimmymc25 on Sun Sep 12 22:44:41 2010, in response to Re: Dear Insensitive People...., posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Sep 12 20:46:12 2010. Sounds so simple...but emotion sickness rules once again. And of course corporate media fuels it more & more & more.Let 'em build what they want then they gotta watch what our crazies try to do to them....even though they're not the "radicals. Jimmymc25 |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Sep 12 22:45:54 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by Easy on Sun Sep 12 22:37:37 2010. That's a good question. I have never been at Jewish or Muslim service.Catholics and Protestants used to be like that until more recently. Since my parents are a "mixed marriage" (LOL), one Catholic the other Protestant, my grandparents were opposites....and back then, Catholics hated Protestants, and protestants hated Catholics. I think the ceiling would fall down in the church if you were a protestant entering a Catholic church way back when, and the same for Catholics going into Protestant churches. Today, Catholics allow anyone to be a part of the mass, you just can't receive communion if you are not Catholic. (Non Catholics are forbidden from recieiving Communion. But that's it....anyone can come in. Protestant churches vary, but they aren't as strict with communion as Catholics are. For example, they welcome anyone in, and they welcome anyone to have communion (that probably varies by denomination). I had communion at the Lutheran church with that cristening I went to, and they allow it (although technically, that isn't allowed with Catholic Church, technically I shouldn't have done that, if I really cared). But communion is the only thing that's restricted....anyone can attend and participate in service. I have no idea in regards to non-Jews going to a Jewish service, but I don't believe Muslims allow it, but who knows. |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by Easy on Sun Sep 12 22:56:28 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Sep 12 22:45:54 2010. I think that I would only go to a Jewish or Muslim service just to see what it was like. Like when I went to a kosher restaurant just to see what the food was like. Never got any food though as when I walked in it seemed like the entire restaurant froze and stared. I wouldn't want the same experience in a Temple. Maybe I need a yarmulke or something but that seems like false advertising. lol |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by ntrainride on Sun Sep 12 23:05:51 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Sep 12 22:37:50 2010. "Heh, Catholic mass is very boring."Insulting statement for no good reason. You have to goof on the Catholics...for what? Are they the only religion that "bores" you? I don't think anybody gives a crap what bores you. If you're somehow trying to appease "others" because of some of the posts you've been making, something along the lines of "see, while I do condemn the radical adherents to another faith, I'm offering this statement about my religion to show how really broadminded I am", it's an epic fail. The other guys did fuck up, no need to prove anything about your messages regarding same. I'm with you, mainly, on that whole subject. Let `em stand as such. I think you just got a little carried away with yourself, as we all do at times. |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by Easy on Sun Sep 12 23:10:19 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by ntrainride on Sun Sep 12 23:05:51 2010. Huh? Please read our entire discussion because you seem to have misinterpreted something. |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by ntrainride on Sun Sep 12 23:11:51 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by Easy on Sun Sep 12 22:56:28 2010. "...I walked in it seemed like the entire restaurant froze and stared."When everybody freezes and stares, screw `em. That's when you shine. |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Sep 12 23:13:08 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by ntrainride on Sun Sep 12 23:05:51 2010. Insulting statement for no good reason. You have to goof on the Catholics...for what?Oh stop it, I am Catholic. I went to Catholic school for 12 years. I am allowed to give my opinion on MY religion. That's not saying anything is "wrong" with Catholics, I wouldn't want to be any other religion. But it is what it is, the mass is "boring" next to services at other churches I have been to. And there's no "right or wrong" answer when something is a matter of opinion, or likes or dislikes. And it also doesn't mean there's "anything wrong with it". You are being too hypersensitive, and reading more into it than was intended. |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Sep 12 23:17:01 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by Easy on Sun Sep 12 23:10:19 2010. He did misinterpret what was said, and big.I thought we were having an interesting, enjoyable, and fun conversation.....which was completely light hearted. I don't know where that whole thing came from out of left field, as I don't think anyone was criticizing any religion in that conversation....any of them. |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by Easy on Sun Sep 12 23:18:20 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by ntrainride on Sun Sep 12 23:11:51 2010. I wasn't expecting it and felt very uncomfortable. Like I didn't belong. You don't expect to get such a reception