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| Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) (1456461) | |
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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by BMRR on Mon Dec 4 08:39:25 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Dec 4 04:20:01 2017. Just noticed in the first picture that the car does not havepick up shoes, but slider type device. That would mean the 3rd rail was uncovered. |
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| (1457038) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Dec 4 15:33:55 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by SUBWAYMAN on Sun Dec 3 22:05:15 2017. The Composites could not run on the 6th Ave el, which closed on this day, Dec 4th, 1938. I read somewhere that some Composites had been out of service for a few years before that. Does anyone here know? |
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| (1457040) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Dec 4 16:08:58 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by Elkeeper on Mon Dec 4 15:33:55 2017. Hello ELKEEPER -The Composites did not run on the 6th Ave EL due to some weight restrictions on the lower part of the EL from Morris St Junction north to W. 3rd St. However -- they were too heavy also for most of the 9th Avenue El portions below W.99th Street to South Ferry. The Composites (those that were not scrapped due to fires or accidents) ran in their vast majority fleet numbers - in 2nd and 3rd Ave EL express services thru June 1940 when the 2nd Ave EL from E. 60th Street to the Bronx Harlem River Bridge (E.129th St) was closed. After that Gate Cars and MUDC's handled all Express services on the 2nd Ave EL in routes which ran from either City Hall or South Ferry to and across the (59th St) Queensboro Bridge to either the IRT Flushing EL or the IRT Astoria EL The Composites from June 1940 thru May April-May 1950 continued as previously, to be operated in Express Services on the 3rd Avenue EL, as well as a fet sets of Composites used for the Polo Grounds Shuttle services (ex. 9th ave El remains) from June 1940 thru very early 1950-- when they were replaced by a few sets of Hi-V Motor Cars. The Composites trucks were needed as I previously stated in another message on this site, for installation under the Motor A & C "Q" Type EL cars. The Q Types replaced all the Composites by May 1950 on the 3rd Ave EL express services. Some Composites were used thru 1951 as work horses in yards involved with scrapping the Composites and surplus very old EL gate Cars . regards - Joe F |
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| (1457041) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Dec 4 16:57:09 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Dec 4 16:08:58 2017. Joe, some were scrapped in 1938, after being out of service for many years. Those were the ones that interested me. Apparently, the 6th Ave el was still running when they were scrapped. Just curious as to why, 2 years before Unification. |
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| (1457046) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Dec 4 18:28:21 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Dec 4 16:08:58 2017. A photo was posted on Subchat quite awhile back, which showed what clearly were Composites layed up on the Astoria line center track. Could you explain why they might have been placed at that location? (extra storage track space needed? or laid up there prior to scrapping?)Also, the Interborough Fleet book contains a picture of a destroyed Composite which had fallen from the lead to the Corona yards. Were any Composites used on the Queens lines inn work service, or were any Composites shopped there for some particular reason? Thanks. Express Rider |
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| (1457051) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Dec 4 18:44:46 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by BMRR on Mon Dec 4 08:39:25 2017. El 3rd rail in NYC was uncovered although Manhattan els had “protection boards” on the sides in many locations. |
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| (1457079) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Dec 5 00:17:33 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by Elkeeper on Mon Dec 4 16:57:09 2017. Hello ELKeeperin the past 5 decades or so, I haven't seen any concise listing of each and every Composite car and its disposition and why and when it was disposed of. However, what is known is that 500 Composite Cars were built between 1902-03, and by 1916 when they were being modified for and transferred to the two east side Manhattan El lines as Express Service trains, by then 23 Composites were already damaged or destroyed by fires and accidents, wrecks. 68 Composites were also scrapped in 1938 -- likely those in damaged or poor condition and likely stripped for usable parts for still operating composite cars in that fleet. This likely was due to the surplus of Gate and MUDC EL cars used to service the late 1937 closed 6th Avenue EL, to replace these 68 Composites. During the start of WWII immediately after the FULL closing in mid 1942 of the 2nd Ave EL, many Composites were sold to the US Government (War Board) for use being towed by Electric locos to war production based factories and plants. After WWII ended in August 1945, and by Sept. 1946 there were 159 Composites remaining, more than enough (22 seven-car trains) to service the express train needs on the remaining 3rd Ave EL. That is what is known. Regards - Joe F |
