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| Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) (1495551) | |
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| (1496149) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Dec 16 16:23:11 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by Express Rider on Sun Dec 16 03:32:45 2018. Kinda like a 76th St North situation!:) |
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| (1496157) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Sun Dec 16 17:08:25 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by randyo on Sun Dec 16 16:11:00 2018. FYI: I DO REMEMBER READING THAT THE J TRAIN WAS SUPPOSED TO GO TO 168ST[MERRICK RD.]I,VE POSTED ON THIS ON SEVERAL OCCASSIONS.AT THE EMERGENCY EXIT WHERE THE J ENTERS THE TUNNEL SUTPHIN BLVD.BOUND THERE IS A SIGN STATING "TO 168ST" I,VE BEEN IN THERE SEVERAL TIMES[OF COURSE]THIS EXIT LEADS INTO THE LIRR`S MATERIAL YARD IN RICHMOND HILL. |
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| (1496158) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) |
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Posted by VictorM on Sun Dec 16 17:31:24 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by randyo on Sun Dec 16 16:15:11 2018. Here's a map from the MTA's 1968 Program for Action showing the proposed extension of the J line to Hollis as part of what would have been Phase 2 of the Archer Av project: (from Joe Korner's site) |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (1496176) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Dec 16 19:58:45 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by VictorM on Sun Dec 16 17:31:24 2018. Could have been done very easily if they simply extended the El from 168th Street to Hollis.What streets would they have used off the Atlantic Branch to JFK ? I never knew about that LIR Branch |
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| (1496180) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) |
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Posted by FarRock on Sun Dec 16 20:31:20 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by randyo on Thu Dec 13 18:12:47 2018. With the diamond provision in the back there had to be some type of idea. Can't have a crossover planned without at least another 600 feet of tunnel planned |
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| (1496187) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Dec 16 22:09:05 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by Joe V on Sun Dec 16 19:58:45 2018. "Could have been done very easily if they simply extended the El from 168th Street to Hollis."True, but that proposal wasn't even considered. With the Jamaica Ave business district & local real estate interests salivating at the idea of the El going away, you'd have better luck selling Ice to Eskimos or sand to the Arabs in getting the Jamaica El staying put in the first place, no less extending it. |
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| (1496195) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon Dec 17 01:26:03 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by Express Rider on Sun Dec 16 03:27:55 2018. 1968 . |
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| (1496196) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) |
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Posted by VictorM on Mon Dec 17 06:03:19 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by Joe V on Sun Dec 16 19:58:45 2018. They could have used Baisley Blvd to branch off the Atlantic Branch to JFK. |
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| (1496198) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Dec 17 07:31:32 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by Ian Lennon on Fri Dec 14 14:09:58 2018. I've heard that as well- a guy named Yunich. But I've also read on nycsubway.org that the MTA only reluctantly agreed to the demolition, and that they even toyed with re-opening the stations that closed in 1977 (obviously, while the stations were still intact).This being NY, I am willing to believe 2 completely contradictory stories. |
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| (1496199) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Dec 17 07:37:41 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by Edwards! on Sat Dec 15 18:54:33 2018. I also think that a lot of money was wasted on the huge stations on Archer as well as on the SAS. If at all possible, the stations shoulda been built close to the surface, like 8th and Prince. Might not have seemed so grand on Day 1, but would have been easier/cheaper to build- and to maintain in the years to come.Maybe Roosevelt Island really does need to be as deep as it is deep, as it's basically on the level of the riverbed. But otherwise, all the other stations built in the MTA era seem overdone to me. |
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| (1496205) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Dec 17 08:15:11 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by VictorM on Sun Dec 16 17:31:24 2018. JFK's RWY 31L looks really really long in the context of this map! |
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| (1496211) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) |
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Posted by MorningsideHeightsM100 on Mon Dec 17 09:38:51 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Dec 17 08:15:11 2018. Because it's ~ 2 miles long, according to the latest approach plate.From FlightAware |
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| (1496213) | |
[PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Mon Dec 17 10:27:28 2018, in response to [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by Bill Newkirk on Wed Dec 12 10:59:07 2018.  
