|
|
| Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam (1290607) | |
 |
|
| Home > OTChat | |
[ Post a New Response | Return to the Index ]
|
|
Page 1 of 9 |
|
|
| (1290607) | |
Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by Dave on Mon May 25 22:06:59 2015 
|
|
|
| (1290615) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Tue May 26 02:33:28 2015, in response to Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by Dave on Mon May 25 22:06:59 2015. My heart goes out to your buddy but the reason "it was popular not to" was because that war was a mistake and a fuckup. |
|
|
| (1290616) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by Fred G on Tue May 26 03:11:00 2015, in response to Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by Dave on Mon May 25 22:06:59 2015. How come you weren't in Vietnam with him?Your pal, Fred |
|
|
| (1290656) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 06:29:10 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SMAZ on Tue May 26 02:33:28 2015. The biggest reason boys of my generation didn't want to go was because they didn't want to get their asses shot off.Now don't get me wrong. I think not wanting to get your ass shot off was a fine reason not to want to go, but the fact that the war was "a mistake and a fuckup" was quite secondary. And the people who didn't go blame the ones who did go. To this day, the Vietnam Vet bears the scorn of those who managed to escape. Trust me, I know this first hand. |
|
|
| (1290659) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 06:36:00 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by Fred G on Tue May 26 03:11:00 2015. Tell you a secret, Fred. Not going was the default in that era. When I went to my wife's 20th high school reunion (1968 grad -- height of the war) there was exactly ONE person who had been in the service AT ALL -- he was in Navy in the same era). He was also the husband of one of the grads.My wife had always told me that a member of her class had been killed in Vietnam. She learned at the reunion that he DID die while in the service, but it was in a civilian auto accident stateside. |
|
|
| (1290660) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by 3-9 on Tue May 26 06:37:52 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 06:29:10 2015. Really? That's extremely harsh, to scorn somebody who went there, even if it was a fuckup. What's the current reason for the scorn? |
|
|
| (1290661) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 06:50:51 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by 3-9 on Tue May 26 06:37:52 2015. The scorn has diminished (it's been a half-century, after all) and I almost never run into "avoider vets" I don't already know any more.I don't know if there are any studies of the phenomenon and I think there are psychological reasons, as well. Remember that during the Vietnam the default meaning of the phrase "what did you do during the war, daddy?" was still "why didn't you serve?" So I think there was some self-justification going on. I've been called a warmonger, a baby killer (by association), a fool, various political judgments, and similar sentiments. One thing that's given me pause is that, when visiting couples of my generation, the men would tend to try to diminish me for serving, but THEIR women would defend me. What do we make of that? |
|
|
| (1290662) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by Dave on Tue May 26 06:53:24 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by Fred G on Tue May 26 03:11:00 2015. He was two years older than me. In 1973, the year I turned 18, the draft ended when we went to an all-volunteer military. I registered on my birthday with the SSS and my status after the lottery was 1H(olding). |
|
|
| (1290667) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Tue May 26 07:16:38 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 06:29:10 2015. The biggest reason boys of my generation didn't want to go was because they didn't want to get their asses shot off.Because the generations of WW1, WW2 and Korea weren't gonna get their asses shot off? The reason people avoided the draft in the 'Nam Era was because it wasn't a war worth risking one's life and limb for. Unlike those earlier wars, they saw that the privileged and the middle class were doing everything in their power to avoid the draft. And for good reason. |
|
|
| (1290670) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by AlM on Tue May 26 07:30:57 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 06:50:51 2015. People who scorned Viet Nam veterans are people who couldn't think clearly.Yes, some soliders in Viet Nam behaved abominably. And some people scorned all soldiers for the behavior of a few, which is outrageous. This actually sounds familiar right now. |
|
|