in a public restaurant. Not sure what it was about. Maybe I look too Muslim. |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by Easy on Sun Sep 12 23:19:46 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Sep 12 23:17:01 2010. Yes we are and I am interested in your opinions. |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Sep 12 23:21:22 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by Easy on Sun Sep 12 23:19:46 2010. And I was in yours. And so what, the Catholic Mass isn't the most lively service....so what! There's nothing wrong with not being as lively as other services.... |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by ntrainride on Sun Sep 12 23:22:32 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by Easy on Sun Sep 12 23:10:19 2010. You said:"The first Catholic mass that I went to was at a wedding and it was by far the most boring. It was probably 20 or 30 minutes long but it felt longer. The other Catholic masses that I have been to have been at a Filipino Catholic mass so I don't know if they were representative. They were boring as well, but they were short." He said: "Heh, Catholic mass is very boring. And Wedding masses aren't that much longer than a regular mass, they are also only about an hour or so (if they do the whole mass, some Weddings don't do a mass I don't think, it depends on what the couple chooses). But mass is very boring....they even have to ring bells to wake you up when the priest is the blessing of the host and wine is being done, lol...." Guess I just don't see the point of saying stuff like that. Personally, I think all religions suck...not the individual elements of each religion, which ain't my call to make...just the concept in general. This has nothing to do with any disdain I may hold for any religious belief that causes harm to anyone, but I wouldn't have to know of any religion to object to something like that, I just need to be aware of the bad thing being espoused. |
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Re: Dear Insensitive People.... |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Sep 12 23:23:57 2010, in response to Re: Dear Insensitive People...., posted by jimmymc25 on Sun Sep 12 22:44:41 2010. What humanity has learned from all other previous acts of terrorism is that when you take away their toys and their shit doesn't work, then they have to find some other way to attain their cause. It's worked well throughout history until 2001. :( |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by ntrainride on Sun Sep 12 23:25:29 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Sep 12 23:13:08 2010. But saying something like that is...ahhh, never mind. |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Sep 12 23:27:01 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by ntrainride on Sun Sep 12 23:25:29 2010. But saying something like that is.... . . just fine. |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by Easy on Sun Sep 12 23:27:21 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by ntrainride on Sun Sep 12 23:22:32 2010. He's just giving his opinions. Nothing more. He's not trying to make up for any other comments, just telling the truth as he sees it. |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Sep 12 23:28:56 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by ntrainride on Sun Sep 12 23:22:32 2010. Dude, you are reading WAY to much into our light hearted conversation. Do we have to end every post with "not that there's anything wrong with that".So what, the Catholic Mass isn't the most lively service. Not that there's anything wrong with that. No big deal. As to you tirade claiming I was trying to lessen the sting of comments towards Muslims or something by lessening Christianity....I mean get real here, I wasn't even remotely even thinking about "Muslims" or anyone else in this sub thread, nor had any sort of agenda....the two of us were just having a light hearted conversation on our personal opinions/experiences we had with various services at some different religions. Not brain surgery. |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by ntrainride on Sun Sep 12 23:29:42 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by Easy on Sun Sep 12 23:18:20 2010. It happens. I've been to parties where I'm the only white face for literally miles, and I've always gotten my groove on nonetheless. Ignore the starers and act like of course I'm here, silly. Yes, I'd like the fish, please. |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by Easy on Sun Sep 12 23:38:19 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by ntrainride on Sun Sep 12 23:29:42 2010. Maybe had I been expecting it I would have been better prepared. It was like something out of a movie where everyone in the restaurant stopped and stared. Like I was interrupting a private party. |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by ntrainride on Sun Sep 12 23:40:08 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Sep 12 23:28:56 2010. Okay, I was done with this particular line...but, fuck it, ya pushed me into "gettin' real". Sigh.See, that line of thought ("boring") just strikes me as, umm, the typical suburbanite point of view about most things. Actually being smug enough to think that you're qualified, no, deserving of, the right to offer such comments. We all offer comments here, obviously. Sometimes though...you assume too much. That's about the best way I can say it. You need to get over yourself occasionally. I do too, but this one is about you. Happy? |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Sep 12 23:41:27 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by ntrainride on Sun Sep 12 23:40:08 2010. LOL, you REALLY need to calm down, YOU read WAY too much into this. WAY too much, that wasn't there."Such Comments". LMAO. |
