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(337503)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Jan 9 17:06:33 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by AlM on Thu Jan 9 16:50:08 2020.

It's very hard, and too bad you can't change the philosophy based on time of day. For example, in the middle of the night on some routes, every corner might as well be a bus stop and in many cases it wouldn't affect running time significantly (just take out parking!).

I think that in general, it should never come under 3 short city blocks. A sample exception would be when there are major points 5 blocks apart, each with bus stops, and you want to fit a middle stop between those two major points. The question of this thread seems to be: should that middle stop be there in that case, or not? (Example: Between Ocean and Bedford Avs in Brooklyn, or Bedford and Nostrand Avs).

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(337504)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 17:08:53 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 14:00:20 2020.

It was never 25 yet. Itís still 30 down from 35 and 40.

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(337506)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by Joe V on Thu Jan 9 17:12:56 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Jan 9 14:31:23 2020.

If they used the Q53 from Queens south of Rockaway Blvd to get to the Queens IND, they got screwed.

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(337507)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 17:15:40 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Jan 9 17:06:33 2020.

Most bus stops for different routes are never under 3 short blocks apart. A small percentage are two city blocks apart and those are on streets with little traffic and are lightly used so most buses skip some of this stops anyway. There should always be stops at transfer points. You shouldnít have to walk between bus stops in the middle of your trip also.

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(337508)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 17:17:29 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Jan 9 13:49:28 2020.

He should only be blamed if he lets the parts of the proposal with huge opposition go through.

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(337514)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by Snilcher on Thu Jan 9 17:35:08 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 17:05:28 2020.

The Q53 was run by Triboro Coach, not Green Lines.

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(337515)

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Articles and letters from todayís Rockaway papers

Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 17:57:47 2020, in response to Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by GojiMet86 on Mon Dec 30 23:37:03 2019.

Rockaway Wave

Rockaway Times article

See Letters 2 and 3







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(337516)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Jan 9 18:16:33 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 17:00:43 2020.

Yes obviously and that wasnít the purpose of that route. And whatís wrong with being self-fulfilling? Isnít that what express buses are ?

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(337517)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Jan 9 18:20:17 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 17:05:28 2020.

That the line wasnít filled to capacity. How many express buses are? Iíd say for intents and purposes the original Q53 was an express bus. They didnít charge the city bus express price and it didnít go to Manhattan but what else excluded it from being considered an express bus?

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(337518)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Jan 9 18:21:06 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 17:05:28 2020.

The rational was the DOT giving Triboro more dough for adding more stops along the route.

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(337519)

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Re: Articles and letters from todayís Rockaway papers

Posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Jan 9 18:26:14 2020, in response to Articles and letters from todayís Rockaway papers, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 17:57:47 2020.

Anyone that is a resident of the peninsula will comprehend how nasty these proposals are to the neighborhood. That Rockaway Times article is especially damning.

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(337520)

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Re: Articles and letters from todayís Rockaway papers

Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 18:39:04 2020, in response to Re: Articles and letters from todayís Rockaway papers, posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Jan 9 18:26:14 2020.

I think those are the only politicians that will fight back. Many others are taking a wait and see attitude and are telling their constituents not to worry that itís only a draft and they should just forward their complaints to the MTA who will listen to them.

The Queens Chronicle more or less stated that in their article today, but I didnít include that one because the rest of it was just the MTA press release that this would make everything better.


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(337521)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by Joe V on Thu Jan 9 18:39:18 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Jan 9 18:20:17 2020.

Shitty seats.

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(337522)

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Re: Articles and letters from todayís Rockaway papers

Posted by Joe V on Thu Jan 9 18:45:20 2020, in response to Articles and letters from todayís Rockaway papers, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 17:57:47 2020.

"QT52 route to serve Belle Harbor, Neponsit, and Jacob Riis Park during summer months"

What a fucking insult to everyone's intelligence. They think all people want to do west of the Q53 service area along the Peninsula is go to the beach.

Some MTA board meetings need to be ruined with mass protests.

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(337527)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 19:23:56 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Jan 9 18:16:33 2020.

How are express buses self-fulfilling? No offense, but I think you misunderstood ďself-fulfilling prophecy.Ē

As for the purpose of the route, Iíd say itís purpose was too narrow.