| (1290675) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Tue May 26 07:55:08 2015, in response to Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by Dave on Mon May 25 22:06:59 2015. What To Do If You Don't Want To Be DraftedThese are your options if you don't want to be drafted: Don't register. Don't tell Selective Service your new address when you move. Get lucky in the draft lottery. Don't show up for induction. Show up and flunk the physical. Show up and refuse induction. Convince the draft board that you're a conscientious objector, and do alternative service. Convince the draft board that you qualify for some other deferment (most people don't). Leave the country, or hide, for the rest of your life. Organize now against the draft The surest way not to be drafted is to prevent the draft entirely. This leaflet explains how you can help protect yourself from the draft by joining in the resistance to the draft and wars. Slave Labor Is Illegal. Resist Draft Registration. Will There Be A Draft? With the U.S. at war in Iraq and Afghanistan, recruiters won't be able to meet their quotas forever. With American soldiers dying every day in foreign wars and occupations, people don't want to enlist no matter how desperate they are for a job. Even if the fighting stops soon, U.S. troops will probably stay in Afghanistan, Iraq, and the Gulf for years. If Army recruits have to spend a year sitting in the desert in a hostile country, who's going to volunteer next year ... or the year after? Members of Congress are already talking about bringing back the draft -- but they're afraid of draft resistance. Who Will Be Drafted? The first people to get drafted will probably be doctors, nurses, and other health care workers (both men and women). The military was short of health care workers even before the current wars began, and as the bodies pile up Congress may authorize a "Doctor Draft" of medical professionals. Selective Service has contingency plans for a Health Care Personnel Delivery System to draft men and women ages 20 through 44 who are doctors, nurses, technicians, therapists, or other medical professionals. (One way for such people not to be drafted -- unless they are also young men eligible for the general draft -- is to give up their medical or professional licenses. But they'll have to do it before they are drafted. Unless you're already thinking about a career change, that's not much of a choice.) For more on the health workers draft, see www.MedicalDraft.info. If there is a draft for cannon fodder, men who registered for the draft (if you didn't register, you won't be drafted) and who turn 20 this year would be called up first. In 2012, men born in 1992 would be drafted first. It would be up to Congress, when it decides to reinstate authority for inductions, to decide whether or not to include women. If you get drafted, you'll get a letter giving you ten days to report for a pre-induction medical exam. If you show up, pass the physical, and submit to induction, they'll put you on a bus to basic training the same day. What Will Happen To Me? We can't give you any guarantees. There is a lot you can do to keep from being drafted, but luck plays a big role. The government can always violate its own policies or invent new ones. You have to weigh the uncertain legal risks of resisting the draft, against the very clear hazards of submitting to the draft -- the choices aren't easy. If the Vietnam War draft is a guide, the odds favor people who resist. Most of the people who resisted illegally -- especially those who never registered -- were never caught. They weren't drafted, they didn't go to prison, and they were never even charged in court. Even of the 210,000 men who were formally accused of violating the draft laws, only 4,000 went to prison. Another 5,000 got probation, and 41,000 avoided prosecution by submitting to induction. The rest -- more than 75% -- were either never caught, never went to trial, won in court, or flunked their induction physicals! What If I Didn't Register? You're not alone. Over a million men have refused to register since 1980, and millions more have violated the draft laws in other ways. Only 20 nonregistrants were prosecuted, none since 1986! Between 5-10% of the 19 and 20-year-olds who would be called first have never registered, according to government data. Most of them will never be caught, even if there's a draft. If you decide to resist registration or induction, you'll probably get warning letters from Selective Service. These letters are usually junk mail, and you are unlikely to be prosecuted for ignoring them. In 2004, for example, the SS forwarded 162,000 names and addresses of suspected nonregistrants to the Justice Department. None of them were investigated or prosecuted. It's been like that every year since 1986. The dangerous letters are Certified or Registered letters (letters you have to sign for). Don't sign for any letter from Selective Service or the Justice Department. Your signature is evidence that you know you are supposed to register or appear for induction. Refuse to accept the letter, and see a draft counselor or lawyer immediately. Even if you are caught, there's a good chance you won't be prosecuted. The courts are already overwhelmed by the war on drugs; the government could only afford to prosecute a few token or outspoken draft resisters. Most people who are caught will be able to avoid prosecution by registering and submitting to the draft. Even the vocal public nonregistrants prosecuted in the early 1980s were allowed to register without penalty up until the day they