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| (1457080) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Dec 5 00:50:26 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by Express Rider on Mon Dec 4 18:28:21 2017. Hello Express RiderAs long as I have been around -- I have never seen photos of Composites serving the IRT Flushing and IRT Astoria Line EL's. Of note is that IF any transit railfans existed in 1917 when the IRT 2nd Ave EL finally cross the Queensboro Bridge to Queens and on to those two IRT EL lines, they likely didn't have, nor could afford those huge professional cameras only available back then. So likely no photos were taken by them. It is possible and not unlikely that Composites could have and possibly did serve the Queens EL services via 2nd Ave EL - QBoro Bridge in 1917 and for a few years after. The All Motor Car composites would have no problems on the Bridge grades. However, using logic and history, when the BMT started running their BMT EL Gate Car Shuttles starting in 1922 on the Flushing & Astoria lines from Queens Plaza Station out to Flushing & Astoria, this likely dropped the passenger volume of IRT rider passengers. Those BMT system passengers who would depart the terminating BMT Standards arriving from the 60th St tunnel connection to Queens Plaza to take either the IRT 2nd Ave EL or IRT Steinway Lines Subway trains -- out to Astoria or Flushing. By 1922, the BMT Passengers could change for free transfer, across the BMT station island platform, from the BMT Steel Standards subway trains to the BMT EL Gate Car Shuttles to and from those terminal destinations. And perhaps how and why a Composite rolled off the end of an unfinished Flushing El structure track and fell to the street during the construction of the IRT Flushing Line EL. And that photo "purporting" to be Composites layup-stored on a center track on the Astoria EL - which however, could have been the IRT Jerome Ave or White Plains Rd EL per the style of background buildings In that event, Composites likely would have been surplus consists, and would have been returned to and permanently relegated solely to 3rd & 2nd Avenue El express services only. Just my professional assumption. With the 1920 extensions of the Bronx 3rd Ave. EL from Bronx Park (west) Terminal northward to Gun Hill Road (via Webster Ave) and to E. 241St Street via the White plains Rd El, and the White Plains Road line EL from E. 180th Street northward to E. 241st Street - the Composites would have been much needed for those extended services and increased mileage routes express services. regards - Joe F |
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| (1457116) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Dec 5 15:12:13 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Dec 5 00:17:33 2017. Good point. Also since the MUDCs required fewer C/Rs it made more economic sense to retire the Composites with their manual doors and substitute MUDC el cars as the composites’ performance declined. The composites were able to serve a few more years on the Polo Grounds shuttle since after the first few years of their operation, train lengths were cut to 2 cars and only needed one C/R. After 1949 when the Qs were no longer needed for BMT Queens service, that was the death knell for the Composites since with MUDC, the Qs needed only one C/R. |
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| (1457117) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Dec 5 15:16:46 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Dec 5 00:50:26 2017. Composites were used from time to time on various elevated sections of the IRT Subway Division including the Flushing Line as shuttles on the outer portions on those lines till sufficient steel cars became available for through service. |
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| (1457134) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Dec 5 18:42:25 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by randyo on Tue Dec 5 15:16:46 2017. Hello Randy O ---THANKS and Much appreciated for that info and, I had forgotten about that!! And yes, at late nights some mainline IRT train services short turned ie; At Parkchester on the Pelham El in the 1920's and used Composites as shuttles to the Pelham Bay Station terminal end of the line and back to Parkchester. And on the 3rd Ave EL from Gun Hill Road to E. 241st St terminal and back at late nights as owl-shuttles. Likely also, until the BMT started Queens Plaza Station complex to the Astoria & Flushing Lines' El's, their Gate Car EL shuttles in 1922, the IRT Composites did that shuttle service on the outer Flushing Line. regards ! - Joe F |
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| (1457137) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by X-Astorian on Tue Dec 5 19:20:02 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Dec 5 18:42:25 2017. "Likely also, until the BMT started Queens Plaza Station complex to the Astoria & Flushing Lines' El's, their Gate Car EL shuttles in 1922, the IRT Composites did that shuttle service on the outer Flushing Line."Probably not - remember that it was the Corona Line and trains ran only to Alburtis Avenue (today's 103rd Street). While the BMT started its shuttles in April 1923, it was still five years before the line reached Flushing. |
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| (1457143) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Dec 5 19:56:48 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by X-Astorian on Tue Dec 5 19:20:02 2017. Hello X-AstorianTHANKS ALSO for that important additional information -- and the April 1923 date of BMT EL Gate Car trains shuttle service on the CORONA (Flushing) & Astoria EL's. !! Yes, officially called the IRT Corona Line at that time. Much appreciated The Corona Yards were under construction in 1926-7 and so was the Elevated yard lead connection EL structure ....and the line to Flushing Terminal. And here are two photos of the Composite Car that rolled off the end of the still under construction and unfinished, yad lead tracks on the completed yard lead EL structure - 8-17-1927 - and rolled onto and fell off the steelwork of the EL structure to the muddy ground below!   regards - Joe F |
