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| What was the West Farms Spur? (713283) | |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by JBar387 on Sun Nov 30 03:29:22 2008, in response to What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by aem7ac on Sun Nov 30 01:43:59 2008. I think you might be reffering to the Bronx Park SpurIt's the only one I know of! |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by JBar387 on Sun Nov 30 03:33:25 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by JBar387 on Sun Nov 30 03:29:22 2008. P.S. I'm trying to find info on the question too! |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sun Nov 30 05:22:35 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by JBar387 on Sun Nov 30 03:29:22 2008. I think you might be reffering to the Bronx Park SpurThat's the other Bronx Park Spur. |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sun Nov 30 05:36:20 2008, in response to What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by aem7ac on Sun Nov 30 01:43:59 2008. What was the West Farms Spur and why was it torn down?Original terminus of the line at 180th Street (Bronx Park). Hence the "East" in East 180th Street. You can spot the remains in this photo, taken looking north from 177 St/E Tremont Av/West Farms Sq station. It closed in 1952. Why is there a huge curve right before (south of) E 180? Chicago-style "let's avoid a building"? Kind of. It was "let's avoid the park/zoo" though. What exactly happened when they took over the NY Westchester and Boston? I presume E 180 was an old RR yard and the other one (West Farms?) south of E 180 was the old IRT yard. There were three yards in the area. 177 St Yard was the Contract I IRT yard that opened in 1904. I'm not sure about the other two yards, but I think E 180 St Yard (i.e. the one on the west side) was IRT and Unionport Yard (i.e. the one on the east side) was NYWB. What exactly happened when they took over the NY Westchester and Boston? Don't know. |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Nov 30 05:37:42 2008, in response to What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by aem7ac on Sun Nov 30 01:43:59 2008. There USED to be a SECOND entrance to Bronx Park (on the ZOO side) which came off the White Plains el to Bronx park (separate from the Third Avenue El one) which entered the park from the EAST, rather than the west ...PAGING UNCA JOE FRANK. MOO! :) |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Nov 30 05:41:41 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sun Nov 30 05:36:20 2008. Atta boy! :)Can't give the history of the "Central Bronx and East" myself as I lived in the West Bronx and didn't much care since Bronx Park separated me from the rest ... but you're probably quite correct until someone else chides in at least ... no worries here. (grin) Unca Joe Frank (the "modeller") will eventually spot this and offer up chapter and verse to all interested, so no need for me to try to fake it "in lieu of" ... heh. |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by Mellow One on Sun Nov 30 05:55:50 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by JBar387 on Sun Nov 30 03:33:25 2008. The original IRT 1904 Westchester Ave subway line terminal was at Southern Blvd (originally Boston Post Road)& 180th St at the south entrance of the Bronx Zoo. The NYW&B 180th St terminal was opened in 1912. It was about a half mile east of the subway terminal. During the construction of the NYW&B the land (ROW) that the terminal was to occupy was swapped with the City for an adjacent parcel (100 yds east) so that the City could use that land for the extension of the subway line. Zoo officials would not permit the subway an easement through the Zoo property, which was the trace of the original Boston Post Road to White Plains Road. The subway line was indeed extended east to that property and for a period of time the West Farms Yard or spur existed while the White Plains Road extension was being built. The original yard for the subway line was on an elevated structure south of the Bronx Zoo Terminal. The extension (the current line) passes just north of the elevated yard. A junction with the old terminal existed until 1952, when that stub was closed and demolished. The elevated yard was replaced by the West Farms Yard and was removed some time prior to the removal of the original Zoo terminal.There were two Bronx Park Terminals, one was the Botanical Garden Terminal on the 3rd Ave El Line, and the other was the Bronx Zoo Terminal on the original subway line. There is also a Bronx Park East Station on the White Plains road line which is the next local stop north of the 180th St Express Station. There are a bunch of images and maps that will accompany this subject on a web page some time in the future. Have a nice day. |
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| (713310) | |
Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Nov 30 06:39:54 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by Mellow One on Sun Nov 30 05:55:50 2008. Thanks! I was never one for "subway obsessions" unless I wanted to KILL someone in downtown Brooklyn for causing me to lose a job for "too late, too often." :(Never knew too much about where things went since they were unfortunately before my time ... and whilst as a kid I *loved* the subways, pretty much only rode what was "visible" to me living west of Broadway in the Bronx for most of my life, with a brief stint on Webster and another on Sedgewick ... 