went on trial. Some will choose to go to trial, and a few may not get that "last chance" to register. A criminal record is no laughing matter, but many draft resisters imprisoned during the Vietnam War, as well as some of the 20 nonregistrants prosecuted in the early 1980s, now hold professional jobs in business, in academia, and with non-governmental organizations. Most are proud of what they did and would do it again. Besides, is life in a minimum-security prison any worse than life in the Army? Some of us who have been there think not. But What If I Already Registered? If Selective Service doesn't know where you live, they might never find you. They admit their computers have the wrong addresses for about 10% of the men who registered, and the real figure is probably a lot higher -- 50% or more. So, again, you're not alone. If you don't tell Selective Service where you live, or if you ignore an induction notice, the same legal risks we talked about for nonregistrants would apply. In order to prosecute you, they would have to prove that you actually knew you were breaking the law. That will be very difficult without proof that you got their notices. So if they finally found you, you could probably avoid prosecution by submitting to the draft at that point. You should think about what you want your parents (or whoever lives at the address you gave when you registered) to do if the government comes looking for you. If you want to resist the draft and your parents support you, they can help by sending back, unopened, any mail for you from Selective Service. You can help yourself by doing the same thing. It's a crime to lie to Selective Service or the FBI, but you have the right to remain silent. When they say, "Anything you say will be used against you," they mean it. Your family doesn't have to accept mail for you, or tell the Feds where you live or anything else about you. What If I Refuse To Go? If you ignore your induction notice, and they find you, you'll almost certainly be given another chance to cooperate. Selective Services records are so inaccurate that tens of thousands of people will never receive their induction notices. Selective Service will probably assume you're one of them. If you get a draft notice, show up, and refuse induction, you'll probably be prosecuted. However, some people will slip through the cracks in the system, and some will win in court. If you show up and take the physical, there's a good chance that you'll flunk. (If you have a medical problem that would make it hard for you to be a soldier, you should see a draft counselor and a doctor now and get documentation of your condition.) But if you pass, you'll really be stuck. Those who get that far and then refuse induction will be much easier to find and convict than those who don't show up at all. If you pass the physical and then don't want to go, tell the soldiers who are ordering you around that you are refusing to be inducted. Remember: once you submit to induction, you'll be under military law, which is much harsher than civilian law. Don't take that step. Can I Go To Canada? Maybe, but you can't count on it. So far, Canada has refused to grant sanctuary to U.S. military resisters. Like other countries, Canada has its own unemployment and economic problems, and doesn't welcome unskilled young Americans. If your asylum claim is denied, and you don't meet the qualifications for Canadian immigration, you'd be deported back to the U.S. Health care workers might be more welcome, though licensing might present a problem. workers might be more welcome, though licensing might present a problem. If you have or can get citizenship in another country, if you're familiar with the language and culture, if you think you'd like to live there for the rest of your life, and if you have resources to get there and establish yourself, then emigration might make sense. If you leave the U.S. after you get an induction notice, you risk prosecution if you ever come back. What About Deferments? To get a deferment you must register, notify Selective Service whenever you move, and then apply for a deferment within a few days of receiving your induction notice. By applying for a deferment, you admit you received the induction notice, which will make it harder to wean in court if you later decide to refuse induction. If you're opposed to all war you might qualify as a conscientious objector, although you'd still have to do alternative service. There are several other deferments, but very few people will qualify for them. (Students are not exempt from the draft or likely to be deferred.) If you plan to try for a deferment, you should talk to a draft counselor now. Once draft notices go out, there won't be enough time or enough draft counselors. Why Break The Law? People resist the draft for many reasons. If you're healthy and can't qualify as a conscientious objector, breaking the law is probably the only way you can avoid being drafted. The most useful thing you can do today to keep from being drafted is to organize against the draft! Members of Congress are worried about the domestic unrest a draft will provoke -- and if the price looks too high, they won't dare try to draft you or anybody else. If enough of us resist now, no one will be drafted. www.resisters.info [This page and more, including printable versions of this and related leaflets in PDF format, are at http://www.resisters.info. This Web site is published by Edward Hasbrouck, individually and not on behalf of any organization including any of the organizations linked to. I have drawn on contributions over many years by many other people, and I do not claim copyright in this Web site, but I take full personal responsibility for it.] |
