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Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background? |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 1 10:48:35 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by LuchAAA on Sun May 31 23:20:15 2009. Since you're losing the argument, turn to ridicule. Common tactic, but one I've learned to expect from your type.I'm sorry. I wanted to inject a bit of levity into the discussion to illustrate the failure of America's mass media to educate. Education takes the form of not only formal educational programs but also of using grammatically correct language during entertainment fare. Most Russians in my Queens neighborhood, or at Transit told me they hadn't studied much if any English in Russia, and talked about how hard it was to learn English...Again, not too many Russians from Uzbekistan, Georgia, or the Ukraine learned English before coming here. We obviously travel in different circles. I had a graduate engineer from Kiev working for me. Mastery of English was not one of his shortcomings. My Spanish is fluent, and I never even lived in Mexico...Many countries are like that [English lessons on the television]. Even Mexico I'm a bit confused. I'll accept your statement regarding your fluency in Spanish and never having lived in Mexico. Doesn't that preclude your expertise regarding how Mexican hotel personnel spend their time? BTW, those TV English lessons in China were on broadcast television. Not only hotel personnel watched them. The local populace would practice what they had learned on our group the next day. So you condone anti-semitism?...Are you saying that religious oppression is a "value"? No, I'm saying the propensity for learning foreign languages is uncorrelated with the presence or absence of religious freedom. Spanish media continues to grow rapidly, because the attitude of most Hispanics in America is that assimilation is a bad thing. I suspect Spanish media growth is somewhat correlated to increasing numbers of Spanish immigrants. This is why Spanish television and radio have grown, while the Asians and Russians can't even maintain a low-powered television station in most markets. The availability of foreign language packages on cable television has probably obscured trends that might be ascertained by studying only over the air broadcast media. There is certainly no lack of Asian or Russian printed media in Flushing. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 1 11:16:51 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 1 00:52:12 2009. The Italians who came here were farmers. But they learned English,Those immigrants did not learn English; their children did. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jun 1 11:28:09 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 1 11:16:51 2009. Where were the Italian/English multi lingual signs? Where was it for the Germans? Or every other group? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 1 11:28:48 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by ntrainride on Mon Jun 1 10:25:39 2009. Yes, but that doesn't apply to athletic achievement, which requires training AND natural ability. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 1 11:30:02 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by ntrainride on Mon Jun 1 10:25:39 2009. Also family guy is not from Borough Park, he's from Quahog. :-) |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 1 11:38:43 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jun 1 11:28:09 2009. What multilingual signs? Most foreign language signage is by private entities, and there was no shortage of that in ethnic enclaves 100 years ago. As for official signs, name some examples. Most of them are of the "PELIGRO alto voltaje" type and in that case it's less about placating people than it is about people not being killed. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jun 1 11:43:21 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 1 11:38:43 2009. No other language has/had that benefit. Not to mention all the City forms are in Spanish and English. And it's not just the city either. |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Jun 1 11:54:55 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 1 00:52:12 2009. The Italians who came here were farmers. But they learned EnglishMy great grandmother was an obstetrician, and she learned very little English. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 1 12:10:04 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jun 1 11:43:21 2009. Because with Spanish you get more bang for the buck. They can't put 20 languages on signs. |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Jun 1 12:28:38 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jun 1 11:28:09 2009. Where were the Italian/English multi lingual signs? Where was it for the Germans? Or every other group?I've seen lots of signs in Chinese and Korean in Flushing, Russian and Yiddish in Brooklyn, Cambodian in Providence, and Polish and Urdu in Chicago, so I'd say it's more of a 21st century thing than a Spanish thing. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jun 1 12:50:46 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Jun 1 11:54:55 2009. Did they give her bilingual documents, etc? |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Jun 1 13:13:58 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jun 1 12:50:46 2009. Did they give her bilingual documents, etc?No. As I said in another subthread, it's a 21st century thing, not a Spanish thing. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jun 1 13:16:20 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Jun 1 13:13:58 2009. No, it's a Spanish thing. There are still MANY immigrants from other countries too that have no such luxury. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jun 1 13:20:41 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jun 1 13:16:20 2009. And "21st Century thing". They did it starting in the 70's already. |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jun 1 17:36:41 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jun 1 07:38:54 2009. Consider yourself lucky, then. |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jun 1 17:37:59 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by SMAZ on Sun May 31 20:17:30 2009. Check the footnotes. If there aren't any, put up a {{fact}} tag. |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jun 1 17:38:07 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jun 1 17:36:41 2009. I'm not saying that Latinas can't be unfriendly, but by and large, they are emotional firecrackers who put a lot of zest into everything. |
