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| Re: Set Your VCR (384012) | |
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| (385954) | |
Re: Set Your VCR |
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Posted by J trainloco on Mon Feb 12 16:23:19 2007, in response to Re: Set Your VCR, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 12 16:15:22 2007. The manhattan bridge is not as high as the Verrazano. I understand all that slope stuff you're talking about, I took a class on site analysis last semester. I'm just asking: what is the grade of the manhattan bridge? |
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Re: Set Your VCR |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Mon Feb 12 16:26:29 2007, in response to Re: Set Your VCR, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 11 23:58:17 2007. I still think that a subway tunnel under the Kill Van Kull would surely be a much easier approach. |
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Re: I AM A HIGH SCHOOL STDENT! Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by J trainloco on Mon Feb 12 16:36:58 2007, in response to Re: I AM A HIGH SCHOOL STDENT! Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Mon Feb 12 16:15:52 2007. Are they really? Do you really want to chance whether or not your kid will encounter a predator on their way home? |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: I AM A HIGH SCHOOL STDENT! Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Mon Feb 12 16:45:34 2007, in response to Re: I AM A HIGH SCHOOL STDENT! Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by J trainloco on Mon Feb 12 16:36:58 2007. Are they really? Do you really want to chance whether or not your kid will encounter a predator on their way home?Well, there's going to be a point where as a parent, one may have to take that risk. The only that I as a parent would have to do is try and minimize the risk to my future children as much as possible. |
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Re: I AM A HIGH SCHOOL STDENT! Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by J trainloco on Mon Feb 12 16:58:47 2007, in response to Re: I AM A HIGH SCHOOL STDENT! Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Mon Feb 12 16:45:34 2007. Knock yourself out. |
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| (385981) | |
Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Feb 12 17:01:54 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Feb 11 22:07:53 2007. It wasn't a question of expense or massive redesign to allow buses.Raising overpasses by "a foot or two" is a massive redesign and would be very expensive. I've never understood the argument that Moses intentionally barred buses from the Parkways to keep blacks off Long Island. It isn't like the Parkways are the only roads there. |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Feb 12 17:03:42 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Feb 11 22:23:47 2007. Buses might have been not so popular in the 20s and many of them were smaller, more like 20 passenger jitneys...They also had much lower clearance and could have easily fit under Parkway bridges. |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Feb 12 17:15:12 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 12 14:28:15 2007. So do you think that Caro was not telling the truth?Take The Power Broker with a grain of salt. It's a great work, but Caro did have an agenda; some of the "facts" presened in the book range from embellishments to outright lies. |
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| (385993) | |
Re: Set Your VCR |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Feb 12 17:22:09 2007, in response to Re: Set Your VCR, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 11 23:58:17 2007. Correct, but the controversy being discussed was the potential use of 2nd Ave instead for the Gowanas PARKWAY. You are talking about the Expressway some decades later, after the ROW was already there for the Gowanas on 3rd.No, the ROW was taken for the Gowanus Parkway. According to nycroads.com, placing the elevated highway on an existing elevated structure was more likely to be approved by the City Council than constructing a new elevated structure. |
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| (386006) | |
Re: I AM A HIGH SCHOOL STDENT! Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Mon Feb 12 17:41:45 2007, in response to Re: I AM A HIGH SCHOOL STDENT! Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Mon Feb 12 15:54:10 2007. I don't know how overprotective his parents are, but there are many parents in the States loathe to let their children walk around alone for fear of various predators.Well, I suppose in Moses-world there wouldn't be any passers-by to witness such crimes; they'd all live at the end of mile-long driveways. But then there's the question as to how those people would get to such a nice neighborhood... |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 12 18:14:16 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Feb 12 17:01:54 2007. "It isn't like the Parkways are the only roads there."Taking local roads from the City would greatly increase the time it takes to make the trip, more so then than now because there were less cars and less traffic on the parkways on nice summer day. |