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| (1496216) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Mon Dec 17 11:00:43 2018, in response to [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In, posted by Bill Newkirk on Mon Dec 17 10:27:28 2018. Excellent photos!!! Thanks for posting and sharing this, Bill!-William A. Padron ["160th St.'] |
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| (1496225) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Mon Dec 17 14:06:58 2018, in response to [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In, posted by Bill Newkirk on Mon Dec 17 10:27:28 2018. Nice! |
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| (1496227) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In |
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Posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Mon Dec 17 14:23:37 2018, in response to [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In, posted by Bill Newkirk on Mon Dec 17 10:27:28 2018. nice photos |
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| (1496228) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 17 14:42:06 2018, in response to [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In, posted by Bill Newkirk on Mon Dec 17 10:27:28 2018. Those R42's were so sparkly and new looking back then after their refurbishment. We were jelous on the M line, as we got all the crap once the J got the Archer extension opened. The M because the stepchild line. How times have changed, as now the M is more premiere because of the 6th Ave routing it has now. |
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| (1496229) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In |
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Posted by Dave on Mon Dec 17 14:42:07 2018, in response to [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In, posted by Bill Newkirk on Mon Dec 17 10:27:28 2018. Two thumbs up! |
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| (1496233) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Dec 17 15:58:39 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by TUNNELRAT on Sun Dec 16 17:08:25 2018. That part my be accurate since it didn’t seem logical to me that the replacement line would not go as far as the line it was replacing, but I still don’t recall seeing any printed plans for any such extension. |
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| (1496234) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Dec 17 16:11:41 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by FarRock on Sun Dec 16 20:31:20 2018. The extra tunnel space can be used for layups. |
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| (1496239) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) |
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Posted by chud1 on Mon Dec 17 16:39:14 2018, in response to [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by Bill Newkirk on Wed Dec 12 10:59:07 2018. 5 drooling stars out of 5 drooling stars for these pictures.chud1. :)..... |
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| (1496254) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 17 20:52:35 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by VictorM on Thu Dec 13 04:58:59 2018. Yes, that's what I meant. They kept that awkward track arrangement between 111th and 121st for nearly 2.5 years. |
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| (1496255) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 17 20:56:09 2018, in response to [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In, posted by Bill Newkirk on Mon Dec 17 10:27:28 2018. My first ride in was about 8 hours later on an R30. The R30's were pulled from the J line a few weeks later. |
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| (1496256) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 17 20:58:25 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 17 14:42:06 2018. The M got relatively better equipment when it was the Brighton local. Greater chance of an R42 or an R32 than the J before 1986. I never saw an R16 on the M until it was shifted over to the West End line. |
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| (1496257) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Dec 17 21:01:09 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 17 20:58:25 2018. Yes. After Archer. The J did better. The M lost Brighton the year earlier also, 1987 |
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| (1496258) | |
Re: Question: Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 17 21:02:22 2018, in response to Re: Question: Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by VictorM on Thu Dec 13 04:51:17 2018. Even though they are all the same color (green) now, you can easily tell new from old. The new ones are held together with bolts, the old structure uses rivets. |
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| (1496259) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Dec 17 21:09:08 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 12 19:34:54 2018. I do remember the old Metrolitan Ave station off in the distance when the new alignment opened in 1988.it looked so sad sitting there abandoned. |
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| (1496260) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Dec 17 21:11:32 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 17 20:56:09 2018. I've ridden a red R30 into Archer. But only once. I don't think I ever saw a graffiti r30 on the J again once Archer opened. |
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| (1496261) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 17 21:12:11 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Dec 17 21:09:08 2018. When I did my "exploration" in 1987 it was as sad on the platform and in the mezzanines as it looked from the street. |
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| (1496262) | |
Re: Question: Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Dec 17 21:13:49 2018, in response to Re: Question: Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 17 21:02:22 2018. Why did they go back to green for the els? I think the beige color looked much better and was lighter for the street below.I remember the old Jamaica el 2as green.but in the 80s most els became beige. |
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| (1496263) | |
Re: Question: Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Dec 17 21:15:57 2018, in response to Re: Question: Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Dec 17 21:13:49 2018. I mean the old abandoned part of the Jamaica el. |
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| (1496266) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 17 21:20:23 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by VictorM on Sun Dec 16 17:31:24 2018. Still don't understand how they planned to squeeze Far Rock, Long Beach, West Hempstead, Babylon and all those diesels onto the Montauk branch. LIRR needs the Atlantic branch. A better plan would have been to build an extension between the Montauk branch and Dunkirk St to Linden Blvd. using that MOW/freight area. |
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| (1496267) | |
Re: Question: Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 17 21:28:21 2018, in response to Re: Question: Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Dec 17 21:13:49 2018.  In 2011-2012 the whole structure was painted this color. |
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| (1496268) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Dec 17 21:31:23 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 17 21:20:23 2018. They would have made the South Shore like the Main Line, full of cattle cars. They would have made it work, but it would have been miserable. If they wanted to build a tunnel underneath the LIRR RoW, maybe that could have worked. |
