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| Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington (1458747) | |
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| (1459051) | |
Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Tue Dec 19 20:48:15 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington, posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Dec 19 15:22:06 2017. A certain amount of regulation is necessary for a free market to function, and a bit more is necessary for daily life to be manageable. One can look up "swill milk" and "Elixir Sulfanilimide (sp?)" as examples of what can happen with zero regulation.But that's not a knock on the free market; Adam Smith made it clear that both a legal and moral framework was necessary for his idea to work. A functioning free market is good for consumers and tough for producers who must compete against each other. Thus, they quickly attempt to form monopolies or cartels, e.g. OPEC. OPEC of course is not bound by US law, and can openly conspire to raise prices and limit production; that's the purpose of OPEC's existence. They're anti-free market, and there's nothing we can do about it. An excess of regulation can be used to promote large, established business and quietly freeze out competition; just make the regs onerous enough that one needs an entire department to manage the regulatory aspect of the biz (that's HR) and perhaps campaign contributions so that your HugeCo will have an ear in GovCo when some agency targets it. How is your self-started 100 person biz going to deal with that? You can't, and thus you'll never grow large enough to replace the flip-off service and indifferent quality provided by ChummyWithGovCo (which might be spelled Comcast ;-). That's corporatism, which is something we've been creeping towards for several decades. So, no regulation ---> free market replaced by multi-corp cartel Regulatory Runaway ---> free market replaced by gov/biz cartel |
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| (1459052) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by pragmatist on Tue Dec 19 20:50:42 2017, in response to Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Dec 19 20:42:51 2017. We don't know why yet. Way too early to make a judgement that is totally based on provable facts, and Washington State law. What any of us think means absolutely nothing. |
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Re: Amtrak Cascades 501 Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by R2ChinaTown on Tue Dec 19 20:59:40 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Cascades 501 Derailment in Washington, posted by Dutchrailnut on Tue Dec 19 20:00:10 2017. I don't know all the technicalities involved but from what I read, the PTC is in place on the line but the loco had not yet been equipped. That seems to at least make the frequency issue moot. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (1459054) | |
Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by R2ChinaTown on Tue Dec 19 21:02:47 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington, posted by R30A on Tue Dec 19 19:27:44 2017. The same was said about the Philly derailment. That appeared to be an issue of situational awareness. My gut feeling is that 2 qualified engineers should be required where PTC is not operational. |
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Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Dec 19 21:07:44 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington, posted by R2ChinaTown on Tue Dec 19 21:02:47 2017. Considering the number of people in the cab, I wouldn't be surprised if this was caused by distraction because of your proposed solution.(Not saying it is- Just that there have been wrecks with multiple qualified personnel in the cab distracting each other, and I believe such was the case with regards to staffing here) |
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| (1459056) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Tue Dec 19 21:11:20 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by pragmatist on Tue Dec 19 20:50:42 2017. Exactly. There's no way that someone who worked his way up to Engineer (not an easy job to get, as I understand it) would decide "F the event recorder, I'm going to try this 30 mph curve at 80 just for grins, while I'm also going to be the first person present at the scene of the crash".Assuming it was operator error, I'll go out on a limb and say they were distracted by having multiple people in the cab and pointing out features on a new route, then had some sort of a brain blatz and pictured themselves miles back from their actual position. I think if you must have a 30 mph curve in 80mph territory, either don't run trains without PTC, or superelevate the F out of it, super-tie the rails down and stick a flashing radar sign 1/2 mile either side the curve showing "Speed Limit Ahead XX, Your Speed YY". Combine a bit of last minute braking with curve super-banking and the 1 train out of 10,000 that fails to pre-brake will stay on the rails, with a story to tell. Also, the normal speed for the curve can be raised... unless it's an S curve, in which case buy some damn land. |
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Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by R2ChinaTown on Tue Dec 19 21:28:46 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington, posted by R30A on Tue Dec 19 21:07:44 2017. It would be interesting to see if there were others in the cab at the time. |
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| (1459059) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Dave on Tue Dec 19 21:54:14 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Steamdriven on Tue Dec 19 21:11:20 2017. How do you know there was anyone in the cab other than the engineer? |
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| (1459060) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Dec 19 22:17:01 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Dave on Tue Dec 19 21:54:14 2017. It has been mentioned in many articles so far. |
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Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by pragmatist on Tue Dec 19 22:17:57 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Dave on Tue Dec 19 21:54:14 2017. It was discussed on this evening's news as a possibility. However, I for one am going to wait for much more investigation before I speculate. |
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Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Tue Dec 19 22:36:19 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Dave on Tue Dec 19 21:54:14 2017. Reports, at least as I understood them, stated that there was a trainee and possibly one other railroad employee in the cab. Being a new route, that makes sense. It's possible I read more into the news statement than is warranted. |
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Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Tue Dec 19 23:08:53 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington, posted by R2ChinaTown on Tue Dec 19 21:28:46 2017. Apparently there was the rail equivalent of a DC-10 flight crew - the engineer, a conductor on a qualifying run, and a Siemens engineer (not the driving type).That said, I've seen documentary videos filmed in operating cabs at 80MPH speeds. The engineer always seems keenly focused in those... |
