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| (1507597) | |
Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by mack c-49 on Tue Mar 19 21:14:45 2019 Who can predict the future? It seems strange that after system adaptations were made in the late 60s to accommodate the R44s and later orders of 75 footers, subsequent rolling stock for the B division has all been 60-foot to date. I hope the existing 75-footers have a long future, and maybe will be joined eventually by new ones. There will always be plenty of 60-footers to serve the Eastern routes; the rest of the system can live more spaciously |
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| (1507598) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Mar 19 21:57:04 2019, in response to Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by mack c-49 on Tue Mar 19 21:14:45 2019. Don't hold your breath. The R211's will be 60'ers, once they're all in there will probably be no R46's remaining.After that, the only 75'ers to be replaced will be the R68/68A's. If I were a betting man, I'd bet on 60'ers to replace them too. |
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| (1507599) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 19 22:05:53 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Mar 19 21:57:04 2019. Whether 75’ or 60’, I hope that all new cars are open gangway style. I know that most of the base R-211s won’t be, but the options could go either way. |
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| (1507608) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by VictorM on Tue Mar 19 23:21:05 2019, in response to Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by mack c-49 on Tue Mar 19 21:14:45 2019. If the open gangways for the few R211s that have them succeed, that would probably preclude any future car orders to be 75 footers because there would be too much relative motion between the ends of the cars. |
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| (1507609) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Tue Mar 19 23:23:10 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Mar 19 21:57:04 2019. I'm in the minority that likes the R44 and especially R46 and even R68. I think they ride lovely down the line like rail cars instead of subway cars. |
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| (1507615) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Wed Mar 20 00:35:26 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by Catfish 44 on Tue Mar 19 23:23:10 2019. They are the only ones the ride decently, which is something considering their age. The new ones also jerk when coming to a stop, while the older 75' cars do not. |
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| (1507617) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Rainman89 on Wed Mar 20 00:52:39 2019, in response to Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by mack c-49 on Tue Mar 19 21:14:45 2019. I use to like the 75 foot cars especially the seating setup but if u in long express ride from 125 street to 59 street and there a fight or getting harass in the train u are trap until next stop to go to next cars |
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| (1507618) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Wed Mar 20 01:21:48 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by Rainman89 on Wed Mar 20 00:52:39 2019. yeah, that trip takes far too long, it's only 3 miles. A Yugo on the same rails could do it in 3 minutes, if you could find a Yugo that still runs. |
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| (1507619) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Mar 20 01:35:18 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by Catfish 44 on Tue Mar 19 23:23:10 2019. You're not in the minority. My buddy who is not even 1% railfan prefers the R46 (aka "those cars on the A and R") and says they're the best the subway has.As a passenger I prefer the R46 as well. Once the R32 are gone, they will become my favorite car class. |
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| (1507620) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Mar 20 06:41:06 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Mar 20 01:35:18 2019. I also like the R-46 (though the R-44s were getting kind of ratty towards the end, even though they retained their windscreens(?) next to the doors). My reasons are mainly personal and nostalgic, but they do have more style than later cars, mainly because later cars dropped it for practical reasons. |
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| (1507621) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Mar 20 07:13:18 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by 3-9 on Wed Mar 20 06:41:06 2019. With the blue stripe, I thought the R44/46 looked great. Without it, not so much. And I agree that the R44s looked as worn out as it turned out they were, during their last years.The R44s on the SIR held up better, due to less punishing use. But now, with the mismatched seats, they're also looking a bit tired. |
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| (1507622) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Mar 20 07:16:37 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by Catfish 44 on Tue Mar 19 23:23:10 2019. I believe the R44/46s were intended to ride that way- and be as similar as possible to the Metropolitans and Cosmopolitans, which were their contemporaries.As for the R68/68As, I have no theory about their ride. |
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| (1507637) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Mar 20 11:03:36 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Mar 20 07:16:37 2019. Seeing as they serve Coney Island I am sure that they were intended to ride like the Cyclone. That they have achieved.ROARING |
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| (1507649) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by rbseabeach on Wed Mar 20 12:14:19 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Mar 20 07:13:18 2019. agreed 100%i loved the blue stripe and the raccoon style front bonnet. i remember going inside the motorman's cab of the 1976 stars and stripe edition @ the NYC transit museum in 1976!! I do not like the r-68 they look like tin cans |
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| (1507674) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Wed Mar 20 17:17:16 2019, in response to Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by mack c-49 on Tue Mar 19 21:14:45 2019. Spoiler Alert!NO,no,no! Let's go with the 67 ft R/110B Now there was a functional sized car. But the middle car needed to be powered. Loved the seating arraingemnt. |
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| (1507679) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Mar 20 18:46:53 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by Avid Reader on Wed Mar 20 17:17:16 2019. That would have been the smart move when ordering the R44s. 67Ft cars could have been used anywhere on the B division. This would mean complete interchangability on any line. Makes me wonder if whoever ordered the R44s & approved the 75ft length knew that they could not run on the BMT eastern division. It would come as no suprise to me if they did not. |
