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| Re: He was in my class (184007) | |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Fri Jan 12 16:28:11 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by BIE on Fri Jan 12 16:09:53 2007. Not if the officer in question didn't feel like issuing one. |
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| (184216) | |
Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jan 12 16:31:17 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by David of Broadway on Fri Jan 12 16:26:25 2007. "But he was at the very least partly at fault, since he was behind the wheel of the car. "Unsupported assertion. There is no evidence that he was, and your statement irepresents a non-sequiter. |
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| (184217) | |
Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Fri Jan 12 16:33:27 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jan 12 16:25:55 2007. Good thing it's impossible for an investigator to make a mistake. (Even when the investigator hears only one side of the story. The driver gave his side. Sean couldn't give his.)Doesn't it feel nice to be judge, jury, and executioner? |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by BMTLines on Fri Jan 12 16:50:07 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by David of Broadway on Fri Jan 12 16:26:25 2007. Wrong. A driver on a city street should always expect a pedestrian to step into the street and should always be prepared to take corrective action.I assume you drive 10mph and are prepared to stop on a dime. Most of us drive 30mph (the legal limit) traffic permitting - at that speed it is not possible to stop immediately. Even if you brake hard the momentum of the car alone will cause it to skid and still hit whatever is in front of it. |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Fri Jan 12 16:51:13 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by David of Broadway on Fri Jan 12 16:33:27 2007. It depends on who the "investigator" was too. One agency isn't as through as another. Some are good, some suck.And even for at-fault laws in regular driving covers a broad blanket at times. Passing on an onramp is legal in most states, and dangerious. Some state police agencies can determine speed of car by forensic factors. Pedestrian coming out between cars usually "at fault". I don't know how far into investigations they go, or what they'd hope to gain if they did. I'm afriad the outcome is what it is. I'm sorry. |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Fri Jan 12 17:00:47 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by BMTLines on Fri Jan 12 16:50:07 2007. Common sense...I'm going to assume this car was by itself or first in line. How often does a person cross the street without looking when several cars already passed him/her. Second, It's night. How do I know the person wasn't pushing 45-50? Especially if it's the first car, the first car isn't the slowest. Sean Weber, 23, was walking home from school about 8:20 p.m. when he was hit and hurled more than 100 feet along along Veterans Ave. in Bergen Beach. I've never been hit before, and I don't know what angle he was hit, but will you fly 100 feet from being hit at 35mph? Even unaware? This sounds really forceful. It's a Saturn too. Saturn what? I dunno. If it's an SUV, maybe...I don't know. A plastic saturn car going 30mph moving me 30 yards I'm not sure about. I could be wrong though. Did the person cross the street between two big SUV's so he wasn't seen either? I dunno. Obviously the driver didn't have a chance to honk possibly. You can swerve around objects and people too. That's a part of defensive driving. Swing around into something and not into a person. Person couldv'e been wearing all black. It's a vague story...but seeing too many wrecks, being in insurance for a time, you start to figure things out. And then you just want to live along a tram line. That's all I want instead of this crap. :( I used to eat at a table next to some lady everyday. And she said she used to like driving a lot too until she started working in insurance. Takes the fun out of it. |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Fri Jan 12 17:01:42 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jan 12 16:31:17 2007. No evidence that he was what? That he was partly at fault or that he wasn't behind the wheel of the car?Do you have evidence that proves that he completely wasn't at fault? Were you at the scene of the accident? |
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| (184225) | |
Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by BMTLines on Fri Jan 12 17:01:58 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by Future Motorman on Fri Jan 12 12:29:18 2007. Pedestrians have come to the notion that they have the right of way at all times, and they love to jaywalk. If I have a green light, and they are on the sidewalk, I start to move, they give me and the other driver the look of , yeah, I dare you to run me over, I am walking here, right now.And if you slow down or stop for them the other pedestrians will take advantage of it and follow, leaving you to miss an entire green light cycle, and causing the drivers behind you to start honking like mad because you are holding them up. I HATE driving into Manhattan because I feel like I am in a constant battle with taxicabs and pedestrians. |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Fri Jan 12 18:01:05 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jan 12 14:29:45 2007. I said I was sorry ,too. I will not enter into the rest of this thread, as to who was wrong, etc. What's done is done , and that's it, the young man died. |