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Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 20 00:17:29 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington, posted by R30A on Tue Dec 19 19:24:52 2017. My understanding iis that the new engines were equipped. The glitch is that the full validation/testing hasn'tbeen done yet for the route. |
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| (1459075) | |
Re: Amtrak Cascades 501 Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 20 00:22:02 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Cascades 501 Derailment in Washington, posted by R2ChinaTown on Tue Dec 19 19:58:28 2017. So it is easier to get endless extensions than either do the work or cancel the program.And as to the money issue, ALL of the Class 1s are doing well and whether self insured or buying outside policies, having PTC certified and operating should be reflected in lower premiums/set asides, as the likelihood of payouts decreases. As to the frequencies, obviously that has been solved as there are islands of operational PTC. |
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Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Dec 20 00:23:02 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Steamdriven on Tue Dec 19 21:11:20 2017. Split the difference - have a 55 MPH speed for the last 1/4 mile leading to it. Isn't that what MNRR did as result of Spuyten-Duyvil, eliminate speed limit drops greater than 30 MPH? Or maybe that was the NTSB recommendation? |
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Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 20 00:24:39 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Dave on Tue Dec 19 21:54:14 2017. because the NTSB stated so n a briefing today. |
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Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Dave on Wed Dec 20 06:49:02 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by R30A on Tue Dec 19 22:17:01 2017. Hadn't seen that, thanks. |
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Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 20 06:52:16 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington, posted by R30A on Tue Dec 19 19:27:44 2017. This was not the case here. He had been on the route exactly 3 timers prior.Crews, Amtrak and Sounder, were not qualified until 2 weeks prior to opening. Maybe he was legally qualified, but from a practical standpoint, he hardly knew it. |
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| (1459084) | |
Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 20 06:56:24 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington, posted by R2ChinaTown on Tue Dec 19 21:28:46 2017. In 2013, a VIA Rail train from Niagara Falls to Toronto (not the Maple Leaf) has 3 engineers in the cab. They all missed an Approach signal to take a slow crossover onto an adjacent track. They took a 15MPH crossover at 67 MPH. It was quite a wreck. All of them were killed. |
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| (1459085) | |
Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 20 06:57:50 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington, posted by AlM on Tue Dec 19 20:04:31 2017. Of course, had common sense prevailed. This is evidently a rather boring 79MPH piece of ROW, compared to the old route, EXCEPT for this 30MPH kink in the route. |
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| (1459086) | |
Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 20 06:58:32 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 20 00:17:29 2017. The cameras in the cab were damaged. We hope they can retrieve the footage. |
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| (1459087) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 20 07:01:10 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Dec 20 00:23:02 2017. Since there was no PTC, or for that matter no ATC, o ASC, railroad speed limits don't mean anything more than what you have on the highway. |
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| (1459104) | |
Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Dec 20 08:49:02 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington, posted by R30A on Tue Dec 19 19:24:52 2017. Not disagreeing, but the idea has crossed my mind that this could be a Titanic-esque type situation with possible pressure put on the operator and/or others to have the run completed on time or early to prove the effectiveness of the reroute and the money put into it. |
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| (1459107) | |
Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 20 09:45:47 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington, posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Dec 20 08:49:02 2017. They started off a half hour late. No way to make up that amount of time. |
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| (1459110) | |
Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Dec 20 09:57:01 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington, posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 20 06:52:16 2017. All the more reason to focus carefully on the route. :( |
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| (1459112) | |
Re: Amtrak Cascades 501 Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Dec 20 10:08:13 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Cascades 501 Derailment in Washington, posted by R2ChinaTown on Tue Dec 19 20:59:40 2017. the system can not be turned on , till all locomotives used on that line have the PTC equipment , the Siemens SC44 has PTC but again it can not be used yet. |
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Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Dec 20 10:12:38 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington, posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 20 06:58:32 2017. even if camera's are damaged the images or on memory in different location |
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Re: Amtrak Cascades 501 Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Dec 20 12:00:26 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Cascades 501 Derailment in Washington, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Dec 20 10:08:13 2017. YOUR CELL PHONE IS THE PROBLEM!!!!!Railroads cannot get the frequencies that they need to run PTC... Cell phone companies have deeper pockets and bought them all up. ROAR |
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Re: Amtrak Cascades 501 Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Dec 20 12:00:44 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Cascades 501 Derailment in Washington, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Dec 20 10:08:13 2017. YOUR CELL PHONE IS THE PROBLEM!!!!!Railroads cannot get the frequencies that they need to run PTC... Cell phone companies have deeper pockets and bought them all up. ROAR |
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Re: Amtrak Cascades 501 Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Dec 20 12:06:15 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Cascades 501 Derailment in Washington, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 20 00:22:02 2017. Availability of frequencies are regional. |
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Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Dec 20 12:09:18 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington, posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 20 06:56:24 2017. PTC is not really worth all that much.FULLY AUTOMATED OPERATION is the way to go. ROAR |