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Re: TypoRe: Set Your VCR |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon Feb 12 18:15:27 2007, in response to TypoRe: Set Your VCR, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 12 16:16:05 2007. Narrows Bridge is over 200ft MHW..center span/ |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 12 18:16:06 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Feb 12 17:15:12 2007. Give me an example of one lie. What agenda did he have? He had no personal beef with Moses as far as I know. He would have sold just as many books even if he were less critical. |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by ntrainride on Mon Feb 12 18:23:45 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by Rail Blue on Mon Feb 12 15:53:00 2007. Hmmm, GARDEN CITIES OF TO-MORROW" , eh? Interesting.Here's a clip from him that tells it nicely: "And this principle of growth--this principle of always preserving a belt of country round our cities would be ever kept in mind till, in course of time, we should have a cluster of cities, not of course arranged in the precise geometrical form of my diagram, but so grouped around a Central City that each inhabitant of the whole group, though in one sense living in a town of small size, would be in reality living in, and would enjoy all the advantages of, a great and most beautiful city; and yet all the fresh delights of the country--field, hedgerow, and woodland--not prim parks and gardens merely--would be within a very few minutes' walk or ride. |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Mon Feb 12 18:28:06 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by ntrainride on Mon Feb 12 18:23:45 2007. Hmmm, GARDEN CITIES OF TO-MORROW" , eh? Interesting.Yes. Shame it's total bollocks. The famous magnet image is great rhetoric:  But really, the suburban experience is far closer to a combination of the vices. |
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Re: Set Your VCR |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 12 18:49:02 2007, in response to Re: Set Your VCR, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Feb 12 17:22:09 2007. Chris:"You are talking about the Expressway some decades later, after the ROW was already there for the Gowanas on 3rd. Hope Tunnel: No, the ROW was taken for the Gowanus Parkway. According to nycroads.com, placing the elevated highway on an existing elevated structure was more likely to be approved by the City Council than constructing a new elevated structure." Chris, you are wrong. I am not talking about the Expressway some decades later. This is what the link to nycroads.com says: "Since the Gowanus Parkway was to be constructed atop a pre-existing elevated facility, Moses had little trouble getting his project approved by the New York City Council." (With his power, he still could have gotten a new road approved along Second Avenue if he wanted to, maybe with a little more difficulty.) "However, the Gowanus Parkway would require more land for a wide roadway and entrance-exit ramps. This required the demolition of many homes and businesses along Third Avenue, a tightly knit block of Northern and Western European immigrants. In his 1974 biography The Power Broker, Robert A. Caro argued that Moses' highway created a "Chinese wall" that accelerated the process of deterioration that began two blocks west, along the waterfront terminals. He also points out that residents fought to have the highway placed closer to the waterfront to protect the neighborhood. The Gowanus Parkway project, including the widened Third Avenue for local truck traffic, was completed on October 1, 1941." So homes and long established businesses had to be demolished for the original Parkway. It wasn't simply placed atop the el pillars. The Expressway just meant even more demolition of homes. "In 1955, both the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority (TBTA) and the Federal Bureau of Public Roads (BPR) recommended that the existing Gowanus Parkway be converted to an expressway... Two years later, the Board of Estimate approved the expansion of the existing four-lane parkway into a six-lane expressway, providing access to the proposed Verrazano-Narrows Bridge...Soon after the expressway conversion was approved, work began on widening the elevated section from two to three lanes in each direction, and eliminating some entrance and exit ramps. More demolition was required along the Third Avenue corridor: approximately 200 buildings were condemned for the expressway expansion." |
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| (386158) | |
Re: Set Your VCR |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 12 21:53:58 2007, in response to Re: Set Your VCR, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 12 18:49:02 2007. So homes and long established businesses had to be demolished for the original Parkway. It wasn't simply placed atop the el pillars. The Expressway just meant even more demolition of homes.Thanks understood. I guess, 3rd Ave made the most sense because the el was there. And while the expressway is a necessity. It would have created havoc wherever it was planned. Unfortunately some area and, people had to suffer because of the greater good. More demolition was required along the Third Avenue corridor: approximately 200 buildings were condemned for the expressway expansion." I guess by that point that meant buildings on the side streets, as apparently one side of 3rd was already demolished for the Parkway. Does anyone know of any photos available online of the Gowanas PARKWAY, or construction/demolition photos from when the Exxpressway was built? If that was done in the 60's, they shouldn't be that hard to come by, as it's not like earlier decades when less cameras were around. |
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Re: TypoRe: Set Your VCR |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 12 21:56:47 2007, in response to Re: TypoRe: Set Your VCR, posted by Edwards! on Mon Feb 12 18:15:27 2007. That would mean even if the grade was the same for the Manhattan Bridge, the incline would need to be much longer to reach the Narrows bridge I would assume. |