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| (184246) | |
Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Jan 12 18:34:44 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by Future Motorman on Fri Jan 12 12:29:18 2007. Oh yeah jaywalkers are the worst especially on a heavily used street or a desolate road. |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Jan 12 18:40:03 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by Easy on Fri Jan 12 15:24:35 2007. Because there are truths to them. |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Jan 12 18:41:52 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jan 12 16:25:55 2007. Another unprovoked personal attack. You are also consistent. |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Jan 12 18:44:46 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 12 12:28:32 2007. The key words are "both are mutually to blame". Therefore, not one person is the sole reason for the accident.The person should've paid attention to the light and the driver should've paid more attention to the pedestrian. That's what Chris is trying to point out, he is not taking a side, He is pointing out how both were at fault and sadly the pedestrian was struck and killed. Had the pedestrian been paying attention he would've stopped at the curb and not proceeded any further. |
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| (184251) | |
Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by JohnL on Fri Jan 12 18:45:32 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by BMTLines on Fri Jan 12 17:01:58 2007. I HATE driving into Manhattan because I feel like I am in a constant battle with taxicabs and pedestrians.That’s because you are mostly in a battle with taxicabsand pedestrians, not to mention the other drivers who are amongst the most competitive in the nation**. **Not the world: I’m giving that award to the Athenians! |
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| (184274) | |
Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 12 22:17:11 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by BMTLines on Fri Jan 12 17:01:58 2007. I HATE driving into Manhattan because I feel like I am in a constant battle with taxicabs and pedestrians.Haha, I never had a problem with driving in Manhattan, I actually like it....however, you are correct. Actually, I always found that the battle of the taxis and other drivers is that if you "show you are week", they will take advantage of that. For example, if you need to get over, and no one is letting you in, you have to worm your way in, the aggressive drivers will have to let you in if you just start doing it. Show you are "weak", and they will never let you in..... |
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| (184275) | |
Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 12 22:19:48 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by David of Broadway on Fri Jan 12 15:56:03 2007. City streets are uncontrolled environments. Pedestrians are to be expected. Drivers have to watch out for them.Of course they do. Howver, it's not as easy as just saying, "You should have seen him darting out into traffic (not saying that's what happened here, this is just a general statement) when someone walks in front of your car. If you are going even 15 mph, it may be very hard to get out of the way, even if you see it happening in front of your eyes. That's an oversimplification to say that "drivers have to watch for pedestrians". Pedestrians also have to watch for cars. |
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| (184276) | |
Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 12 22:21:01 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by orange blossom special on Fri Jan 12 15:41:10 2007. I think that's a pretty harsh statement. I would beg to differ that most people would be pretty upset if they just hit and killed someone. |
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| (184277) | |
Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 12 22:28:36 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by David of Broadway on Fri Jan 12 16:26:25 2007. Wrong. A driver on a city street should always expect a pedestrian to step into the street and should always be prepared to take corrective actionOf course, and I am saying it's an oversimplification to say that every driver even if 100% alert to everything around them CAN stop in time. That is simply false. I don't think Sean had the power to disappear and reappear at will. He didn't, but it still is an oversimplification to say that the driver was perfectly able to see that materializing, even if 100% alert. I don't know if the driver was completely at fault or only partly at fault. But he was at the very least partly at fault, since he was behind the wheel of the car. I never said he wasn't at least partly at fault, but it's not simply because he was in a car. Any pedestrian can be standing perfectly still, and then just decide