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Re: Amtrak Cascades 501 Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Dec 20 12:11:37 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Cascades 501 Derailment in Washington, posted by R30A on Tue Dec 19 19:26:51 2017. There was talk about a truck or a tree on the rails.That talk seems to have evaporated. ROAR |
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Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Dec 20 12:14:50 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 20 00:24:39 2017. How come I did not see this breifing... Why didn't you post the URL |
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Re: Amtrak Cascades 501 Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 20 12:26:53 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Cascades 501 Derailment in Washington, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Dec 20 12:00:44 2017. but not in LA where PTC is deployed on Metrolink. |
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Re: Amtrak Cascades 501 Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 20 13:01:10 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Cascades 501 Derailment in Washington, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 20 12:26:53 2017. Well, Chatsworth started it all. |
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Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Dec 20 13:38:00 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Dec 19 18:17:50 2017. Punishment for apparent incompetence is not the exclusive domain of Joseph Stalin. |
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Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 20 13:49:27 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Dec 20 12:14:50 2017. I no longer remember where I foud that; however, the "third briefing" is herehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ego0e5BjzSE&feature=em-uploademail I believe that was yesterday PM but am not aware of a more up to date briefing from NTSB. The salient points as I understand what is known, are "qualified" engineer and trainee conductor incab. rumored Siemens customer engineer not mentioned. brakes went BIE as air hoses broke apart, no indication SO FAR of service braking by engineer prior PTC scheduled to be functionsal "in 2018" whenever that means. |
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Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Dec 20 14:11:38 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington, posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Dec 18 16:03:43 2017. Both ATC and ATS could have dealt with this situation using off the shelf technology for far less money and far less operational impact. |
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Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Dec 20 14:13:04 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Dec 19 17:26:21 2017. If the technology doesn't work (which it doesn't) what are you going to do? |
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Re: Amtrak Cascades 501 Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Dec 20 15:15:37 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Cascades 501 Derailment in Washington, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Dec 20 12:11:37 2017. The train derailed.After it derailed, portions of it hit a bunch of trees and some motor vehicles including a truck. |
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Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 20 15:59:59 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington, posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Dec 20 14:11:38 2017. insufficient opportunities for graft |
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Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 20 16:10:46 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington, posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Dec 20 14:13:04 2017. use something that does. Example. When BART's bs based computer train control failed regularly, it turned out that the station "nexttrain coming system" actually worked.In the #188 case FRA ordered Amtrak to activate the reliable PRR installed speed control. |
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Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 20 17:23:52 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 20 13:49:27 2017. They just should have just sat tight and run the old route until they got PTC operational. |
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Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 20 17:24:36 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 20 16:10:46 2017. Yep, and a lot of people can't seem to remember that. |
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Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Dec 20 17:28:01 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 20 17:23:52 2017. you should try to find out why they switched and why they bought the hardly used bypass.PTC will still take many years to implement, and partly because of our government and the idiots that put them in power. |
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Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Dec 20 17:35:19 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington, posted by 3-9 on Wed Dec 20 13:38:00 2017. Punishment should NOT be an option for employers. Termination is a possibility, but nothing more than that. And that is NOT called punishment. |
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Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 20 17:39:16 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Dec 20 17:28:01 2017. the purpose of the bypass was to have a passenger only ROW eliminating freight conflict. It was upgraded to 79mph track--one assumes newer rail, ballast and surfacing work, replacing bad ties etc. Given that Metrolink in LA has PTC in service now, it should be possible on this short stretch in a few months. Part of the holdup, IINM, is the final acceptance of the newly delivered Siemens Chargers. |
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Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Dec 20 18:41:04 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 20 17:39:16 2017. no hold up is all engines traveling that route must be equipped, the units do have factory installed PTC systems. and I am not sure if metro link system is same version . MN equipped the M-8's with PTC(acses) but its not compatible with newer Amtrak versions. |
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Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Dec 20 18:47:02 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Dec 20 17:28:01 2017. They switched routes because they closed the old station in Tacoma Washington and began using the newer station closer to downtown and a new arena or something. The old route was no longer an option to them.ROAR |
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Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Dec 20 18:51:52 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Dec 20 17:35:19 2017. Punishment should NOT be an option for employers.I don't think he meant imprisonment or sending them to bed without dinner. I think he meant things like time off without pay. Of course that's something employers should be allowed to do, for cause. |
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