|
|
| (1290677) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by Dave on Tue May 26 08:10:01 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Tue May 26 07:55:08 2015. We know. You're a draft dodger. |
|
|
| (1290680) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 08:58:46 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SMAZ on Tue May 26 07:16:38 2015. People had a sense of moral obligation in WW1 and WW2 that they didn't have during 'Nam. In 'Nam also there were many groups encouraging and supporting people in avoiding the military. Didn't happen in the earlier wars.And so few people were needed compared to other wars and the pool of draftees was so large that they had liberal exemptions for getting out, like marriage and college. Yes, you got an exemption for simply being married; didn't even need kids. And the canard that the war was fought by the poor and the black is a lie. |
|
|
| (1290681) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 09:06:30 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by Dave on Tue May 26 08:10:01 2015. For all the people I know or know of who avoided the draft exactly ONE got out in a traditionally honorable way: i.e., Conscientious Objector. And though I believe he really was a CO he didn't write the paper that the Draft Board accepted; his bright girlfriend did.The others got out through marriage, high draft numbers, 4F, managing to time their school work to be exempt until the draft ended; one even went into teaching after his bachelor's, then quite when he turned 26. Not a single one actually resisted; i.e., stood up and said "no." |
|
|
| (1290682) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by AlM on Tue May 26 09:08:11 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 08:58:46 2015. And the canard that the war was fought by the poor and the black is a lie.Obviously not exclusively. But certainly disproportionately. A 4-year deferment for college obviously provided a useful delay for many millions of middle class kids who didn't want to serve. |
|
|
| (1290683) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 09:14:40 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by AlM on Tue May 26 09:08:11 2015. In 1968 we got a huge fill of young men whose college deferments had ended and they didn't have a backup way of getting out. Remember: You typically got out of college at 22 or 23. You were liable until you were 26 (technically, 35). Some draft boards went out of their way to "look up" these people when their deferments ended. |
|
|
| (1290684) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 09:16:29 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Tue May 26 07:55:08 2015. Thank you for making one of my points, Salaam, though I don't think you intended to. |
|
|
| (1290685) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Tue May 26 09:17:40 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 08:58:46 2015. . In 'Nam also there were many groups encouraging and supporting people in avoiding the military. Didn't happen in the earlier wars.The reason WW1 and 2 had popular support wasn't because the people at the time had a greater general sense of moral obligation. It was because those wars themselves were morally justified. Draft resistance worked during 'Nam because those opposing that war were right. A lot of the impulse behind the resistance movement came from combat vets themselves. And the canard that the war was fought by the poor and the black is a lie. So is the canard that Vietnam vets are mentally damaged. Studies have shown that they are better adjusted than those who didn't serve. So is the canard that they got spat upon at airports. |
|
|
| (1290686) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Tue May 26 09:30:31 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 09:06:30 2015. Mass dodging through legal means IS resisting.The same phenomenon happened between 2004-2009 in the all-volunteer military when there was a recruitment and retention shortage and the Army had to raise the enlistment age to 42 and issue waivers for people with criminal records and mental health issues and give out huge retention bonuses. Cutoff scores for promotions became super-low. You had incompetent people going from E-3 to E-7 in a matter of a few years. On the bright side it brought us the post 9-11 GI Bill and the end of DADT. Just like the unpopularity of military service in the 70's brought an expedited integration of women. |
|
|