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Re: Dear Insensitive People.... |
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Posted by jimmymc25 on Sun Sep 12 23:57:03 2010, in response to Re: Dear Insensitive People...., posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Sep 12 23:23:57 2010. Simple question...Do we have a victory for Freedom?....OUR FREEDOM. I think not. Even that stupid term "Victory Mosque' is a spineless concession to the 9/11 flunkies. This kind of crap is what those assholes love...they don't have to bomb anything else.....they've got Americans in panic, soiling thier diapers & crying disrespect. Nobody seems to get that. Jimmymc25 |
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Re: Dear Insensitive People.... |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Sep 13 00:02:51 2010, in response to Re: Dear Insensitive People...., posted by jimmymc25 on Sun Sep 12 23:57:03 2010. And you seem to have zero understanding of what kind of regime is in Iran. |
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Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters.... |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Sep 13 00:04:53 2010, in response to Re: Dear Anti-Mosque and Islam haters...., posted by Easy on Sun Sep 12 22:16:36 2010. Depends on what you call "small". Here is a list of statistics. |
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Re: Dear Insensitive People.... |
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Posted by Train Dude on Mon Sep 13 00:05:00 2010, in response to Re: Dear Insensitive People...., posted by jimmymc25 on Sun Sep 12 23:57:03 2010. It's really a good thing that we have people like you who are in the minority but are here to explain to the majority why they are wrong. |
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Re: Dear Insensitive People.... |
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Posted by jimmymc25 on Mon Sep 13 00:06:40 2010, in response to Re: Dear Insensitive People...., posted by Olog-hai on Mon Sep 13 00:02:51 2010. So let's bow down & worship Iran than...okay.Jimmymc25 |
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Re: Dear Insensitive People.... |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 13 00:10:24 2010, in response to Re: Dear Insensitive People...., posted by jimmymc25 on Mon Sep 13 00:06:40 2010. Nah ... we take up a collection for Olog to go to a fine Florida flight school and let him put his stick where his mouth is ...
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Re: Dear Insensitive People.... |
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Posted by jimmymc25 on Mon Sep 13 00:12:58 2010, in response to Re: Dear Insensitive People...., posted by Train Dude on Mon Sep 13 00:05:00 2010. Well then continue to bow down in defeat.Live in fear...you own it! Jimmymc25 |
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Re: Dear Insensitive People.... |
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Posted by jimmymc25 on Mon Sep 13 00:13:58 2010, in response to Re: Dear Insensitive People...., posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 13 00:10:24 2010. Um...but he doesn't know where his mouth is.Jimmymc25 |
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Re: Dear Insensitive People.... |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Sep 13 00:18:50 2010, in response to Re: Dear Insensitive People...., posted by jimmymc25 on Mon Sep 13 00:06:40 2010. That's what you want, is it? |
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Re: Dear Insensitive People.... |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 13 00:19:42 2010, in response to Re: Dear Insensitive People...., posted by jimmymc25 on Mon Sep 13 00:13:58 2010. Heh. Sure he does ... it's in Germany. :) |
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Re: Dear Insensitive People.... |
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Posted by jimmymc25 on Mon Sep 13 00:22:58 2010, in response to Re: Dear Insensitive People...., posted by jimmymc25 on Mon Sep 13 00:06:40 2010. No..that's your paronia and that is giving you what you want...more paronia.....and you got it.I'm for freedom. Jimmymc25 |
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Re: Dear Insensitive People.... |
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Posted by jimmymc25 on Mon Sep 13 00:28:30 2010, in response to Re: Dear Insensitive People...., posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 13 00:19:42 2010. What's sad is some folks just can't see is that there's a time to pull back a bit and breathe and ask..."now what's going on here & now?"Nope right now it's gotta respond with hate...it all comes from FEAR. Jimmymc25 |
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Re: Dear Insensitive People.... |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 13 00:30:36 2010, in response to Re: Dear Insensitive People...., posted by jimmymc25 on Mon Sep 13 00:28:30 2010. And those who gain from whipping it up. Angry people seek new leaders. It's worked before. |
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