to start walking without realizing there is a car coming, especially when earing a headset where street noise is minimized. (again, not necessarily what happened here) |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 12 22:30:47 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by The Port of Authority on Fri Jan 12 17:01:42 2007. No, David assumes that any driver, simply being in the car is at least partly at fault, and while that may or may not be true, that statement is inherintly false. There are times that no matter how good a driver may be, or how alert, he STILL may not be able to stop if someone darts out in front of him. |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 12 22:32:12 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by BMTLines on Fri Jan 12 16:50:07 2007. Exactly, and even at 10 mph, it can STILL be hard to stop if someone darts out in front of the car. Momentum is out of the drivers control, even if going 10 mph, and it;'s amplified for every mile above that. |
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| (184280) | |
Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 12 22:35:52 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by orange blossom special on Fri Jan 12 17:00:47 2007. I've never been hit before, and I don't know what angle he was hit, but will you fly 100 feet from being hit at 35mph?Yes, 30 can do that. 30 is pretty fast, especially when tons and tons of metal/fiberglass is moving at 30 mph. A 180 lb human body doesn't have a chance against that. Yes, experts can and will figure it out by the evidence at the site. |
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| (184281) | |
Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 12 22:38:42 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by Easy on Fri Jan 12 15:24:35 2007. Huh? I made no assumptions. I blamed neither. I simply stated a few POSSIBLE causes. I did not say any of them were actual causes. I stated tuthfull senarios. They may or may not have happened here. |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 12 22:38:43 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by Easy on Fri Jan 12 15:24:35 2007. Huh? I made no assumptions. I blamed neither. I simply stated a few POSSIBLE causes. I did not say any of them were actual causes. I stated tuthfull senarios. They may or may not have happened here. |
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| (184283) | |
Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 12 22:41:13 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Jan 12 18:44:46 2007. The person should've paid attention to the light and the driver should've paid more attention to the pedestrian. That's what Chris is trying to point out, he is not taking a side, He is pointing out how both were at fault and sadly the pedestrian was struck and killed.Thank you. that is exactly what I was saying. I NEVER said the driver wasn't somewhat perhaps at fault. But I am also not going to stand here and agree with people that say that pedestrians are never at fault. That's absurd. Especially when wearing an MP3 player. That does not help the pedestrians case. As I said at the beginning, this is a terrible tragedy for both involved. I never cast blame on either until people started jumping down my troat. |
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| (184284) | |
Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 12 22:42:07 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Jan 12 18:34:44 2007. Yes, there's a reason jaywalking is illegal. (not that I know or don't know that happened in this case). |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Fri Jan 12 23:37:30 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 12 22:42:07 2007. It's not illegal, at least not within the five boroughs. |
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| (184314) | |
Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Jan 12 23:40:42 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 12 22:38:42 2007. You said: "so I am going to say it's at least partially the own kid's fault." I can see that you could easily be right, but we just don't have the information to say that for sure. |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Jan 12 23:41:50 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by The Port of Authority on Fri Jan 12 23:37:30 2007. It's illegal. It's just not enforced. |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 12 23:48:16 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by Easy on Fri Jan 12 23:40:42 2007. Well, yes, it will be at least PARTLY the kids fault, just like it's at least PARTLY the drivers fault. Neither will be 100% free and clear here, as people should ALWAYS look to see if a car is coming. |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Fri Jan 12 23:52:17 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by Easy on Fri Jan 12 23:41:50 2007. You're right -- it is technically illegal, but1) it isn't enforced, and 2) if enforced, the fine would only be $2. So jaywalk away! (Be careful and vigilant though.) |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by Easy on Sat Jan 13 00:47:07 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 12 23:48:16 2007. Maybe the cars lights were off...maybe he was hit intentionally...maybe he had the right