4 train, D train, 1 train, A train. Not much else ever mattered to me - you crossed Bronx Park/Mosholu to White Plains Road to DIE. BX12, 'nuff said. Heh. THANKS for the rest, rode the third avenue el down to Fordham and caught a train into the spur to look at flowers and such, took the bus BACK from da zoo since it was "over there" ... well ... any BRONX boy learns to HATE beese because it's always a slow drag from one place to the other whilst the SUBWAY or the EL got ya downtown faster than any bus CROSS town. :) Seriously though ... thanks for pointing at what I didn't quite know. Can't wait until Unca Joe catches this and provides all the details. Though he ain't impressed with this place, every now and then something happens here where we can actually convince him to "leave prints" ... heh. I suspect he will, and HOPE so! |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sun Nov 30 09:00:48 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Nov 30 06:39:54 2008. You should have ridden the 3rd Av El up to Gun Hill Road for the 2 train... |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by Andy on Sun Nov 30 10:33:21 2008, in response to What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by aem7ac on Sun Nov 30 01:43:59 2008. "What exactly happened when they took over the NY Westchester and Boston?"The NY Westchester and Boston, between E 180th and Dyre Avenue, became part of the NYC subway in 1941 but was not physically connected to the rest of the system. Its old yard at E 180th was used by the equipment on what was called the Dyre Ave. Line, which used old IRT el cars salvaged from the 9th Ave. El. The E 180th St. stop on the NYW&B became the south terminus of the Dyre Line and was connected to the IRT White Plains E 180th stop by a free transfer passageway. Even though the Dyre Line used IRT equipment and was shown on maps as an IRT service, the Board of Transportation (the NYCTA after 1953) managed it as part of the IND and its crews were IND personnel. In 1957 the Dyre Line was physically connected to the IRT north of E 180th and thru service began between Dyre Avenue and the rest of the IRT (until 1965 on the 7th Ave. Express; since 1965 on the Lexington). The Dyre Line then became an official IRT route. The old station was then abandoned for passenger use but the old NYW&B building remains as the station entrance. South of E 180th and north of Dyre Ave. (by then you're in Westchester) was abandoned and never used again. |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Nov 30 10:53:56 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Nov 30 05:37:42 2008. USED to be? I always took that entrance, but its been decades since I went to the Bronx Zoo by subway. How do you get to the zoo by subway now? |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Sun Nov 30 11:26:45 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sun Nov 30 09:00:48 2008. That part was indeed scenic - with two of the sharpest curves I've ever seen. The one north of 210th Street ranked right up there with Crescent Street.-w- |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Nov 30 11:45:27 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by Andy on Sun Nov 30 10:33:21 2008. Its old yard at E 180th was used by the equipment on what was called the Dyre Ave. Line, which used old IRT el cars salvaged from the 9th Ave. The old yard is now called Unionport and is still used. E180th yard is a seperate entity. |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Nov 30 11:46:56 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by Mellow One on Sun Nov 30 05:55:50 2008. Thank you. |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Nov 30 11:49:01 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Nov 30 05:37:42 2008. That's still there, it's the main enterance. I always used the Southern Blvd. one, which is the one used by most bus and subway riders. I called it the "back door". |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by Dave on Sun Nov 30 11:52:32 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by Andy on Sun Nov 30 10:33:21 2008. I was always suprised the IRT didn't keep the center tracks north of Baychester Ave. and extend subway service into Mt. Vernon. |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by Andy on Sun Nov 30 13:30:55 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by Dave on Sun Nov 30 11:52:32 2008. NYC Transit and its predecessor Board of Transportation have always been restricted to providing service within the five boroughs. Mount Vernon is Westchester. From a global perspective it makes sense. But now at least Westchester buses provide a free Metrocard transfer to the IRT at Dyre Avenue. |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by milan1834 on Sun Nov 30 13:57:16 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by Andy on Sun Nov 30 10:33:21 2008. In 1957 the Dyre Line was physically connected to the IRT north of E 180th and thru service began between Dyre Avenue and the rest of the IRT (until 1965 on the 7th Ave. Express; since 1965 on the Lexington). The Dyre Line then became an official IRT route. The old station was then abandoned for passenger use but the old NYW&B building remains as the station entrance.And we've been in Dyre Avenue straits ever since... Milantram (ducking) |
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| (713466) | |
Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by Broadway Buffer on Sun Nov 30 16:59:55 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by SLRT on Sun Nov 30 10:53:56 2008. E Tremont, then walk about two or three blocks. Although last year during their Holiday Lights exhibit that zoo entrance was closed and they were directing people to use Bronx Pk East or E 180th. I don't know if they're having that again this year though. |
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| (713475) | |
Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Nov 30 17:30:07 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by Andy on Sun Nov 30 13:30:55 2008. I don't think NYCT is restricted to the 5 boroughs since it is now a constituent agency under the MTA which is a state authority. At the time of the Dyre takeover, however, The B of T was a city agency and as such was restricted to the 5 boroughs. Unfortunately even though the NYCT could operate in Westchester, most of the old NYW&B ROW has been obliterated by housing lots and even the N England Thruway in certain areas and therefore is unavailable for use as a rapid transit line. The reason that initilly, the Dyre Line was operated as part of the IND had to do with a requirement unde city law that all new city operated rapid transit lines had to be part of the IND Division but this changed in 1953 with the creation of the NYC Transit Authority which although operated the NY subway system was actually a STATE created agency and was granted exemptions from certain state and city laws that the old B of T was subject to. |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by Gerry6309 on Sun Nov 30 17:40:17 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by milan1834 on Sun Nov 30 13:57:16 2008. Great series of posts on these two old terminals which became redundant when extensions were added. The system evolved in stages and the remnants of these earlier pieces provide reasons for the appropriate questions to be asked. Too bad there is so little left of Third Av's spur to the park. |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by TunnelRat on Mon Dec 1 00:04:35 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by Andy on Sun Nov 30 10:33:21 2008. The dyre line WAS physically connected to the WPR line,how else did they get the cars on tracks? the large embankmentment at E180st was built for the NEW YORK&PORTCHESTER RR which never got off the ground.unionport yard was always unionport yard.The large building[torn down]was the shops for car maintainence[NY,W&B]it was used by the t.a. for materials[I delivered there several times]The ny,w&b had proposed a spur into the throggs neck section of "DA BRONX"it never got beyound the talkin`& drawin`stage.the reason that the BOT decided not to lay 3rd rail from the joint 3rd ave el,nhrr& ny,b&w at 132st&willis ave was that it was to close to the pelham line.henceforth,not enough passengers. |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by Dave on Mon Dec 1 10:16:59 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by TunnelRat on Mon Dec 1 00:04:35 2008. It wasn't a spur to Throggs Neck. It was an extension from the Westchester's Harlem River Terminal, passing under the Harlem River and entering 125th St. east of First Ave., and then in a subway with stops between Third and Lex Avenues; at Lenox Ave.; and between 8th and 9th Avenues. |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by Michael Wares on Mon Dec 1 10:38:10 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by Gerry6309 on Sun Nov 30 17:40:17 2008. "Too bad there is so little left of Third Av's spur to the park".One of only two pictures I've ever seen of the station (the building with the dome to the right): http://cgi.ebay.com/Elevated-Railway-Approach-Botanical-Garden-BRONX-NY_W0QQitemZ390003903237QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item390003903237&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A10%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318> |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by Michael Wares on Mon Dec 1 10:40:31 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by Broadway Buffer on Sun Nov 30 16:59:55 2008. No Holiday Lights this year, in order to be "cleaner and greener". |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 1 10:50:42 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by Michael Wares on Mon Dec 1 10:40:31 2008. Un-fucking-believable. |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 1 10:52:05 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by milan1834 on Sun Nov 30 13:57:16 2008. I want my I want my I want my BMT ... |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 1 10:53:39 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by TunnelRat on Mon Dec 1 00:04:35 2008. Wasn't the NYW&B and the NY & Port Chester the same thing? IIRC, the NYW&B terminated (one branch) in Port Chester. |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Mon Dec 1 10:54:36 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by randyo on Sun Nov 30 17:30:07 2008. And of course there's nothing to stop an MTA Subway from Mount Vernon "recapturing" parts of the NYCTA Subway... |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 1 10:56:26 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by Dave on Mon Dec 1 10:16:59 2008. If it had been extended to connect into the NYC trunk line, giving NYW&B trains access to Grand Central, the line would probably still exist, as a branch of the New Haven operated by Metro North. |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 1 10:59:23 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by Andy on Sun Nov 30 13:30:55 2008. Is NYC the only city whose subway system is restricted to the city limits in which it operates? There's plenty of "suburban" areas a subway would make sense for. I could see the IRT extended to Yonkers if the Getty Sq. branch had been retained. I could also see the A train running all the way through 5 Towns. And the 7 could run to Port Washington. |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by TunnelRat on Mon Dec 1 12:15:01 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 1 10:53:39 2008. the ny&portchester was acquired by the ny,w&b.it had graded several ROW`S in westchester& even built a bridge[never used]in harrison,ny.on page 152 of westchester`s forgotten railway is the proposed ext.into throgg`s neck.the 125st ext.was an afterthought when the line was going belly up.also was the idea to run it over 2nd ave EL tracks into manhattan. |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by Dave on Mon Dec 1 13:40:04 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 1 10:56:26 2008. An additional extension was planned from the planned terminus on 125th/9th. Ave. to Amsterdam Ave. and from there, south into downtown. |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by Dave on Mon Dec 1 13:50:39 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by TunnelRat on Mon Dec 1 12:15:01 2008. The New York, Housatonic & Northern also planned an extension to Throggs Neck from West Farms.The Westchester's plan to extend to 125th St. was hardly an afterthought - plans were proposed in 1928 - 29, years before the railroad shut down. |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by TunnelRat on Mon Dec 1 17:49:13 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by Dave on Mon Dec 1 13:50:39 