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| (386162) | |
Re: Set Your VCR |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 12 21:59:47 2007, in response to Re: Set Your VCR, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 12 14:46:49 2007. You're only adding to Edwards! argument that homes were destroyed needlessly. If a tunnel were built instead, you wouldn't have needed the portion of the BQE south of 65th Street.I;m sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant leave the bridge as it is, but a tunnel would have made more sense for the SUBWAY, because of the extremely large and long ramps that would be necessary to bring a train onto that bridge..... |
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| (386163) | |
Re: Set Your VCR |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 12 22:00:21 2007, in response to Re: Set Your VCR, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Feb 12 14:51:30 2007. Haha, I forgot about that! |
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| (386176) | |
Re: Set Your VCR |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon Feb 12 22:18:51 2007, in response to Re: Set Your VCR, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 12 21:53:58 2007. Greater GOOD?My God,man.. Have You seen the Gowanas lately? What good has it serves LATELY? It always bumper to bumper...it's falling apart REGARDLY of how much money they spend CONSTANTLY to keep it together..and most times,it easier to take 3rd avenue than the highway! Do you know that PARK SLOP and the other communities want that monstrosity GONE so bad that they {the city} is studying a way to SINK it OFF SHORE in the NEW YORK BAY on LAND FILL? Greater good? |
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| (386184) | |
Re: I AM A HIGH SCHOOL STDENT! Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by Easy on Mon Feb 12 22:24:57 2007, in response to Re: I AM A HIGH SCHOOL STDENT! Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Mon Feb 12 15:54:10 2007. There was a case a few years back where this Dutch woman had her infant kid taken away from her because she left him in a stroller on a sidewalk a NYC while she and her husband ate lunch inside a restaurant. It was evidently not an unusual thing to do in the Netherlands. (Or maybe she was Danish from Holland...I forget the details.) |
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Re: I AM A HIGH SCHOOL STDENT! Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Mon Feb 12 22:43:54 2007, in response to Re: I AM A HIGH SCHOOL STDENT! Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by Jeff Rosen on Sun Feb 11 13:13:48 2007. haha, wow.....sheltered much? |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Mon Feb 12 22:46:26 2007, in response to A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 9 14:16:58 2007. Full CRRLI |
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Re: Set Your VCR |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 12 23:00:42 2007, in response to Re: Set Your VCR, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 12 21:53:58 2007. "It would have created havoc wherever it was planned. Unfortunately some area and, people had to suffer because of the greater good."But there would have been much less havoc on 2nd Avenue, but Moses wouldn't listen. It would of cost a few bucks more, but it would have been worth it. |
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Re: I AM A HIGH SCHOOL STDENT! Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 12 23:02:07 2007, in response to Re: I AM A HIGH SCHOOL STDENT! Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by Easy on Mon Feb 12 22:24:57 2007. I remember that one. They were thinking of charging her with child neglect. I think the charges were dropped. |
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Re: Set Your VCR |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 12 23:44:42 2007, in response to Re: Set Your VCR, posted by Edwards! on Mon Feb 12 22:18:51 2007. Have You seen the Gowanas lately?What good has it serves LATELY? Can you imagine all those cars and trucks on the regular roads instead. The traffic HAS to get through somehow. That road is a necessary evil. Until it can be sunk (which is a great idea), it has to do. There HAS to be a road like that that cuts through. |
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Re: Set Your VCR |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 12 23:47:13 2007, in response to Re: Set Your VCR, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 12 14:26:59 2007. Horace Harding Boulevard pre-dated the LIE so they would not have been on local streets but on a surface parkway that probably would have been widened to three lanes each way, had Moses not built the LIE.The LIE is a NECESSARY road. It's the ONLY limited access expressway that cuts across Long Island. There is no way Jericho Turnpike and Sunrise Highway could have absorbed all the traffic that the LIE carries. We may curse it at rush hours, but it's a necessary evil, just as the BQE/Gowanas is. |
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Re: Set Your DVR/TIVO |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 12 23:49:47 2007, in response to Re: Set Your DVR/TIVO, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Feb 12 15:40:46 2007. They still make those top loaders, or are you talking garage sale?I bought a front loader VCR, just to have as a second VCR on an extra TV some years ago for $2 as a garage sale. I rarely if ever use one anymore (although it was some years back), but I couldn't turn it up for $2....and it works fine the once a year I use it..... |