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| (1507680) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Mar 20 18:47:40 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 19 22:05:53 2019. Due to the necessity for a longer end excess on 75 ft cars due to truck placement for clearance purposes, 75 ft cars can’t be made open gangway on the NYCTS. |
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| (1507681) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Mar 20 18:50:07 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by VictorM on Tue Mar 19 23:21:05 2019. Not to mention the longer end excess which I referred to in another post. |
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| (1507683) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Wed Mar 20 18:54:41 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Mar 20 01:35:18 2019. Agreed |
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| (1507684) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Wed Mar 20 18:55:52 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Mar 20 07:16:37 2019. I would imagine they were intended to ride a certain way. Maybe their longer wheelbase helps. |
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| (1507685) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Wed Mar 20 18:57:25 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by rbseabeach on Wed Mar 20 12:14:19 2019. They were better looking when they were new. |
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| (1507686) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 20 19:04:41 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by randyo on Wed Mar 20 18:47:40 2019. Why not? This is the same reason end doors were always locked on 75’ cars? |
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| (1507689) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Mar 20 19:19:25 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 20 19:04:41 2019. The increased end excess is precisely the reason that the end doors are kept locked on the 75 ft cars. On certain curves and switches, the end doors pass out of sight of each other from one car to another so an open gangway would be impossible in such situations. The switch N/O Pacific St is so sharp that when looking out of the rear end door window of one of the forward cars, yo can actually see past the SIDE of the next car. |
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| (1507690) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by VictorM on Wed Mar 20 19:55:53 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by randyo on Wed Mar 20 19:19:25 2019. I think they somewhat realigned the crossover switch N/O Pacific St going from F1 to F3 so that it isn't as severe as it once was. I looked out the end doors on both southbound R44 and R68's using the crossover due to G.O.'s and while my view was blocked by the bulkhead of the next car, I couldn't see down the side. |
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| (1507691) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Mar 20 20:13:03 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by VictorM on Wed Mar 20 19:55:53 2019. Well I was definitely able to see down the side of an R-68 and AFAIK, that switch has not been modified since the last time I was a M/M in 1970. |
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| (1507692) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by VictorM on Wed Mar 20 20:14:21 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by VictorM on Wed Mar 20 19:55:53 2019. Typo: it should be R46's, not R44's. |
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| (1507700) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Wed Mar 20 22:30:48 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by Avid Reader on Wed Mar 20 17:17:16 2019. So you could make up a 600 ft train with 9 cars, having more passenger capacity than 10x60 ft with one entire car's worth of maintenance deleted."I'm sorry sir, that would make sense, so we're never going to do it." |
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| (1507708) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by TRAIN DUDE on Thu Mar 21 07:37:04 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Mar 20 07:16:37 2019. The 75 foot cars have an axle load that is about 3800 Lbs greater, nearly 20% more than the 60' cars of the same era. That gave the cars a more stable ride. In addition, having 8 group switch boxes as opposed to 10 on a train of 60' cars, there was less mismatch in acceleration rates which means less bucking between cars. |
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| (1507712) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 21 09:06:34 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by TRAIN DUDE on Thu Mar 21 07:37:04 2019. On the subject of axle load vs. ride quality, do you think the R16 rode better than the R32, given they had the same truck ? |
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| (1507716) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by mack c-49 on Thu Mar 21 09:46:17 2019, in response to Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by mack c-49 on Tue Mar 19 21:14:45 2019. If the system moves to open gangway trains, that would be an enormous step in a new direction just as some measure of system-wide uniformity is emerging. Not to say that a new direction is necessarily bad -- the R44 was a significant new direction in its day -- but I have a hard time imagining the logistics of merging open trains into the existing system. The R44 and R46 introduced a level of style in contrast to the otherwise basic and utilitarian designs which had prevailed since the 1930s. The return to 60-foot cars and longitudinal bench seating was definitely an aesthetic step backwards despite the advanced technology of the newer cars. It's too bad the system could not merge advanced technology with the more railroad-like ambiance of the 75-footers |
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| (1507728) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by rbseabeach on Thu Mar 21 11:26:41 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by Catfish 44 on Wed Mar 20 18:57:25 2019. true i remember riding them on the D |
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| (1507729) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 21 11:29:55 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by mack c-49 on Thu Mar 21 09:46:17 2019. Staten Islanders will get bowling alley seats for the first time. They have always had a more suburban car. The interior of the first MU's was more like an MP54. They will not like that. |
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| (1507731) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by TRAIN DUDE on Thu Mar 21 11:47:00 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 21 09:06:34 2019. I worked on both but rarely rode the R-16s to speak on the relatively ride quality. There are, as I mentioned, other components to ride quality including truck/shock arrangement, propulsion packages and even draft gear. Off hand I also can't recall the axle loading relative to both car classes but have the data in my train room. |
