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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Jan 3 18:43:32 2019, in response to Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by MTA T on Thu Jan 3 13:03:20 2019.

Pessimistic about this. And Prince Andrew DOES run the MTA. The chairman (in this case an acting one) is appointed by him. The chairman (or acting one) serves at the pleasure of the governor. And doesn't he appoint several board members?

Single tracking on weekends: good luck. Ridership is heavy, hence the tight headways. Single tracking between Bedford & Third will mean a 24 minute headway. Station dwell time will be high due to heavy riding/taking extra time for passengers to enter/exit the train at stations.

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(1498621)

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by randyo on Thu Jan 3 18:56:11 2019, in response to Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by MTA T on Thu Jan 3 13:03:20 2019.

OK as long as the racking system doesn't result in the same kind of clearance problems that the Montague tube has.

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(1498623)

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu Jan 3 19:02:22 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by FtgreeneG on Thu Jan 3 15:28:43 2019.

Closing both directions of an island platform station makes sense.

Closing both directions of a side platform station makes little sense.

Closing both directions of a side platform station with separate street entrances for each direction makes no sense at all (23rd/6th!).

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by Chicago44 on Thu Jan 3 19:06:39 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu Jan 3 19:02:22 2019.

Just read that additional subway service will still be added to the G train from reading the Press Release but with the G train still getting added service with the L train shutdown cancelled, I wonder & again I wonder IF there still might be plans to finally restore the Brooklyn F train express anytime in 2019 or beyond.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu Jan 3 19:07:48 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Jan 3 18:43:32 2019.

I expect a full closure on weekends rather than single tracking, simply because the weekend L cannot be run at 20+ minute headways, period. It's at 6-8 minutes on Saturdays now as it is!

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by r33/r36 mainline on Thu Jan 3 19:25:07 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu Jan 3 19:07:48 2019.

When they have 8 min headways on weekends whenever the line is cut back to Union Square be having rush hour type crowding.

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(1498632)

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jan 3 19:39:15 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Jan 3 18:43:32 2019.

Single tracking between Bedford & Third will mean a 24 minute headway.

Today's supplemented schedule shows running time from Lorimer to Union Sq is 7.5 minutes. The running time between Union Sq and Lorimer is 7 minutes. That's a total of 14.5 minutes. This means a 15 minute headway is possible, in the most wasteful way possible. However, infilling short turns at 1st Ave (from 8th Ave) and Bedford (from Rockaway Pky) mean that shorter intraborough headways are possible.

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(1498639)

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Jan 3 19:50:07 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Thu Jan 3 19:25:07 2019.

What you could perhaps do is on weekends have the kind of shuttle train I had suggested initially for all times in Manhattan between 1st and 8th Avenues, using a combined total of three, four-car units with an extra unit brought along for a spare (since such can go back as four trains early Monday).

That solves any potential political problems. If you can't run the (L) at all on weekends into Manhattan.

Another alternative is do the above in addition to trains actually coming into Manhattan with two four-car sets that serve in-between the full-length trains that use the tunnel to at least cut down on 14th Street traffic and have on the Brooklyn side on weekends have only every other or every third train (depending on time of day) operate through to Manhattan.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Jan 3 19:51:18 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jan 3 19:39:15 2019.

And that is exactly what I would do.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by AlM on Thu Jan 3 19:59:46 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jan 3 19:39:15 2019.

shorter intraborough headways are possible

But not needed. The most crowded segment of the L is 1 Ave to Bedford. Intraborough trains serve no purpose.






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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by Sand Box John on Thu Jan 3 20:11:18 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by AlM on Thu Jan 3 16:45:13 2019.

That's fine as long as the new imaginative approach actually works.

There's nothing new or imaginative to the alternative method to be used.

Instead of demolishing and replacing conduits and cables they are simply going to relocate the cables in cable trays attached to the tunnel walls. None of cables in WMATA's tunnels and for that matter systems built during and after the second half of the last century have their tunnel cables in conduits. The cables are surface mounted on the tunnel walls.

John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jan 3 20:12:22 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by AlM on Thu Jan 3 19:59:46 2019.

Intraborough trains serve no purpose.

Rather than a 2 seat ride from upper Manhattan, a 4 seat ride via the E/7->G->L would be possible to get to Bedford Ave.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by AlM on Thu Jan 3 20:36:22 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by Sand Box John on Thu Jan 3 20:11:18 2019.

There's nothing new or imaginative to the alternative method to be used.

So you're saying the MTA collectively is just totally incompetent for not having thought of this?


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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by AlM on Thu Jan 3 20:37:14 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jan 3 20:12:22 2019.

Huh?


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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by Nilet on Thu Jan 3 21:10:18 2019, in response to Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by MTA T on Thu Jan 3 13:03:20 2019.

So if this new system works, why hasn't anyone thought of it by now? They had 7 years to prepare. The contracts are already set. Work has already been done preparing alternative routes. Even presuming this new system works (and there's no obvious reason to think it won't), that they didn't come up with it before now is a major failure on Cuomo's part and on the MTA's part.

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Fate Of The R32s?