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Re: Set Your VCR |
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Posted by J trainloco on Mon Feb 12 23:51:35 2007, in response to Re: Set Your VCR, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 12 23:44:42 2007. It's always in piss-poor shape. |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 12 23:54:14 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Feb 12 17:01:54 2007. I've never understood the argument that Moses intentionally barred buses from the Parkways to keep blacks off Long Island. It isn't like the Parkways are the only roads there.That's because it's a manufactured claim. Buses weren't even at the point they are today in the 1930's, and were really in their infancy yet to replace trolleys. By the 50's buses had come of age, but that was later, after the parkways were3 built. And by the time it was realized that roads for buses and trucks were needed.....expressways were born....some parkways were even converted to expressways... |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 12 23:58:03 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 12 18:14:16 2007. Taking local roads from the City would greatly increase the time it takes to make the trip, more so then than now because there were less cars and less traffic on the parkways on nice summer day.That would mean that there were less cars on the other roads too.... But that as an aside, we are talking the 1930's when the parkways were in their infancy. Cars only came into general vogue by the 20's. Buses later. People are thinking of this like buses were what they are today in the 1930's, and even the 40's yet, and obviously they weren't, as buses were even still in their infancy. It wasn't until the late 40's and 50's that buses got a stronghold.... |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Feb 13 00:15:04 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 12 18:16:06 2007. You can find just as many counterarguments of this bridge myth if you search the internet, just as you can find the myth saying it's true. Don't take everything you read as fact. You are allowed to take the Power Broker with a grain of salt as has been recomended."In social studies of technology, as in many other scientific disciplines, highly persuasive similes are at work: pious stories, seemingly reaped from research, suggesting certain general theoretical insights. Variously adapted, they are handed down: in the process, they acquire almost doctrinal unassailability. One such parable, which has been retold in technology and urban studies for a long time, is the story of Robert Moses' low bridges, preventing the poor and the black of New York from gaining access to Long Island resorts and beaches. The story turns out to be counterfactual, but even if a small myth is disenchanted, it serves a purpose: to resituate positions in the old debate about the control of social processes via buildings and other technical artefacts - or, more generally, about material form and social content. Here's just one I found in a quick google search. You can skim true it fast, and it basically says that Caro's (and others) claim on the bridges is hogwash. You can find many on both sides of the fence. (And I don't mean sites like wikipedia where people can add anything). But remember....buses weren't what they are today when the parkways were being built, so the claim is very likely counterfactual. Remember, the parkways began being built in I think 1924....hardly "bus time". |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Feb 13 00:17:54 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Feb 12 17:03:42 2007. Yes, and if one notices today, they can (and do) run those smaller school buses on the Parkways...and those were a lot more like the buses of the past, especially 1920's, 30's when the parkways were in their infancy.I doubt Robert Moses envision the "Hampton Jitney" or "Classic Coach", or even the size of the MTA buses in 1924 or the 1930's. Unless the "death to Moses" people think he was some sort of psychic too. |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Feb 13 00:19:53 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Feb 13 00:15:04 2007. Much as I dislike Moses, the likely reason the bridges along parkways are low is simply that the roads were intended to be, and remain today, limited to non-commercial vehicles, i.e., cars. There would have been no need to make the bridges higher than necessary to allow clearance for cars. |
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| (386256) | |
Re: Set Your VCR |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Feb 13 00:21:19 2007, in response to Re: Set Your VCR, posted by J trainloco on Mon Feb 12 23:51:35 2007. Agreed, but that's the nature of the type of structure it gets, the extreme amount of traffic it carries, and the maintenance it gets and has gotten over the years. All that traffic would be ripping up the local roads without it..... It HAS to get through some how. |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Feb 13 00:42:39 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by italianstallion on Tue Feb 13 00:19:53 2007. Caro seems to have several credible sources that Moses deliberately had parkway bridges designed to prevent buses from using them. But he has no source for the assertion that this was intended to keep poor blacks from using state parks and beaches. In fact, he doesn't realy make this assertion . He implies it by placing the statement about low bridges in the same paragraph as a laundry list of other Moses actions that discouraged blacks fom Jones Beach -- limited bus permits to Negro groups, shunting Negro buses to certain far away parking lots, etc. But he never actually says that the low-bridge policy was designed as racist. (Power Broker, pp. 318-319 - also check the index under Transportation- Buses.) |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by sic transit gloria on Tue Feb 13 02:12:07 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by Future Motorman on Mon Feb 12 12:09:01 2007. Your plan does a good job of covering the Bronx |