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| (1457147) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Dec 5 21:00:20 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Dec 5 00:17:33 2017. Those 68 Composites scrapped in 1938 are what interested me. That's a lot of cars! |
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| (1457149) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Tue Dec 5 21:15:57 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by Elkeeper on Tue Dec 5 21:00:20 2017. Elkeeper: That's the same year that the Sixth Avenue El was abandoned. It free up enough of the Gates and MUDC's to replace the Composites that were in the worst shape. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1457152) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Dec 5 22:06:37 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Tue Dec 5 21:15:57 2017. Hello LarryI guess you do not read my various postings on this site -- as this information was already answered long ago today 12-5-2017 00:17:33 in my message text to ELKEEPER -- see copy pasted specific text here below.. ===================================================================================== ....."Hello ELKeeper In the past 5 decades or so, I haven't seen any concise listing of each and every Composite car and its disposition and why and when it was disposed of. However, what is known is that 500 Composite Cars were built between 1902-03, and by 1916 when they were being modified for and transferred to the two east side Manhattan El lines as Express Service trains, by then 23 Composites were already damaged or destroyed by fires and accidents, wrecks. 68 Composites were also scrapped in 1938 -- likely those in damaged or poor condition and likely stripped for usable parts for still operating composite cars in that fleet. This likely was due to the surplus of Gate and MUDC EL cars used to service the late 1937 closed 6th Avenue EL, to replace these 68 Composites. ========================================================================================== Regards - Joe F |
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| (1457157) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Dec 5 23:32:42 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Dec 5 00:50:26 2017. re: And that photo "purporting" to be Composites layup-stored on a center track on the Astoria EL - which however, could have been the IRT Jerome Ave or White Plains Rd EL per the style of background buildingsHello Joe, I Google searched for that photo at the Subchat webpage, couldn't find it, and I didn't save it myself. If you have the image or access to it, could you post it please? I don't remember if the subchat post said Astoria line, or if that was the assumption I came to myself after examining it. I certainly will accept your judgement that it more likely was either Jerome or WHPlns Rd. els - You are from and grew up in the city, and ceertainly have ridden both those lines much more than I throughout all these years, and yes, would be very well aquainted with the style of the background buildings in the neighborhood. Best, Express Rider |
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| (1457161) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Dec 6 01:12:28 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Dec 5 00:17:33 2017. Hello Joe,re: your above post, details from the following article are found below: NY Division Bulletin, Dec. 1972, vol. 15 #6, (page 5) article: IRT Car Explanations and Alterations - Part I by B. Linder Composite fleet consisted of 401 cars at unification, by 11/23/49 there were 95 left. The author cites source as being from incomplete records and that... complete post-unification scrapping records are not available but incomplete records exist. So between Sept. 1946 and November 23, 1949, an additional 64 Composites were either scrapped or out of service (or storage pending scrapping) - does this info. seem correct (assumption or otherwise) based on the fact that known records are incomplete? Thanks, Express Rider |
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| (1457191) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Dec 6 12:27:07 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by Express Rider on Wed Dec 6 01:12:28 2017. Hello Express RiderI have that 1972 ERA Bulletin also -- and it is as correct as any could be based on as we then knew, incomplete and partial records. Composites were no longer needed with and for the decimation of service times, branches, etc., on the 3rd Avenue EL (the only remaining mainline using Composites other than a few Composites used on the Polo Shuttle until 1950) between 1946 and 1949-50. These services were: (a) the Bergen Cutoff route for West Farms EL Freeman St expresses, abandoned on 11-5-1946, (b) the South Ferry Branch (planned in late 1949 to be closed within a year, pending hearings) abandoned on 12-23-1950, NOTE: Composites (and later Q Types) were too heavy for that South Ferry Branch 1877-78 built structure below Chatham Square Station. But the service train consists (mainly MUDC consists) needed for that line's 24 hours service, could now be used to replace additional Composite cars in their express services; (c) the likewise planned in 1949 and effected same date