of way, but his view of the car was obstructed...lots of possibilities. We don't know for sure. |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by Future Motorman on Sat Jan 13 02:41:36 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 12 22:17:11 2007. Exactly. |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by Future Motorman on Sat Jan 13 02:53:24 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by BMTLines on Fri Jan 12 17:01:58 2007. Why do you think I keep posting to some other TA workers on here, who work in the subway. I took that test O/C, and can't wait until they get to my list #. I like working for the MTA (the benefits, and retirement), but hate being in the DOB. Too much is put on your shoulders. Being responsible for a $500,000+, vehicle, making sure nobody falls in the bus, watching out for inattentive peds., being cut off every 12 seconds, hearing those safety announcements now, every second (thanks to the Bx10, and four fatalities in 2006), trying to stay on schedule (not going to happen, when working a line crossing the Alexander Hamilton Bridge), dealing with supervisors, ready to hang you, etc... It ain't easy.It's all five Boroughs, not just Manhattan. |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by Future Motorman on Sat Jan 13 03:08:38 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by Easy on Sat Jan 13 00:47:07 2007. One thing we do know for sure is he did not have the right of way. Why do I say that? Right of Way in NYS is not set in stone. You have the right of way, when the other person gives it to you. If they don't, what you have is an accident. I learned this in 2 defensive driving courses I took.Two cars at an intersection, with lights. One gets the green light, but the one with the red decides to blow thruogh the red light. The car with the green light sees this, and says to themselves, I have the right of way. BANG! Accident. Who is at fault. Both in NYS. That is why NYS has No Fault insurance. The driver of the car that had the green light, says to their insurance adjuster, I had the green light, then I see this a-hole take the red. The insurance adjuster will say you saw them, why did you not stop? At NYCTA, and any transit DOB, they will tell you all this, and tell you to scan intersections as you approach them. You do not know who the other driver is, or what they are going to do. If it seems unsafe, stop. Defensive driving should be a requirement. It will teach alot, and some will better understand the No Fault insurance scam. |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jan 13 03:34:37 2007, in response to He was in my class, posted by David of Broadway on Thu Jan 11 17:58:48 2007. Quite a tragedy. My condolences . . . |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jan 13 04:18:48 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by Easy on Sat Jan 13 00:47:07 2007. Isn't that what I just said? God why are people reading all kinds of stuff into a simple statement. How about, it's a horrible tragedy, and let's leave it at that. |
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Posted by BMTLines on Sat Jan 13 09:09:43 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by The Port of Authority on Fri Jan 12 23:52:17 2007. There are some light cycles that virtually encourage jaywalking. There are some lights in my neighborhood that take two minutes to cycle to the next green - two minutes feels like FOREVER! Pedestrians (myself included when on foot) try to judge how much time they have between oncoming cars and run across that street every day. When driving I hate waiting at that light so much that if I see the "Don't Walk" flashing as I approach I make the turn into the street before it and go around - catching the green on the other side and making a left back onto that street. |
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| (184351) | |
Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Sat Jan 13 10:59:25 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 12 22:21:01 2007. I would think so too, until you see or read about how most of them just don't give a shit.Actually, if you get run down, at least half of them will be angry at you for holding them up for the rest of their lives. Drivers are selfish assholes. |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Sat Jan 13 11:01:02 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 12 22:32:12 2007. Depends what you're driving :)I know a few cars where I can stop at negative 10feet! |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jan 13 11:32:19 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by orange blossom special on Sat Jan 13 10:59:25 2007. Drivers are selfish assholes.That's a rather odd, blanket assumption. |
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| (184367) | |
Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Jan 13 12:19:13 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by David of Broadway on Fri Jan 12 16:33:27 2007. "Sean couldn't give his."That's where you're wrong. Sean couldn't speak, but the professional reconstruction spoke volumes. It must be hard being you. Everyone in the world is a complete moron except for David Greenberger. |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Sat Jan 13 12:45:35 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by RonInBayside on Sat Jan 13 12:19:13 2007. *Sean couldn't speak, but the professional reconstruction*Did they do that? Out of 50 states New York has to be the one state with different forms than the national standard, and I don't know if you have the short or long forms, but not every agency has the resources, time or know how. Sometimes if you wanted an expert and thourgh investigation or accident report filled out, you want the state police and not the county. other times it's the opposite. I don't know what your rules are, and how much effort they take. If they figured the guy was going 45 instead of 30, would it have made a difference, or would they not bother? It's dark, someones in the street, a saturn hit, case closed. Did they warrent forensics to find anymore out? Probably not, the outcome is what it is. Don't black and white it and say every officer, trooper, deputy has the training, and every agency and every collision gets the full expert treatment. Sometimes these adjustors or collision examiners at the dealer can figure the whole thing out just by looking better. Everyone doesn't get the same expert investigation no matter the crime/incident and locale. If I'm hit in Nebraska or shot, i"m not getting the same forensics as if I'm in Maryland. |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Tue Jan 16 21:33:57 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jan 12 16:31:17 2007. There's no evidence that he was behind the wheel of the car? Where was he steering from, then, the passenger seat? |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Tue Jan 16 21:34:41 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by RonInBayside on Sat Jan 13 12:19:13 2007. Isn't it nice that you know everything? |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Tue Jan 16 21:42:00 2007, in response to He was in my class, posted by David of Broadway on Thu Jan 11 17:58:48 2007. This is where the incident occurred.Note the all-way stop. Google Map Despite the stop sign, the driver was going fast enough that, following a "screech of brakes" (according to Dolgonos), he still managed to propel Sean more than 100 feet. |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Tue Jan 16 22:19:24 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by David of Broadway on Tue Jan 16 21:42:00 2007. The photo is worth a thousand words.Was he crossing at the crosswalk? Your right, a Saturn at a four way...wait three way I guess, stop shouldn't be screeching for the neighborhood to hear. I'm still unsure if you should be thrown a third of a football field too, but that's something that would need to be researched for a definate answer/example. Looks like a nice neighborhood too. Actually, where I type at this computer right now, I hear tires squel often enough from a few blocks away, but not at slow intersections like that. We're talking about 4 lane roads with traffic signals and no onstreet parking. |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Tue Jan 16 22:23:01 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jan 13 11:32:19 2007. If you'd see them it's no assumption.I'm still waiting for the day that some old assface doesn't ram a store, or mow down a group of people on bikes to have remorse. Jumping off the bridge? Hurry up so rush hour can continue. Actually...this is a rather odd conversation. I never thought I'd see the day where I'd see someone argue that drivers generally are courteous and caring, or give a crap about you. All the hit and runs in this nation should be enough if you're not a frequent driver. I don't think they found the guy who got someones SUV to flip over since he wasn't going fast enough. Dead on impact. |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by Easy on Tue Jan 16 22:38:11 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by orange blossom special on Tue Jan 16 22:19:24 2007. It also looks like a relatively low density area that might have more cars on the street than people. Sometimes at night drivers are mainly looking to see if other cars are coming. Pedestrians are an afterthought. |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Tue Jan 16 22:38:52 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by orange blossom special on Tue Jan 16 22:19:24 2007. I have no idea where he was crossing (and neither does anyone else posting to this thread).If the article is correct, though, it was either at or close to a stop sign. |
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Re: He was in my class |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Tue Jan 16 22:50:30 2007, in response to Re: He was in my class, posted by Easy on Tue Jan 16 22:38:11 2007. That's a good point (although it by no means excuses the driver).But bear in mind that this happens to be the terminus of the B41, and the B3 stops one very short block over to the left. So, despite the relatively low density, this particular intersection probably sees relatively high pedestrian volumes. (Assuming Sean was coming straight from school, he probably took the B49 to Avenue U for the B3, in which case he would have been coming from the left in the photo. I don't know where exactly he lived, but presumably it was a few blocks to the north, or else he wouldn't have been passing through the intersection in question.) |
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