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(337528)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 20:26:25 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Jan 9 18:21:06 2020.

I thought the stops were added when the MTA took over. Didnít realize Triboro added the stops.

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(337531)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Jan 10 00:15:37 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 20:26:25 2020.

Iím not certain but Iím pretty sure they were added under Triboro time. Not too much unlike the added stops on the Q35 on Flatbush Avenue around the same time. Perhaps late 90s? Someone can clarify this hopefully.

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(337532)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Jan 10 00:39:18 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 19:23:56 2020.

Because it was an established policy in the past.

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(337533)

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Re: Articles and letters from todayís Rockaway papers

Posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Jan 10 00:40:25 2020, in response to Re: Articles and letters from todayís Rockaway papers, posted by Joe V on Thu Jan 9 18:45:20 2020.

Those meetings should be bombarded but they wonít be.

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(337535)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jan 10 08:04:52 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Jan 10 00:39:18 2020.

Huh?

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jan 10 08:44:12 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Jan 9 18:16:33 2020.

Let's look at it from this angle:

To go "straight north" from the Rockaways pre-2005 you had to take either the Q21 or Q53. The Q21 was so infrequent and indirect that in many people's minds at the time, you might as well have said you only had the Q53. But the Q53 was nonstop after Broad Channel to Rego Park. Thus, even if you could have managed with (or perhaps preferred) a destination much closer than Rego Park, where whatever need you were trying to meet by commuting could have been met (access to a potential job site, or the J/Z subway for example), you would go through to Rego Park or beyond almost "against your will" because that's where the bus took you and you would have to adjust perhaps some major components of your life around that arrangement.

Then if there is an added fare because you are on a nonstop bus, that adds insult to injury.

My main point is even if every nonstop run was populated, it does not imply that people are pleased with the arrangement.

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(337537)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jan 10 09:07:31 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jan 10 08:44:12 2020.

Thank you. The idea that people in the Rockaways didnít want those destinations is ridiculous. They didnít want them because they couldnít get to them.

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(337538)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jan 10 09:16:57 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Jan 10 00:15:37 2020.

It happened right away upon takeover.

But I was hoping to find an MTA timetable that shows it as nonstop. Such a document would be on the rare side, if one exists.

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(337539)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Jan 10 09:27:30 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jan 10 09:07:31 2020.

Lol

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(337540)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Jan 10 09:48:47 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jan 10 09:16:57 2020.

Very good.
I might be thinking of when they added stops to the Q35 on Flatbush Avenue.

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(337541)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jan 10 10:10:02 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Jan 10 09:48:47 2020.

In the early post-takeover days, the Q35 was an all local on Flatbush (made more stops than the B41 limited).

Yes, I'm fairly sure GBL made that change, very close to the end. I'm just trying to remember of the times I deliberately sought out a Q35 so as to pay the $1 off-peak fare and then get on an MTA bus with the free transfer if I ever got on at a local-only stop. So far I can't remember for sure.

Timetable history tends not to be too helpful with regard to the Q35 stop placements, unfortunately.

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(337542)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jan 10 10:13:35 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jan 10 10:10:02 2020.

I would add that although the Q35 was an all local in the mid 2000s, it would still often be faster along Flatbush Ave than the B41 Limited, mainly because if the northbound Q35 did not have anyone ringing the bell for a particular stop north of Kings Plaza, often the driver would not bother to stop the bus even with people waiting at the stop (since they had the B41).

I've also witnessed a few times the typical local-limited satire of the northbound B41 limited being held up at Kings Hwy so everyone can get on, while the "unpopular" Q35 local just breezed right on through and got to Nostrand first.

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(337543)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jan 10 10:15:41 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Jan 10 09:27:30 2020.

Why is that funny?

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(337544)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jan 10 10:25:58 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jan 10 10:10:02 2020.

The way I remember it, it was one of the first things the MTA did a month or two after the takeover.

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(337547)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jan 10 10:38:17 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jan 10 10:25:58 2020.

That and raising the fare to $2 (that was probably done before the first run went out)!

I'm being reminded in this thread how sweeping that takeover was. The end of 2006 was quite different from the beginning of it for people in the Rockaways. I also enjoyed that year a great deal because you'd see buses of all colors tossed about all over the place. I specifically remember being on an ex-JBL on the Q35 on Flatbush Ave, still in the red/brown color scheme.