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| (1496269) | |
Re: Question: Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Dec 17 21:34:40 2018, in response to Re: Question: Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by VictorM on Thu Dec 13 04:51:17 2018. As an aside...when they rebuilt the Metro North Park Ave Viaduct, they used the original footings for the new structure. |
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| (1496271) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 17 21:44:47 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Dec 17 21:11:32 2018. Me neither. I think they were all banned after the opening. I did see them running on the J as late as that October. |
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| (1496273) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Dec 17 22:04:08 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 17 21:44:47 2018. And thy continued on the M for some time after too. I remember them well into the end of 1989 on the M. Y mid 1990, most were done however. |
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| (1496274) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Dec 17 22:04:34 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 17 21:44:47 2018. And thy continued on the M for some time after too. I remember them well into the end of 1989 on the M. By mid 1990, most were gone however. |
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| (1496275) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Dec 17 22:41:23 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Dec 17 22:04:34 2018. Bill from Maspeth and monorail were Train Operators on the M during that time period. |
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| (1496281) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) |
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Posted by VictorM on Tue Dec 18 01:17:08 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 17 21:20:23 2018. That map seems to indicate they were planning to build the subway extension alongside the Atlantic Branch, not in place of it. |
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| (1496282) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Dec 18 03:10:27 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 17 20:56:09 2018. When Archer opened, the orders were that only GOH equipment was tp be operated on the J/Z. That meant that a GOH R-30 was to be used rather than a clean but unrebuilt R-40M or 42 to supplement the GOH R-42s. |
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| (1496285) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In |
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Posted by BILLBKLYN on Tue Dec 18 04:55:00 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 17 20:56:09 2018. Mine was on a 30 also. |
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| (1496287) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In |
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Posted by b1bus on Tue Dec 18 05:30:13 2018, in response to [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In, posted by Bill Newkirk on Mon Dec 17 10:27:28 2018. I was on that train. Rode out on an E. That E was stopped for some reason, had to take a 7 back to the city at that hour. |
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| (1496288) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue Dec 18 06:50:26 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Dec 17 22:41:23 2018. I'm sure I was on their trains. |
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| (1496293) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Dec 18 07:49:20 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Dec 17 21:11:32 2018. The "dirty" R27/30 that were left running out of ENY were confined to the L. |
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| (1496294) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Dec 18 07:53:06 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by VictorM on Tue Dec 18 01:17:08 2018. I think the sloped embankment would have been squared off with the new tracks, possibly shift LIRR to its northern half of the ROW, much like CTA Lake Street Line sharing ROW with C&NW. |
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| (1496297) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In |
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Posted by rbseabeach on Tue Dec 18 09:01:29 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Dec 17 22:04:08 2018. 6/12/89 was the day that the last graffiti covered train was yanked from service. I think it was an R-30 C train...I remember the news footage. |
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| (1496299) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Tue Dec 18 09:13:52 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave - First (J) Train In, posted by randyo on Tue Dec 18 03:10:27 2018. But how many of them were clean prior to GOH? |
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| (1496308) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Tue Dec 18 10:58:55 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by VictorM on Tue Dec 18 01:17:08 2018. 1st plan was to take over the atlantic branch,STOOOOPID,2ND PLAN WAS TO RUN ALONGSIDE THE LIRR ON THE EAST SIDE OF THE ROW.THERE IS MORE THAN ENOUGH ROOM.THEY WANTED TO END IT IN SPRINGFIELD GARDENS,SPRINGFIELD BLVD TO BE EXACT.ANOTHER STOOOOPID PLAN.THIS IS AN AREA OF 1& 2 FAMILY HOMES,NO PARKING AT ALL.SHOULD HAVE THOUGHT TO EXTEND IT TO GREEN ACRES ON A LOOP TRACK.ON THE EAST SIDE OF THE LIRR ROW STARTING AT APX.LINDEN BLVD IS A LARGE WOODED AREA THAT EXTENDS TO APX.FARMERS BLVD.THIS WAS TO BE A YARD,REPAIR SHOPS-N- A CAR WASH FOR THE IND.EXTENSION.AT ONE TIME THIS WAS THE REPAIR SHOPS FOR BOTH OCEAN ELECTRIC TROLLEYS AND MP41`S.SOMEWHERE IN THIS JUNGLE IS A 1 TRACK WOODEN TRESTLE,BURNT OUT,THAT WE USED TO PLAY ON AS KIDS. |
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| (1496313) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el) |
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Posted by Q4 on Tue Dec 18 11:46:36 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Archer Ave. Subway Connection Construction (Jamaica el), posted by tunnelrat on Tue Dec 18 10:58:55 2018. I have seen a rendering, sketch or drawing of a map (I actually thought I saw it on this site) of the 2nd plan you described. I always wondered what in the past might have occupied the huge lot overgrown with weeds and trees (the forest you describe)on the northside of the Atlantic branch between Baisley Blvd and approximately Farmer's Blvd and why it wasn't turned into a park or developed. Passed that area all of the time going to and from high school or visiting friends in and near Rochdale Village. IIRC, the rendering that I am referring to showed a yard to be constructed in that area. Over the last 20 years a few houses were built near and adjacent to the northside of the Locust Manor Station (Rochdale Village)which was the very outer edge of this piece of land but there is still a huge area that has been untouched (at least it was the last time I was in the area and paid attention to it although that was a few years ago while).There was a factory (I believe it was Esquire Shoe Polish) along with a huge AT&T building on Merrick and a little northwest of Springfield Boulevard adjacent to the Atlantic Branch. Some of that property could have been used for parking if some of that land had been purchased. |
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