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Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background? |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 1 18:38:22 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jun 1 11:28:09 2009. Where were the Italian/English multi lingual signs? Where was it for the Germans? Or every other group?There's a problem with the lack of multi-lingual signs in many stores where I live in Flushing. The problem is the lack of English. The anglophones are up in arms demanding multi-lingual (English) signs in the stores. The Puerto Ricans should be entitled to Spanish signs. They are American citizens, by birthright, from a part of the United States where official business is conducted in Spanish. Like all American citizens they have the right to travel and live freely throughout the rest of the US. Many have taken advantage of that right. The US chose not to establish English as its language nor did it set up a decent education system in English, when it ruled Puerto Rico as a colony. One may argue whether these were wise policies or even if the Spanish-American War was justified. However, the necessity to accommodate our fellow citizens is a consequence of these policies. |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 1 19:14:10 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jun 1 11:28:09 2009. No group is pandered to as much as Hispanics. It's the "in" thing to do for businesses and politicians.The same people who will justify signage in foreigh languages, are the same people who will tell you that Geno's Steaks in Philadelphia is racist for putting up the sign telling people to order in English. |
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Posted by Easy on Mon Jun 1 19:19:27 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jun 1 17:38:07 2009. Just because they or their ancestors spoke Spanish? That's all that they have in common. They aren't a race of people like blacks or Jews. |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 1 19:27:01 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 1 18:38:22 2009. Puerto Ricans are not the reason for Spanish-language signage in most stores. Heck, the main page for the Puerto Rican Day Parade is in English, with an espanol option. They can't even get a Spanish-language broadcast partner anymore. The parade has been televised on English-language television for years. Univision and Telemundo won't even waste their time televising the parade in Spanish. They're too busy scheming ways to gain market share with Mexicans, Ecuadorians, Peruvians, etc.......... |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 1 19:54:31 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 1 10:48:35 2009. Education takes the form of not only formal educational programs but also of using grammatically correct language during entertainment fare.Thanks for pointing out my mistakes. I appreciate it, and won't call you a racist, unlike other races in America who want their grammatical errors to be recognized as a legit version of English. We obviously travel in different circles. I guess. But we're both middle class guys from Queens, who have lived through the makeover of Queens over the last twenty years, and we each have our own point-of-view. The way I see it, the Russians in America assimilate fast, even though they faced more obstacles than any Hispanic group in America. They have a better attitude, and it shows in their abilitiy to learn English, and blend into America's middle class. I'm a bit confused. I'll accept your statement regarding your fluency in Spanish and never having lived in Mexico. Doesn't that preclude your expertise regarding how Mexican hotel personnel spend their time? BTW, those TV English lessons in China were on broadcast television. Not only hotel personnel watched them. The local populace would practice what they had learned on our group the next day. No. I didn't always speak Spanish. So they used to speak to me in English. Most hotel workers in Mexico speak English. Makes sense. I'd love to know what Russian newspapers you can find in Flushing. I lived on the Forest Hills/Rego Park border for about ten years, in the heart of Queens Bukharian and Georgian populations, and I've never seen Russian language newspapers for sale. I believe The Bukharian Times is printed in English, which is amazing. Yet, El Diario de Mexico and two other Spanish-language newspapers are sold all over Forest Hills, and other sections of Queens. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jun 1 20:28:29 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 1 12:10:04 2009. They shouldn't put any other language on the signs. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jun 1 20:29:42 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Jun 1 12:28:38 2009. That's mostly private business putting those signs on their businesses. It's a free country, business owners can put that on their buildings/stores if they want. It's not the same as the government doing it. |
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Posted by Easy on Mon Jun 1 20:35:43 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jun 1 20:28:29 2009. Why? The extra cost seems minimal, especially when compared to the benefit. |