I'm glad things have settled down, of course, but it was a wild time that I'm glad I got to see through from beginning to end.

The generation coming up now doesn't realize how it was. Pre-2005 if you wanted to go from, say, Marine Park to Elmhurst and it was important, you would almost definitely go through Manhattan by subway because you knew you couldn't trust the Q35/53 to get you there before you needed your next meal. Now the Q35/53 is probably the fastest and most stress-free way to go.

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(337548)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by JAzumah on Fri Jan 10 10:39:50 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jan 10 09:16:57 2020.

The MTA added stops from day 1, but it was in phases.

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(337551)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jan 10 10:49:45 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by JAzumah on Fri Jan 10 10:39:50 2020.

Yes, and the onset of SBS modified the listing too.

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by BusMgr on Fri Jan 10 10:55:32 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jan 10 08:44:12 2020.

Triboro Coach had plans to provide Q53 service at Liberty Avenue and points south within Howard Beach (discharge only northbound, pick-up only southbound). However, in latter years NYCDOT would not permit any of the private bus companies to make any service changes because NYCDOT wanted to use the lack of any responsive service changes as evidence that the service ought to be transferred to the MTA. Catch-22? After the MTA acquisition, they then implemented several of the private bus company plans (e.g., Q19 to Flushing), but in some cases, like here with the Q53, they overdid it, and destroyed what they had taken.

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(337553)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jan 10 11:23:58 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jan 10 10:38:17 2020.

The exception was Command. The B100 and B103 kept their $1.50 fare for about a month after takeover, with the express buses at $4.00. This coincided with the period of the 2005 strike (Spring Creek still operated as ATU is the union there) and the holiday fare discounts (remember that?).

Also at the time, the MTA raised the Express buses from $4.00 to $5.00, this coincided with the Queens Surface takeover, and included the already taken over LLE and NYBS, and included the other companies that were taken over in 2006, but Command, as I said, was delayed by about a month, so the BMs and BQM1 were still $4.00 under MTA Bus for a short while.

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jan 10 11:40:52 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by BusMgr on Fri Jan 10 10:55:32 2020.

I'm not on principle opposed to "zone-expresses," but certain conditions have to be met. There has to be an abundance of service on the section being skipped, and a way to transfer to that local service without having to pay another fare (or sacrifice the chance to transfer to the subway or another corridor).

Today a nonstop Q53 wouldn't be as terrible as it was pre-2005, presuming the Q11, 21, and 52 stay as they are and transfers are always free. But I couldn't go so far to say it's preferable. It would need at least stops at Jamaica and Liberty Avs, and probably more. The usage at the intervening stops speaks for itself.

The proposed nonstop route on Union Tpke between 188th and Parsons is not the way to go. No route should directly bypass a large university campus without stopping.

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jan 10 12:14:27 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jan 10 10:38:17 2020.

Not if the MTA has their way and discontinues the Q53.

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by B1bus on Fri Jan 10 13:18:44 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jan 10 08:44:12 2020.

Q21 ran every 35 min RH and 70 min off peak.

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(337562)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Jan 10 13:47:00 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jan 10 09:16:57 2020.

I refuse to believe that 6 additional stops would add up to an additional 20 minutes of travel time.

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(337563)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jan 10 14:13:44 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by B1bus on Fri Jan 10 13:18:44 2020.

Pathetic.

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(337564)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jan 10 14:14:30 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Jan 10 13:47:00 2020.

Hyperbole.

BUT: the buses did have to use the service roads instead of the main road, so that didnít help. Switching to the main road is therefore an improvement.

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(337565)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Jan 10 14:21:22 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jan 10 14:14:30 2020.

You are right about the service road.

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(337566)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by JAzumah on Fri Jan 10 14:42:29 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jan 10 11:40:52 2020.

I disagree. I think zoned rush hour buses on the Q46 CAN WORK. However, I don't think it will work outside of rush hour, so the routes should run local on a coordinated schedule off-peak.

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jan 10 15:19:45 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by JAzumah on Fri Jan 10 14:42:29 2020.