| (1290687) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 09:33:12 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SMAZ on Tue May 26 09:17:40 2015. Yes, there was valid moral objection to Vietnam but the basic "if I can get out I will" sentiment was king. You didn't have much chance to get out of WWI or WWII. Do you really think everyone in those wars really wanted to go? Those who refused faced real legal sanction, disapproval by their peers and communities, and disgrace.Society changed more than the justifications for war. You may look at WWI and WWII as morally justified, and to some the latter war was, or at least unavoidable once the Japanese attached Pearl Harbor. But they also Europe wanting America to bail them out of the messes they got themselves in. So is the canard that Vietnam vets are mentally damaged. Studies have shown that they are better adjusted than those who didn't serve. I'm interested in that. What studies? So is the canard that they got spat upon at airports. But active duty soldiers were often harassed or disrespected in other ways, especially in places like New York City. It is one reason why I, among many others, didn't wear my uniform when traveling if I didn't have to. In balance, the U.S. South was the only place where I saw actual common respect, from whites and blacks. So is the canard that they got spat upon at airports. |
|
|
| (1290690) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 09:43:19 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SMAZ on Tue May 26 09:30:31 2015. Mass dodging through legal means IS resisting.In the common meaning of the word "resisting" I suppose you're right. But resisting by stealth is not the same as actively resisting. It more like "avoidance," trying to stay off the radar, which carries no moral weight. |
|
|
| (1290691) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by AlM on Tue May 26 09:47:25 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 09:14:40 2015. Sure, lots of college graduates got drafted. But lots avoided the draf by being in college until the demand dropped off. Remember, I only said disproportionate, not exclusive. |
|
|
| (1290692) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Tue May 26 09:51:19 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 09:33:12 2015. I'm interested in that. What studies?I read it somewhere a while ago. Not on the Internet but in some journal. It destroyed the stereotype of the typical Vietnam Vet being some Travis Bickle-like character. I had always suspected this but that study confirmed it. I don't remember what journal it was or who conducted the study. Society changed more than the justifications for war. Only one generation had gone by in the less than 20 years from the end of WW2 to the beginning of the Vietnam War. Societal changes alone don't explain the different attitudes to those wars. The existential threat from the attack on Pearl Harbor and Nazi aggression as opposed to the bullshit casus belli of the Gulf of Tonkin attack and the lack of existence of ANY threat to the US way of life by a remote civil war in Vietnam is what explains it. |
|
|
| (1290693) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 09:57:31 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by AlM on Tue May 26 09:47:25 2015. Perhaps, but not as disproportionate as often assumed.The pungent phrase in Hair "The Vietnam War was black men killing yellow men to save the land the white man took from the red man*" was more accurately "Young American men fighting yellow men to save French interests** and the WWII generation's ego*** from destruction." * Excellent propaganda that, but wrong. ** Notably, Michelin rubber and the Catholic elite. *** The "Generation Gap" was a very real thing. |
|
|
| (1290695) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 10:05:11 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SMAZ on Tue May 26 09:51:19 2015. Well, Gulf of Tonkin was an outright lie, annunciated by the man who now gets pretty good marks from much of the left because of the Civil Rights Bill of 1964.Now I hear "Nixon's War" while we said "Hey, Hey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?" |
|
|
| (1290696) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Tue May 26 10:12:50 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 10:05:11 2015. Now I hear "Nixon's War"The expansion of that war into Cambodia was Nixon's War. |
|
|
| (1290697) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 10:16:14 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SMAZ on Tue May 26 10:12:50 2015. The whole thing is called "Nixon's War" as though LBJ didn't exist. |
|
|
| (1290704) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Tue May 26 11:07:36 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 10:16:14 2015. What's your overall assessment of President Nixon's Administration?Where do you rank him? |
|
|