of 12-23-1950, termination of all 3rd Ave EL local and express services from Gun Hill Road Station to and from E. 241st Street Terminal on the White Plains Rd line EL So the remaining Composites retained towards end of 1949 Express Services as operated on the 3rd Ave EL (along with some Gate Cars and MUDC's) were already planned by numbers to operate until, and then have their trucks placed under the Q type Motor A & C cars between late 1949 and early 1950 -- to replace those Composites on the 3rd Avenue EL express services. And then all be scrapped at that changeover time. The NYCTA in the very early 1960's underwent a massive "dead files" purge when they cleaned out rooms of file cabinets and storage bins at 370 Jay Street HQ and totally discarded (took to Coney Island Yards I presume to burn and dispose of) of ancient Manhattan EL / IRT and BMT Company records, photos, stats, blueprints, plans, etc. related to / for IRT and BMT Elevated Lines (structures, etc) that were scrapped between 1931 and 1956 - and the abandoned since 8-1958) Polo Shuttle which was actually scrapped on the Bronx side of the River to Jerome Line connection about 1961). As well as long scrapped and gone IRT Company and BMT Company EL and Subway car rolling stock. Composite detailed records likely could have been part of that purge. In my postings here, where I have exact dates in my mind, memory, I provide them -- but I don't have the time to spend endless hours of research for same on generalized background info tidbits added to support and document an actual specific event or incident that is the main topic of discussion or question. I provide very close or near approximate time frames for those perimeter type supporting details. As far as the Composites - anyone who was around then as an adult or working as same at the TA, and knew or saw any first hand details and rosters, if any, are likely long gone now. I would suspect that (the late) George Horn, a former NYCTS Motorman, may have had such data -- but he and it are gone and he passed on without ever producing the long awaited great book on the IRT and NYC Transit history.! regards - Joe F |
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| (1457202) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Dec 6 13:34:27 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Dec 6 12:27:07 2017. We thank you for whatever knowledge you DO provide us. Which is a lot :) |
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| (1457211) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Dec 6 13:57:58 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Dec 6 12:27:07 2017. I was told about the dead file purge during the early 60's at the TA, by the inidividual who formerly worked there. A travesty - certainly not like London Underground which archives what seems to be practically all their early records, being conscious it the systems history.I was also told that some part of the IRT company's records were in a special collection at a college or university library up in Connecticut, and that George Horne, had done research for his history there. I appreciate all the history and details you provide, and understand that research results for the minute detail of background material, may either take too much personal time, and given incomplete records may be inconclusive at best. Maybe there is still enough source material and first or second hand knowledge amongst collectors, and those who post here, to still maybe assemble and write a history of the IRT by committee, if that is possible. Thanks also for the info. about Composites in shuttle service on the Pelham line. Best, Express Rider |
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| (1457213) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Dec 6 14:01:57 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by MainR3664 on Wed Dec 6 13:34:27 2017. Hello Main R3664Thanks ! - for that comment and it is appreciated !!. Knowledge, History, is USELESS unless SHARED and passed along. That is basically the sum of it ! When one passes away, heh, their knowledge passes away with them ! Regards ! - Joe F |
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| (1457217) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Dec 6 14:24:08 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by Express Rider on Wed Dec 6 13:57:58 2017. Hello express RiderWhat I myself have done, thru reviewing various forum boards, over the past 15 years, including this (and its Sub Talk predecessor) one here, is to find and retain, copy and paste, any important data, history nuances, tidbits, hidden and surfacing facts, and save them in special titled-folders in my computer. I also print them and install such material in relevant manila file folders, in my filing cabinets (heh, the OLD SKOOL) related to the specific topic, subject, incident, etc. There are countless many historical tidbits that are not of official record, but are events and experiences witnessed by people, employees, historians, fans, that only become relevant history or adjuncts or appendages to actual documented history, when they are shared. Individual memories when pretty much accurate can help improve and expand (aka sidebars) a lot of history related facts and events. As far as Composites on the Pelham EL in short term shuttle service, I can only go on what I was informed by persons long ago and their sources, as I was not there first-hand obviously so long ago back then (or I would not be HERE now , heh ). I just pass it along for whatever it may be worth. regards - Joe F |