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Posted by Easy on Mon Jun 1 20:37:32 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jun 1 20:29:42 2009. IINM Chino, CA (or maybe Rowland Heights) passed a law requiring that businesses have signs in English as well as Mandarin. They felt like they were being forced out of their community. Is that how you feel when you see a sign in Spanish? |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 1 20:41:09 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by Easy on Mon Jun 1 20:35:43 2009. What's the benefit? A subculture of people in America who don't learn English, yet cry/bitch/moan that America is a racist country when their possibilities are limited as a result?The only benefit is protection from lawsuits. |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 1 20:46:05 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by Easy on Mon Jun 1 20:37:32 2009. Part of me feels that it's good, because it helps establish Hispanic groups as a permanent subculture, unable to compete for better jobs. This resistance is only going to limit their opportunities in the long run, which is fine by me. I'd rather see Mexicans doing the work, instead of people from Somalia. |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 1 20:51:22 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jun 1 20:29:42 2009. Not if you're a white business owner. Remember Geno's in Philadelphia? |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 1 21:22:53 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by Easy on Mon Jun 1 19:19:27 2009. They are a culture. A hot-blooded, passionate culture. |
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Posted by Easy on Mon Jun 1 21:26:43 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 1 21:22:53 2009. If you say so. I know so many Mexicans that aren't like that at all. |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 1 21:28:42 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by Easy on Mon Jun 1 21:26:43 2009. Then you'd live in Santa Ana, East LA, or Pico Rivera. |
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Posted by Easy on Mon Jun 1 21:42:42 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 1 21:28:42 2009. I wouldn't but not because they are hot-blooded. |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 1 21:43:58 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by Easy on Mon Jun 1 21:42:42 2009. Because you know that for the most part, they are very different from you in appearance, and culturally. |
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Posted by Easy on Mon Jun 1 21:52:48 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 1 21:43:58 2009. I don't know about very different, but different enough. I prefer to live around people that have the same values as me. That doesn't mean any particular race or races, but why live around cultures/values different than my own if I don't have to? |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Jun 1 22:52:32 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jun 1 20:29:42 2009. That's mostly private business putting those signs on their businesses. It's a free country, business owners can put that on their buildings/stores if they want. It's not the same as the government doing it.I'm talking about warning signs and public notices. |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 1 22:59:56 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Jun 1 22:52:32 2009. Warning signs and public notices are a waste when printed in another language. Especially Spanish. It's just pandering. |
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Posted by ntrainride on Mon Jun 1 23:11:23 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 1 19:54:31 2009. Call it either intellectual laziness, cultural insensitivity or pathological insecurity. |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue Jun 2 01:38:02 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jun 1 12:50:46 2009. Did they give her bilingual documents, etc?My father and my uncle took their drivers license exam in Italian when they arrived here. |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jun 2 01:42:19 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by SMAZ on Tue Jun 2 01:38:02 2009. Sorry to hear that. |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue Jun 2 02:17:50 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jun 2 01:42:19 2009. Sorry to hear that.Nothing to be sorry about. They didn't speak English when they arrived but needed to drive to get to work to start making a living and paying taxes. They learned English quickly enough. My dad even took ESL classes. |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jun 2 03:01:42 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by SMAZ on Tue Jun 2 02:17:50 2009. I have relatives who never learned English. You don't want to know what I think of them. Thank God they're dead.These relatives are from my mother's side of the family. I used to be the altar boy for Italian mass on Sunday mornings. The girls were always hot. I grew up in an Italian neighborhood, and I've never heard of ESL classes for Italians. This includes private ESL, or public funded. Where did your family take classes? Churches in Queens have ESL for Mexicans, but I've never heard of Italian classes. |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue Jun 2 03:27:57 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jun 2 03:01:42 2009. Where did your family take classes?Actually I don't know. I need to ask my father. My mother never took the classes but she learned an accentless English from TV, neighbors and doing the "mom thing" (school, shopping, etc). That's the advantage of a diverse area like LIC/Astoria versus ethnic enclaves like Bensonhurst. My aunt who was a teenager when she came from Italy took ESL at LIC HS and then graduated with flying colors. She helped teach my parents and my brother. The nuns at St Pat's would slap the shit out of my brother if he uttered a word in Italian while in school. He never forgot that. He got an MBA and is a retired USAF colonel. My grandmother never learned it well and failed her citizenship test even though she was the most "American" of them all. She remembers when Italy was a third-world country and never took prosperity for granted. My parents came here because they liked America but were doing well in Italy anyway. |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jun 2 03:47:57 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by SMAZ on Tue Jun 2 03:27:57 2009. Get back to us on the ESL for Italians.You should teach Italian on 65th between Lex and 3rd. You'll probably meet a nice hot girl there. True, LIC/Astoria was diverse. Bensonhurst was not. Today's immigrants are pandered to. Complain that America is racist, and that there are not enough opportunities to learn English. Then, they go home and help Univision set new viewership levels each year. Unfuckingbelievable. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jun 2 08:55:32 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 1 19:54:31 2009. we're both middle class guys from Queens, who have lived through the makeover of Queens over the last twenty years, and we each have our own point-of-view. The way I see it, the Russians in America assimilate fast, even though they faced more obstacles than any Hispanic group in America. They have a better attitude, and it shows in their abilitiy to learn English, and blend into America's middle class.Ability to learn English is generational. I've patronized the same pharmacy for the last 15 years. It's owner and staff are Chinese. A couple of assisted living apartment houses were built nearby. Many elderly Russians moved in. The pharmacy hired a clerk who speaks Russian. She's needed. The Russian Medicare generation does not speak English; their children do. Immigration into the US was virtually nil between 1924 and 1965. This 40 year gap meant that those whose perspective dates from after 1965 have not witnessed the assimilation process of the earlier immigrations. I heard about it from my parents. I knew my grandparents were dysfunctional in English despite living 50 years in this country. If you are part of the post baby boomer generation, you probably grew up ignorant of this history. Perhaps the major difference in our circles is that I know the assimilation history the earlier immigration. I see very little difference between that history and what is presently unfolding. I'd love to know what Russian newspapers you can find in Flushing. I have not gone on a hunt for them. Here's a link to Russian language media in the world. You will find 4 Russian language newspapers published in NYC/Brooklyn, listed for the US. This does not include Novoe Russoe Slovo (New Russian Word - Hoboe...) which is as old as the hills. I've seen a few of these papers in the Russian food store that popped up like a dandelion to service the nearby residents. If you're looking to find some newspapers to polish up your Russian language skills, I'd suggest you try your local public library's reading room. I'd be willing to bet, sight unseen, that the branch on 63rd Drive has quite a collection. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jun 2 09:22:06 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 1 19:27:01 2009. Puerto Ricans are not the reason for Spanish-language signage in most stores.Store owners have the right to post signs in any language they chose. That's their prerogative,unless they are in Quebec. Commercial considerations usually dictate which languages are used. The major controversy regarding English/Spanish is official government signs and documents. That's the context where those raised in Puerto Rico have a grievance against only English. |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Jun 2 10:02:07 2009, in response to What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by Peter Rosa on Sat May 30 14:54:11 2009. it's important to determine whether she actually is a minority and whether she actually did face discrimination in her past.Why? My guess is that she never faced serious discrimination. My guess is also that she never achieved any benefits from affirmative action - that she would have gotten into exactly the same schools if her surnmame had been Smith. But so what? She's obviously more sympathetic to the problems of Hispanic-Americans than Justice Roberts, whether or not she ever suffered any discrimination herself. |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Jun 2 10:06:15 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jun 2 08:55:32 2009. I knew my grandparents were dysfunctional in English despite living 50 years in this country.My wife's great grandmother came here in 1898 and died in 1961 and never learned a word of English. (And, no LuchAAA, her native language was NOT Spanish; it was Sicilian dialect. I don't think she ever spoke proper Italian either.) |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jun 2 10:23:19 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by AlM on Tue Jun 2 10:02:07 2009. Her portrayal as being from the "projects" is somewhat inaccurate. Sure, she lived in public housing, but she left the South Bronx in the late 60's, in favor of the mostly white/mostly Jewish Co-op City, thus avoiding the worst years of the South Bronx. Yet you'd think she was living among the many when Howard Cosell said, "The Bronx is burning". She was miles away, almost in another world. This is common pattern among minorities in the world of politics. They all have to tell a personal story of struggle to gain credibility.In reality, she probably faced little discrimination her life. So it's unlikely that she'd understand the "problems" of being a Hispanic-American, because she spent years living in a white environment. She's a "wanksta". Totally absent from the Hispanic community for decades. |
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Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background? |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jun 2 10:33:19 2009, in response to Re: What's Sonia Sotomayor's racial background?, posted by AlM on Tue Jun 2 10:06:15 2009. Ok. Why are you calling me out? I've stated many times that some Italians were like that too. Some are even in my family, and I don't agree with it.Still doesn't justify the megatrend in America to make Spanish our second language. The difference is that these attitudes have infected younger generations, who also don't want to become fluent in English. |
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