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| (1507734) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Mar 21 12:20:44 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by randyo on Wed Mar 20 18:47:40 2019. In order to make open end passageways work the trucks need to be as close to the end of the cars as possible, ideally both cars sharing the same truck.Putting the trucks that close to the end s of 75' cars would mean the middles would overhang so much on the curves as to take out the right of way and smash in the middle of the cars as well. ROAR |
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| (1507752) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 21 14:39:21 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by Steamdriven on Wed Mar 20 22:30:48 2019. Eastern Division trains would have to be 7 cars, 3 and 4 car sets, and have consist that are about 11 feet shorter. |
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| (1507759) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Mar 21 15:28:24 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 21 14:39:21 2019. I thought the Eastern Division, even not including the rebuilt Montague Tunnel, had curves a 75 foot car couldn't make it around without hitting its sides on something. |
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| (1507765) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Thu Mar 21 17:30:18 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 21 14:39:21 2019. Hm. The 11 feet would be right about the space gained by having 7 cars instead of 8. You'd still have the maintenance savings. |
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| (1507769) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Thu Mar 21 17:54:57 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by mack c-49 on Thu Mar 21 09:46:17 2019. Yeah, what he said.The R110/B was all that but made by Bombardier. A plague ridden manufacture. Another manufacture of could/should have produced a one-size-fits-all type of car for all B-Division use. I'm just sayin'. |
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| (1507772) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Mar 21 18:05:42 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Mar 21 12:20:44 2019. That’s pretty much the point I was trying to make. I wonder if the trucks on the R-211 open gangway cars will have to be placed a little closer to the car ends creating additional clearance issues. |
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| (1507781) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Mar 21 19:25:11 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by Avid Reader on Thu Mar 21 17:54:57 2019. I agree, but it wasn't up to the manufacturer, it was up to the bonehead at the MTA that placed the 75' length order in the first place. |
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| (1507789) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Mar 21 21:58:47 2019, in response to Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by mack c-49 on Tue Mar 19 21:14:45 2019. Any car can be a 75 foot car if you have 38 passengers on board and one has a missing foot. |
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| (1507790) | |
For Joe V. was: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Train Dude on Thu Mar 21 22:11:15 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by TRAIN DUDE on Thu Mar 21 11:47:00 2019. According to my documents, the R-16 weighed in at 85,000 Lbs while the R-32 weighed in @ 69,000 Lbs (MG car) and 70,000 Lbs for the Compressor car. So you are also looking at about a 4000 Lb axle load difference between the 16s and the 32s. |
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| (1507791) | |
Re: For Joe V. was: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Thu Mar 21 22:30:39 2019, in response to For Joe V. was: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by Train Dude on Thu Mar 21 22:11:15 2019. hm. 8 people in a minivan is about 600# of vehicle per person, all seated and facing forward, in adult size seats. The same ratio gives 125 bodies packed into a subway car, with armpits and other parts jammed at the faces of seated passengers.Subway car technology needs a refresh. |
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| (1507792) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu Mar 21 22:57:29 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 21 11:29:55 2019. Is that for sure? The R211SI could have R16 style seating... |
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| (1507794) | |
Re: For Joe V. was: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by TRAIN DUDE on Thu Mar 21 23:22:11 2019, in response to Re: For Joe V. was: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by Steamdriven on Thu Mar 21 22:30:39 2019. I believe that the crush load of a 60' NYCT car was 280 persons. I'm not sure how that number translates into your figures. |
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| (1507797) | |
Re: For Joe V. was: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Thu Mar 21 23:57:49 2019, in response to Re: For Joe V. was: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by TRAIN DUDE on Thu Mar 21 23:22:11 2019. 280 people in a 70,000# subway car is ... eewwww.It's 250# of vehicle per person, but otherwise not comparable to riding seated in an auto. At crush load you can call it efficient, if you consider the passengers as inanimate objects to be packed and shipped. You could put 30 or 40 people standing into a tall-roof Sprinter or Ford Transit van without seats leaving a center lane clear and be around max GVWR, it would be illegal of course. Crush loaded, who knows. |
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| (1507798) | |
Re: For Joe V. was: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Mar 22 00:47:23 2019, in response to Re: For Joe V. was: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by Steamdriven on Thu Mar 21 23:57:49 2019. 2,800 people per train? How much current would that draw? |
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| (1507811) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by MorningsideHeightsM100 on Fri Mar 22 09:13:08 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by AlM on Thu Mar 21 15:28:24 2019. That wasn't the case before the rebuild, as R trains operated R-46s through that tunnel for years.After the rebuild -- I haven't travelled through it since. |
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Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Mar 22 10:15:36 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by Catfish 44 on Wed Mar 20 18:57:25 2019. Agree. |
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| (1507815) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Mar 22 10:21:06 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by randyo on Thu Mar 21 18:05:42 2019. Yes, but being 60' cars tthey will not have a wide a belly.ROAR |
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