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Re: Set Your VCR |
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Posted by American Pig on Tue Feb 13 02:50:41 2007, in response to Re: Set Your VCR, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 12 16:15:22 2007. 135 vs. 220 feet. |
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Re: Set Your VCR |
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Posted by American Pig on Tue Feb 13 02:51:56 2007, in response to Re: Set Your VCR, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 12 14:46:49 2007. A tunnel would not have had 12 lanes. |
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Re: Set Your VCR |
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Posted by American Pig on Tue Feb 13 02:55:42 2007, in response to Re: Set Your VCR, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 12 21:53:58 2007. Does anyone know of any photos available online of the Gowanas PARKWAY, or construction/demolition photos from when the Exxpressway was built?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gowanus_Expressway |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Feb 13 08:26:19 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by Future Motorman on Mon Feb 12 12:09:01 2007. It's not the 1 that should be branched off at 207th. Rather the A should be extended east across the Bronx. The A has more capacity than the 1. |
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| (386329) | |
Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by ntrainride on Tue Feb 13 10:23:38 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Feb 10 22:54:20 2007. More Moses info:This is about a Columbia-sponsored exhibit: "Robert Moses: New Perspectives on the Master Builder" to be held in March. And here's a paper titled Robert Moses: Visionary or Villain? This is from a paper submitted by Thomas Kessner at City University of New York: "It was the thirties, tough depressed times, when most mayors were begging their governors for increases in their relief budgets, and here was La Guardia unfolding a program for a colossal new infrastructure paid for by the president. He assigned to Robert Moses the primary responsibility for building. In a single year, the hardbitten taskmaster, famed as New York’s master builder, poured 26 million federal dollars into the city parks, increasing their number by a third. He also completed the plans for a complex of four bridges linking together Manhattan, the Bronx and Queens, as well as two East River islands. Years before the federal government had shut down funding for this $50 million dollar Triborough project when it fell into Tammany’s hands, but Moses got it started again, adding new parkways, the East River Drive, and new recreation areas on Ward's and Randall's islands. By the end of La Guardia’s first administration the New Deal had funneled more than $1 billion into NYC." |
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Re: Set Your VCR |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Feb 13 10:23:51 2007, in response to Re: Set Your VCR, posted by American Pig on Tue Feb 13 02:55:42 2007. Doesn't it look like both sides of Third Ave still have it's buildings that fronted on it? I totally understand that many buildings were knocked down for the parkway, but it appears the real assault was when it came time for the Expressway. Those are great photos by the way, I haven't seen too many. i would really love to see the construction/demolition photos if they are around somewhere. |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Feb 13 10:33:39 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by ntrainride on Tue Feb 13 10:23:38 2007. By the end ofLa Guardia’s first administration the New Deal had funneled more than $1 billion into NYC RIght, money that wouldn't have come to NY at all if not for them. It's quite unfortunate that more transit wasn't built (but cityh was spending on transit back then), but it's not like if there wasn't a Moses taking money for the roads that all this money would have come to NY for transit. That's simply not true. The issue when it comes to Moses and transit is NOT that Moses didn't get money for transit, and instead for roads. The issue is that there wasn't a similar man pushing to get transit stuff done and money for that. But again, THAT WAS the era. People were more interested in roads and bridges than transit. They needed roads and bridges back then, once private cars were invented, and became commonplace, their effect on the landscape was ineveidable. And that's not just NY, that's EVERYWHERE. |
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| (386345) | |
Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 13 11:09:01 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Feb 13 10:33:39 2007. I'll repeat what I said before. Yes, Moses does deserve a lot of credit for everything he accomplished. If not for him, many of the projects he got done in a very short period of time either would never have gotten done at all or years later in a scaled down version, with New Yorkers suffering the consequences.I believe Caro agrees with this and gives Moses the proper credit he deserves. With that said, I don't believe, however, you are correct is assuming that the problem was that there wasn't a "Robert Moses" for transit. If you read the Power Broker, you know about the power that Moses wielded and how he handled that power using intimidation. If such an RM guy would have existed, it is doubtful that he would have been able to accomplish anything as long as Moses was in power. The funding pot in Washington was limited. Moses and the fictitional RM would have been competing for the same funds. Moses would have found a way to assure that he gets the funds he needs for roads and your RM guy gets bubkis (peanuts, if thats a good translation) for transit. To succeed he would have had to have the same personality as Moses which meant that the subway projects he got built would not have been what was necessarily best for New York which is why I included the "York Avenue subway with one stop at 86th Street" in my earlier example and not a full blown Second Avenue Subway. "it's not like if there wasn't a Moses taking money for the roads that all this money would have come to NY for transit." That part of what you say is true. If Moses didn't shoot himself in the foot by making a few stupid maneuvers in the early sixties, he would have been in power until the day he died. He got a fitting punishment in the end. His last days were miserable and he was in pure hell. He had all this knowledge that he wanted to share but no one wanted to listen to him. |
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Re: Set Your VCR |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 13 11:18:55 2007, in response to Re: Set Your VCR, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 12 23:44:42 2007. "Until it gets sunk".Yes, that would be a great idea. But what makes you think that will happen? The City will look for the cheapest alternative and that will mean rebuilding it as is. Of course, a tunnel would not be that expensive after you consider all the economic benefits that would result from a revitalized Sunset Park within the next thirty years. This is where we need a "Robert Moses". That's what it would take to get the funding to rebuild it along the shore with new parkland. |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Feb 13 11:32:08 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 13 11:09:01 2007. If such an RM guy would have existed, it is doubtful that he would have been able to accomplish anything as long as Moses was in power.Probably true, but NO other city was expanding transit at the time either. THAT was the mentality back then, focused only on roads, and none on transit....almost everywhere in the country. The funding pot in Washington was limited. Ahhh, and here comes my point out...Moses brought a hell of a lot of that LIMITED funding pot TO NY, instead of it going to some other city for "their" road and bridge project. The choice wasn't "that money will come to NY anyway, and would have been for transit". No, that is not the case. Moses and the fictitional RM would have been competing for the same funds. Moses would have found a way to assure that he gets the funds he needs for roads and your RM guy gets bubkis (peanuts, if thats a good translation) for transit. Ah, my point again....There WAS NO transit guy ANYWHERE.....but Moses DID get the money away from OTHER cities up for the same money, that may have not had a figure that was as powerful as moses. It's choice A or B. To NY or not to NY, there is no C for transit, as NO ONE was expanding transit in that era. They were ALL expanding roads and bridges. If Moses didn't shoot himself in the foot by making a few stupid maneuvers in the early sixties No, by that time, the era of Moses' thinking was over. Moses did this in an era when people thought in the same thinking, "Expand ROads". By the 60's, the "golden age" of road expansion was over, just as the "golden age" of transit expansion was over a half a century earlier. |
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Re: Set Your VCR |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 13 11:32:12 2007, in response to Re: Set Your VCR, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Feb 13 10:23:51 2007. "Doesn't it look like both sides of Third Ave still have it's buildings that fronted on it?"It looks like you are right about that (at least partially, I'll explain in the last sentence). But with the width of Third Avenue before widening, it's hard to imagine. The four lanes of traffic must have been wider than the width of the Third Avenue El without stations. My guess is that the parkway came right up to the building line, (sort of like the Simpson Street curve on the Number 2), so the reduced light on the street probably also had an impact in the decline of the neighborhood. Also, the article in NYCRoads.com stated that the building of the Expressway included the demolition of a number of exits along Third Avenue. So there must of been portions of Third Avenue not shown in the photo that did make it necessary to demolish one side or both sides of Third Avenue. |
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Re: Set Your VCR |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 13 11:34:39 2007, in response to Re: Set Your VCR, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 12 23:47:13 2007. I agree with you but I wasn't talking about the LI portion of the LIE. I was referring to the Queens Midtown Expressway portion near the entrance to the Midtown Tunnel which was what was being discussed. |
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