Posted by Nilet on Thu Jan 3 21:10:20 2019, in response to Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by MTA T on Thu Jan 3 13:03:20 2019.

Key question: With the L shutdown cancelled, will I need to hurry out and railfan the R32s before they get retired?

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by Nilet on Thu Jan 3 21:10:25 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu Jan 3 19:07:48 2019.

They've had weekend single-tracking before. Usually with a shuttle running from Bedford to Union Square, bypassing 3rd.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by Nilet on Thu Jan 3 21:10:29 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by italianstallion on Thu Jan 3 16:07:12 2019.

The work they're proposing doesn't exactly sound like rocket science. If an extensive survey of the tunnel was conducted in advance, in anticipation of a full closure, then evaluating this plan in a few weeks doesn't sound impossible.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by Nilet on Thu Jan 3 21:10:32 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Jan 3 14:38:35 2019.

I doubt anyone will primary Tump, but I'm still convinced Cuomo has presidential ambitions for 2020.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by Nilet on Thu Jan 3 21:10:37 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by AlM on Thu Jan 3 13:18:54 2019.

They estimate 15-20 months for the project.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by Nilet on Thu Jan 3 21:10:40 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jan 3 14:28:36 2019.

Sounds great now, but the pain would have been worth it.

How is 15 months of complete shutdown preferable to 15-20 months of partial night and weekend shutdowns? According to the article, they found a better way of repairing the tunneló do you have any evidence that it won't work or will produce inferior results?


Ridiculous.
Politics.


On the contrary. Finding a solution to rebuild major infrastructure with relatively reduced headache is a rare example of how politics is supposed to work.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Thu Jan 3 21:55:11 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by Nilet on Thu Jan 3 21:10:18 2019.

Exactly, and that's all I was trying to say.
If this is so "simple", why wasn't this done way sooner, it's not like it wasn't studied to death prior

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Jan 3 21:57:54 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Thu Jan 3 21:55:11 2019.

That was before Cuomo realized such a shutdown would hurt his bid to become President in 2020.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Jan 3 22:11:24 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Jan 3 21:57:54 2019.

I'll say a prayer for you tonight before I go to bed.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by zac on Thu Jan 3 22:37:32 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by AlM on Thu Jan 3 20:36:22 2019.

I'd say yes. Why replace 100 year old technology with 100 year old technology? That was the plan.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by zac on Thu Jan 3 22:41:50 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by Nilet on Thu Jan 3 21:10:18 2019.

Why? Because the MTAs answer to everything is that we have to do it the same way we've always done it. That nobody thought they could improve this is a total failure on the MTA. They would do the whole project and then decide they need to update it. Would you wire your house to the 1920 standards? Would you use vacuum tubes in your TV? Would you use a 1920 PC? (of course not, they weren't invented yet.) But that's the MTA mentality.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 3 22:46:53 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Jan 3 21:57:54 2019.

Bless your heart.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Jan 3 23:00:16 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Jan 3 22:11:24 2019.

Well, I'm far from the only one who thinks this is a precursor to a Presidential bid announcement.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Jan 3 23:03:45 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by zac on Thu Jan 3 22:41:50 2019.

And that might be something we overlooked. Maybe Byford found a better (and cheaper and less disruptive way) to do this.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by 3-9 on Thu Jan 3 23:14:01 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by randyo on Thu Jan 3 18:56:11 2019.

That's what I was thinking. Just how much space is this racking system going to take inside the tunnel? I have a feeling that, even if there are no train clearance issues, it will take space away from track workers and the like.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by R30A on Thu Jan 3 23:15:25 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 3 22:46:53 2019.

I'm not sure he is wrong.

Cuomo may well be promising the impossible for political reasons.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by R30A on Thu Jan 3 23:16:17 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by R30A on Thu Jan 3 23:15:25 2019.

I mean, yes, Wally's idea is absolutely batshit crazy, but so is Andrew Cuomo.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Jan 3 23:53:28 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by 3-9 on Thu Jan 3 23:14:01 2019.

In general, the insulation thickness for the same or greater voltage/amperage usage has decreased in thickness over the decades. That said, even while requiring "plenum grade" or similar low toxicity combustion producing materials, the vartious wires, cables do not need as much volume as what they are replacing. that said, they should not be a clearance issue IF carefully installed. When all of the wiring is replaced, and in the bargain much brighter LED tubes for future maintenance convenience, proably the old crumbling'bench' should be removed and replaced with new concrete to maintain the integrity of the tunnels.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by ModelRider on Fri Jan 4 00:02:06 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by zac on Thu Jan 3 22:41:50 2019.

Agreed, The Times mentions that the new plan is the same thing used in metro systems around the world. I'm not sure what the downside is to just mounting the cables on the wall.



Looks like there is enough room on one side. What's in those catwalks anyway?

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by Nilet on Fri Jan 4 00:08:53 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Jan 3 21:57:54 2019.

While I'm sure Cuomo wants to run for president, it's more than a stretch to think that he was totally planning to shut down the tunnel, then decided that it would hurt his presidential bid, and then sought out an alternative.