| (1290712) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 12:02:17 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SMAZ on Tue May 26 11:07:36 2015. That's a long question. As short an assessment as I could make right now would have to include that he deserved to be removed from office but, with the miracle of hindsight, actually getting him out had bad consequences for the nation, being followed by the barely competent Gerald Ford and the barely elected Jimmy Carter, not to mention setting a precedent that a sitting elected president (by a landslide) could be forced out of office. We might well have done better with a disgraced Nixon finishing his term, to have better candidates (Dem and GOP) face off in 1976.He did good things during his term, including finally ending the Vietnam Conflict, ending the draft, and (oddly) some environmental things. Of course he will not be remembered by most for anything good. I imagine you will ridicule ending the Vietnam War but he started the process of winding it down soon after taking office and the Vietnam he left was at least stable, which Obama's "endings" certainly are not. |
|
|
| (1290715) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Tue May 26 12:16:44 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 12:02:17 2015. I imagine you will ridicule ending the Vietnam WarNot at all. I give him great credit for that. Milhouse is the second-best President in my lifetime (I was born in the final hours of the Johnson Administration so I'm not gonna really count LBJ as "in my lifetime"). Vietnam he left was at least stable Please stop. |
|
|
| (1290716) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by AlM on Tue May 26 12:23:27 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 12:02:17 2015. I imagine you will ridicule ending the Vietnam War but he started the process of winding it down soon after taking office and the Vietnam he left was at least stable, which Obama's "endings" certainly are not.Nixon's winding down included bombing Cambodia and thus devastating a country that had largely remained at peace. South Vietnam remained an independent country for about 2 years after US withdrawal. US troops have been out of Iraq for 3 years and it could be a far better place than it is, but it is far from being on the verge of breaking up. |
|
|
| (1290717) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 26 12:25:49 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 12:02:17 2015. being followed by the barely competent Gerald Ford and the barely elected Jimmy Carter, not to mention setting a precedent that a sitting elected president (by a landslide) could be forced out of office. We might well have done better with a disgraced Nixon finishing his term, to have better candidates (Dem and GOP) face off in 1976.This is only because of the precedent that a sitting president, eligible for reëlection and seeking such, should always receive his party’s nomination. If Ford didn’t have the nomination locked up, then perhaps the Republicans would have nominated someone better and he’d have been elected instead. Not that until Teddy Roosevelt, presidents who succeeded to the office not only were never reëlected, but never won their party’s nomination. Also, I’m not certain that Carter looked so bad in 1976. A disgraced president finishing out his term might still have benefited the Democrats. Don’t you think that some of Obama’s victory in 2008 could be attributed to the unpopularity of Bush? |
|
|
| (1290718) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 12:27:46 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SMAZ on Tue May 26 12:16:44 2015. By "at least stable" I mean after the Communist victory. We didn't have the current situation of tribal factions rampaging around in such a way as to put the U.S. back in the conflict. The People's Republic was a stable government.You don't have an opinion on Johnson? |
|
|
| (1290720) | |
Hey SMAZ!!! (Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam) |
|
|
Posted by cortelyounext on Tue May 26 12:35:37 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SMAZ on Tue May 26 12:16:44 2015. Thanks for posting that clip. Small world we live in - I actually saw the group Sai Gon Quot Khoi perform on the Oklahoma State campus over in Stillwater back a few years ago. One of their tracks titled What's Up with the Long Face? from the groundbreaking compilation "Requiem for the Enraged" was awesome. They were backed by Dave Grohl of the Foo Fighters and formerly Nirvana as well as the OK State Marching Band - The Pride of the Plains. Thanks again, SMAZ, and I expect you to go far in all you choose to do such as defeating the slrt in war threads and other stuff like that.Here |
|
|
| (1290724) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 12:44:24 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by AlM on Tue May 26 12:23:27 2015. South Vietnam was a house of cards ripe to fall. A comparison to Iraq is odd. Vietnam was unified under a stable government not everyone agreed with. Iraq is in a civil war that followed by getting out without consideration of what would happen next.Vietnam actually paid a price for not following the maxim: "You LOSE wars to the U.S. and then you get the goodies." It endured the poverty for decades that Japan and Germany were helped out of. |
|
|
| (1290726) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by AlM on Tue May 26 12:46:01 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 26 12:25:49 2015. Also, I’m not certain that Carter looked so bad in 1976.He looked excellent. A moderate Democrat (not McGovern), honest (proven to be true in retrospect - no scandals), not linked to the perceived corruption and dishonesty of LBJ (not Humphrey), smart (a nuclear engineer - OK, not Ford). He would very likely have beaten Ronald Reagan or George Bush too, and certainly John Connally. |