2008. actually it was 1926 that the harlem board of commerce proposed that the ny.w&b be connected to the 8th ave subway via a 3 or 4 track tunnel under the harlem river via 125st to st.nicholas ave.page 30,westchester`s forgotten ry. |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by TunnelRat on Mon Dec 1 17:49:14 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by Dave on Mon Dec 1 13:50:39 2008. actually it was 1926 that the harlem board of commerce proposed that the ny.w&b be connected to the 8th ave subway via a 3 or 4 track tunnel under the harlem river via 125st to st.nicholas ave.page 30,westchester`s forgotten ry. |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Mon Dec 1 21:35:54 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 1 10:59:23 2008. I could see the IRT extended to Yonkers if the Getty Sq. branch had been retainedAs a joke, I once proposed that the 1 end at 207th Street, and that the A should continue northward along the "recaptured" IRT tracks as a two track railway to 242th Street-VCP and then follow the old Putnam ROW into Getty Square in the Bronx. The fun side effect is that MTA Bus gets to pawn off an express bus line... I could also see the A train running all the way through 5 Towns. Yes, because they want a glacially slow subway ride to Midtown over the much faster LIRR service. And the 7 could run to Port Washington. Actually, at that point, I'd rather turn the Port Washington Line into a subway and feed it into 63rd Street. Hell, it's not like there's any freight on the line, and hell, maybe one day, NYCTA might be able to maintain line speeds around 60mph by keeping the ASC system... |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Mon Dec 1 21:51:05 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Mon Dec 1 21:35:54 2008. As a joke, I once proposed that the 1 end at 207th Street, and that the A should continue northward along the "recaptured" IRT tracks as a two track railway to 242th Street-VCP and then follow the old Putnam ROW into Getty Square in the Bronx. The fun side effect is that MTA Bus gets to pawn off an express bus line...It should be no joke. Although aiming straight for the Putnam ROW, rather than up to the El and back down, is probably easier. |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Mon Dec 1 22:01:33 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 1 10:59:23 2008. Toronto by today's boundaries (although not at the time) is limited to city boundaries. |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Mon Dec 1 22:04:35 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Mon Dec 1 21:35:54 2008. While you are on that subject...there should be a way (with minimal property acquisition) to extend the #5 to the Mount Vernon East railroad station (via Columbus Avenue---the area that would need to be acquired is mostly commercial).There would also be a station at Sandford Boulevard. |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Mon Dec 1 22:05:31 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by AMoreira81 on Mon Dec 1 22:04:35 2008. The property is actually industrial. |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on Tue Dec 2 17:21:52 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by Michael Wares on Mon Dec 1 10:38:10 2008. Rats!!! "The Biller or seller has ended bidding on this item". |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Dec 2 17:26:18 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by Dan Lawrence on Tue Dec 2 17:21:52 2008. Why? Were you planning on placing a bid? |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue Dec 2 20:36:14 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 1 10:50:42 2008. Arrrrggggggh! I guess a lot of us aren't old enough to remember the last time they tried to make turning lights out fashionable. It was in the "Era of Limits" when less was best. That was Jimmy Carter. People hated it and Reagan beat him in a landslide in 1980. |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Dec 2 20:39:55 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by SLRT on Tue Dec 2 20:36:14 2008. Difference is, now it's fashionable and corporate America is thrusting it upon us as "environmental responsibility. Malaise is back. We voted for it last month. |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Dec 2 20:46:26 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Dec 2 20:39:55 2008. Yeah, funny how democrats come in after the other party runs the economy into a ditch ... :( |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by murray1575 on Tue Dec 2 20:48:44 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 1 10:59:23 2008. Of course the tracks the A train uses to get to Far Rockaway did at one time extend into the Five Towns and beyond (when the LIRR owned them) but that was before 1955. After that the tracks were severed at Far Rockaway and a new LIRR station was opened east of where the old one was. The old LIRR station property was sold and a shopping center built on the site. |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Dec 2 21:57:45 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Dec 2 20:46:26 2008. The Democrats *built* the ditch (Fanie May and Fredie Mac) and the RINOs sided with them, so nothing *could* be done about it even if the Shrub wanted to.It *had* to collapse some time, all Ponzi Schemes do. I know what we should do. Let the Democrats rebuild Health Care after their own image. ROARING |
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Re: What was the West Farms Spur? |
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Posted by Broadway Buffer on Tue Dec 2 23:20:55 2008, in response to Re: What was the West Farms Spur?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Dec 2 20:39:55 2008. I'm not against saving energy here and there and watching wasteful use etc. but I can't understand the hysteria which has forced the elimination of nice exhibits like this holiday lights. Seems we can't even have a little fun if it's going to be at the expense of a few kilowatts. |
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