The more likely order of events was that Cuomo figured he'd hype his (fake) infrastructure cred to paper over his complete and utter lack of fitness to be president, with the recently-reopened tunnel (in 2020) being just one of many items in that folder, but then he pulled his head out of his ass for his annual breath of fresh air and in that moment learned that there was a better way to fix the tunnel and pushed for it.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Jan 4 00:53:48 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by ModelRider on Fri Jan 4 00:02:06 2019.

Who's colonostomy is that?

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Jan 4 00:54:36 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Jan 3 23:00:16 2019.

The L train?

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by 3-9 on Fri Jan 4 01:04:45 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Jan 3 23:53:28 2019.

But doesn't it seem like the biggest difference is that Cuomo's plan doesn't entail removing the old cables? With the original plan, the MTA can still use the latest materials, it just won't be hung on wall racks.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Jan 4 01:46:25 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Jan 3 23:00:16 2019.

But outside NYC, do you think anyone cares about the L train?

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Re: Fate Of The R32s?

Posted by MTA T on Fri Jan 4 01:54:22 2019, in response to Fate Of The R32s?, posted by Nilet on Thu Jan 3 21:10:20 2019.

No

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by randyo on Fri Jan 4 03:12:52 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Jan 3 18:43:32 2019.

Although weekend traffic is heavy on the L Line, it would be easier for weekend patrons to find alternative ways into Manhattan when traffic isnít as heavy on alternate routes like the G, E or Willy B than it is for weekday passengers to try to fit themselves in crush loaded trains on other lines. Additionally, weekend ridership, while important, is discretionary since it is not as necessary for passengers to seek entertainment in Manhattan as it is for them to get to places of employment during the week. It could also prove to be a blessing in disguise for entertainment venues in Williamsburg since they could provide similar quality entertainment within the neighborhood increasing their revenue. It might even spur the opening of additional night spots within the neighborhood as well.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by randyo on Fri Jan 4 03:35:07 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by zac on Thu Jan 3 22:41:50 2019.

Even the pre MTA NYCTA and B of T before that were not that really progressive in their thinking. While the BMT had high performance rapid transit cars in the form of the Multis and the Bluebird which used the PCC technology that was adopted by other major cities like Chicago and Boston, the B of T chose to remain in the stone age by ordering the R-9s constructed of heavyweight steel rather than the stainless steel design for the R-9s that was proposed by Budd. From what I have heard, mini lever interlocking machines were available almost from the opening of the IND in 1932, yet the B of T continued to equip its towers with the old fashioned mechanical interlocking machines as late as 1945 when Bway/ENY station opened. Instead of allowing the BMT management to continue its R&D of rolling stock the B of T delayed progress to the point that even when the country returned to normal after WWII, the B of T continued to order out of date equipment. With apologies to those who love the R-10s, they were out of date even before they were ordered. The design of the IRTís R-15s which could have been adapted to IND specs was far superior with its axiflow fans and inside cab door operation. Unlike other cities where the transit agencies continued the R&D started by the privates they took over, the B of T and its successor agencies continued to keep the NYCTS in a relative stone age until relatively recently and even then it almost took an act of God (for those who believe) to bring the MTAís planners into the modern age.

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Re: Fate Of The R32s?

Posted by randyo on Fri Jan 4 03:37:58 2019, in response to Fate Of The R32s?, posted by Nilet on Thu Jan 3 21:10:20 2019.

I somehow suspect that the R-32s will outlast the R-42s. Itís almost like history repeating itself looking back to the time when the newest of the BMT prewar cars staring with the Multis. then the D types were scrapped first leaving the oldest cars the ABs around the longest.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by 3-9 on Fri Jan 4 04:17:07 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by randyo on Fri Jan 4 03:12:52 2019.

Actually, isn't a lot of the traffic from people going to and from entertainmanet venues in Williamsburg? At least, it is/was true of L service at night.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jan 4 06:37:58 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Jan 4 01:46:25 2019.

This is about looking to get votes in New York, New Jersey and Connecticut. Big concern of some was likely ripple effects on traffic if 14th Street was closed to vehicles other than buses.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jan 4 06:42:14 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by R30A on Thu Jan 3 23:16:17 2019.

It may be batshit, but my experiences have shown me pols will go the batshit route to appease voters (and it appears to some in the case of Cuomo, donors) who demanded it be done in such a matter.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jan 4 06:42:34 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jan 4 06:42:14 2019.

manner*

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Jan 4 06:44:01 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by AlM on Thu Jan 3 15:23:31 2019.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/01/03/nyregion/l-train-shutdown-changes.html

The original article had a link to the above.

I wonder how much additional crumbling of the bench walls those sensors will detect regularly.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jan 4 06:45:21 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by Nilet on Fri Jan 4 00:08:53 2019.

Actually, quite a few seem to feel from what I've read elsewhere his donors would not fund a Presidential bid unless he did this.

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Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Jan 4 07:07:06 2019, in response to Re: Full Shutdown of L Train to Be Halted by Cuomo, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jan 4 06:37:58 2019.

And again, outside NYC are do you think anyone cares?

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