|
|
| (1290728) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by AlM on Tue May 26 12:46:41 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 12:44:24 2015. A comparison to Iraq is odd.Then why did you make it? |
|
|
| (1290735) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 12:53:28 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 26 12:25:49 2015. I remember Carter in 1976. He received 50.1% - 48% of the popular vote against a (let's face it) nobody. And he looked BAD. I was still firmly a liberal Democrat then and didn't vote for Carter (or Ford). I only hoped who wouldn't be TOO bad.Yes, a disgraced Nixon still in office might have benefited the Democrats, but I was thinking of the country, not the GOP or Dems. I believe that the parties might not have put up two such turds if they had to worry more about who the other party would run. |
|
|
| (1290736) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 12:54:35 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by AlM on Tue May 26 12:46:41 2015. Because you did. Reread your last paragraph. |
|
|
| (1290740) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 12:56:47 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by AlM on Tue May 26 12:46:01 2015. [Carter] would very likely have beaten Ronald ReaganROLFMAO!!!!! You really aren't thinking about what you write are you? |
|
|
| (1290743) | |
Re: Hey SMAZ!!! (Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam) |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Tue May 26 12:59:49 2015, in response to Hey SMAZ!!! (Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam), posted by cortelyounext on Tue May 26 12:35:37 2015. What's Up with the Long Face? |
|
|
| (1290754) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Tue May 26 13:11:17 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 12:44:24 2015. Iraq is in a civil war that followed by getting out without consideration of what would happen next.We went INTO Iraq without consideration of what would happen next and after we left. Our triggering a civil war and a breakup of that country was inevitable. Leaving troops there would have been delaying that inevitable while throwing more American lives away for nothing. |
|
|
| (1290756) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Tue May 26 13:16:09 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 12:53:28 2015. After the dishonesty and traumas of the previous decade (in both parties), both parties put two moderate, honest and decent men.Anything else and it would have resulted in a landslide for one party or the other. |
|
|
| (1290780) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 14:08:05 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SMAZ on Tue May 26 13:11:17 2015. How do you feel about Afghanistan? |
|
|
| (1290785) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 26 14:11:59 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 12:56:47 2015. Why is it so hilarious that Carter would have beaten Reagan in 1976 when he lost to him in 1980? |
|
|
| (1290790) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 14:18:04 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SMAZ on Tue May 26 13:16:09 2015. Let's stipulate that Ford and Carter were "moderate, honest and decent men."They each in their terms demonstrated that "moderate, honest and decent" is not enough. Just as Wagner ended the rampant corruption of his recent predecessors and finally defeated Tammany, then demonstrated that "moderate, honest and decent" did not prevent the City from going into severe decline. As to "a landslide for one party or the other," why is this inherently bad? |
|
|
| (1290792) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by 3-9 on Tue May 26 14:18:55 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 06:50:51 2015. Good question. Ideals? Shame? Guilt? |
|
|
| (1290794) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 14:22:26 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 26 14:11:59 2015. When Reagan was put up in 1980 it was widely predicted that he was a joke and his candidacy was a gift to Carter. Didn't turn out that way.Other than platitudes, what evidence is there that Carter would have done at least as well (or badly, in fact) against Reagan when he could barely beat Ford? |
|
|
| (1290801) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by AlM on Tue May 26 14:39:45 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by SLRT on Tue May 26 14:22:26 2015. You are postulating a disgraced Nixon serving through to 1/20/1977. McGovern would probably have beaten Reagan in November 1976 under those circumstances. |
|
|
| (1290808) | |
Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam |
|
|
Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Tue May 26 14:55:41 2015, in response to Re: Remembering a buddy from high school who died in Vietnam, posted by Dave on Tue May 26 08:10:01 2015. no i refused to REGISTERi did not dodge the DRAFT |
|
|
|
|
Page 1 of 9 |
|