I think it can work too, but Utopia Pkwy should not be part of the non-stop segment.

In fact, about 15 years ago they went out of their way to add an eastbound limited stop directly in front of SJU, in addition to the one that's at Utopia Pkwy.

For people traveling between Kew Gardens and the far eastern end of the route, who I suppose would benefit the most from this arrangement, a lot of the time savings from a non-stop segment would be lost to the fact that the bus would (potentially) make every stop east of that segment.

It might be worth looking up why they canceled the zoned express on Union Tpke in the past.

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(337574)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by William A. Padron on Fri Jan 10 18:23:37 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by Q23 on Sun Jan 5 17:53:38 2020.

NYS Assembly Member Michael DemKekker is aware of the proposals that will negatively affect the Jackson Heights neighborhood. He is having his own discussion with the residents of the Southridge Co-Ops this upcoming Wednesday, January 15, 2019 starting at 7pm. The location is in the Rumpus Room of Southridge 1, 33-04 93rd Street, Jackson Heights, across from Northern Playground.

The MTA will have its official workshop for the area on Thursday, January 30 from 6pm to 8pm at the Langston Hughes Library and Cultural Center, 100-01 Northern Boulevard, Corona.

-William A. Padron
["East Elmhurst-102 St."]

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(337576)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by Joe V on Fri Jan 10 18:59:40 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jan 10 08:44:12 2020.

The original purpose of the Q53 franchise was to replace a commuter rail service, therefore the long nonstop run, and not to be glorified Q11 and eat Green's lunch.

It went past Parkside as they figure the area was served by Forest Hills station, and another bus was established for Brooklyn Manor, only dropped by Walder in 2010. Transfers to the Jamaica el were not a consideration because that is not what LIRR used the RBB line for.

65 years later, the Q53 has a different purpose, but the MTA is downright stupid to take it off and force-feed the Q52.

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(337578)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Jan 10 21:06:42 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jan 10 08:44:12 2020.

Wouldnít it be logical to think that if the demand to travel from Rockaway to places in between the 53ís stops they would have run the Q21 more reliably and frequently? Perhaps akin to the Q35ís regularity.

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(337583)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by Snilcher on Sat Jan 11 08:22:12 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Jan 10 21:06:42 2020.

Apparently not. Both the Q21 and the Q21A had terrible service, and ultimately the Q21A was discontinued entirely. The later decision to extend the Q21 up Woodhaven but remove the entire Rockaway segment only demonstrates further that Rockaway residents' desires were never even remotely factored in.



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(337584)

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Jan 11 08:22:15 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Jan 10 21:06:42 2020.

Wouldnít it be logical to think that if the demand to travel from Rockaway to places in between the 53ís stops they would have run the Q21 more reliably and frequently?

No, unfortunately, not before takeover.

There was the DOT, there was GBL (which had its own interests apart from Triboro's and the Q53), and perhaps other voices too that I understand had specificity to the Q21 route.

By the time the wheels were turning on any Q21 run, I think that too many people who were not actual passengers had too much to say about when and where those wheels should be turning and it turned out to be the mess it was.

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by BusMgr on Sat Jan 11 08:38:55 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Jan 11 08:22:15 2020.

The interests of Green Bus Lines and Triboro Coach were not substantially different; both had largely identical shareholders. At most there would have been rivalry among different employees of each, not much different from the rivalry that exists between the several Transit Authority garages.

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Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Jan 11 08:47:24 2020, in response to Re: Queens Bus Redesign Draft Proposals, posted by Snilcher on Sat Jan 11 08:22:12 2020.

The other thing is that the schedule itself was irregular, as it was for the Q35 at night. 70 minutes was a loose average, it wasn't a firm interval. So you're starting out with a strange schedule, even before we ask whether the schedule is actually met.

Even post-takeover some discrepancies are still visible. For example, in the Fall 2008 timetables, you have the Q53, limited, leaving Rockaway Park 6a.m. on Sunday morning, arriving at 157 Ave at 6:20a.m. But a Q21, with more scheduled stops, leaves Rockaway Park 6:07 and arrives at 157 Ave at 6:25a.m. But then, a Q21 doing the same run on a weekday afternoon (instead of a Sunday morning) also was scheduled for 18 minutes between those two points. Something was up.

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