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| (1457223) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 6 15:20:16 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Dec 5 22:06:37 2017. If I remember correctly, 464 Composites were converted for Manhattan el service. From the photos I have seen, only the center doors were opened on the 2 car Composites on the Polo Grounds shuttle. |
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| (1457232) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Dec 6 16:03:16 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 6 15:20:16 2017. Hello El KeeperMy memories of and exposure regularly to the shuttle are about 1951 onward as my father lived up the block from the Anderson Ave Station. Composites were already gone by then since early 1950. As far as what doors were opened on the Composites -- being that the end doors were operated by those huge long external levers (via gears and rods in the vestibule ceiling)and required back bruising arm work, heh, and the center doors (as they were likewise on the steel body HI-V cars with manual-lever operated end vestibule doors) were remotely air operated by a tiny lever under the end face windows ..the conductor likely elected to stand between the 2 Composite cars, and use the simple small downward facing (left and right action) lever on both sides of him, to activate the air operated center doors. Makes sense. And less effort ! The ONLY advantage of the Polo Shuttle(other than the Ball Park Polo Grounds Stadium on GAME DAYS -- located next to the W.155th St EL Station) - would be for any passengers who wanted to get to either Sedgwick Avenue Station adjacent5 streets and houses (and to the NY Central Putnam line joint RR terminal station there) -- or the Anderson Avenue Station.. or to E. 167th Street Station on the IRT Jerome Ave EL (a shot shopping strip there and Loews Movie Theater) Alternately, people could take the IND 8th Ave -Concourse line at W. 155th St, 8 Ave. Subway Station and ride that train east under the Harlem River to the Bronx and exit at E. 161St Station to get the IRT Jerome EL there. Basically, from 1950 and progressively thru to its close in August 1958, the shuttle, other than on game days and "other" events held at the stadium, and likewise the AM & PM rush hours... did not see any significant amount of passengers, especially at late nights. And in its last year or so, was reduced to ONE TRACK running. The close of the Putnam RR branch and the closing of the stadium spelled it doom and closure in August 1958 for what little ridership remained |
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| (1457236) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Dec 6 16:33:14 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Dec 5 19:56:48 2017. Wow!! It doesn't seem all that smart to have let them onto an unfinished structure. Perhaps they were part of a construction train- but I don't see any accompanying flat cars, crane cars, etc...Look to be almost the reverse of when a Myrtle or Lexington Ave El train wandered onto branch that was being demolished (Navy St/Hudson Ave?) |
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| (1457238) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Dec 6 16:35:33 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by MainR3664 on Wed Dec 6 16:33:14 2017. Also, the second shot shows what looks to me like a group of young boys (age 10-13 or so), up close and personal with the wreck. In these litigious times, they'd never let civilians in the area until everything was photographed, CSI-ed, and cleaned up. |
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| (1457242) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Dec 6 16:43:47 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Dec 5 18:42:25 2017. According to an IRT old timer I worked with who was an el man, overnight the 3 Av el ran in 3 sections. The mainline ran between Fordham Rd and Canal St and there were 2 shuttles, one between Canal and So/Fy and the other between Fordham and 241 Wh Pl Rd. I would assume that the reason fo that would have been that the mainline had a better headway and the shuttles ran less frequently. |
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| (1457254) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Dec 6 17:04:22 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by Express Rider on Tue Dec 5 23:32:42 2017. It could also have been the 3 Av el since Midday expresses of Composites and later Qs were laid up there. |
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| (1457286) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Dec 6 21:32:06 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by randyo on Wed Dec 6 17:04:22 2017. Thanks too. I would like to see this photo again. Hope someone is able to post this image - Thanks. |
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| (1457302) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Dec 7 06:52:50 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Dec 3 09:28:58 2017. Wow!!! Thanks. |
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| (1457334) | |
Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by qveensboro_plaza on Thu Dec 7 11:32:23 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Dec 1 20:04:05 2017. Though much of the surrounding neighborhood has been redeveloped,the apartment building behind the Composite is still standing, at the SE corner of 163 St and Third Ave. 
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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by murray1575 on Thu Dec 7 12:31:01 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Dec 1 08:38:29 2017. Thanks for this account of the work done to the Q cars to make them compatible with IRT elevated lines. However there were many more Composite cars made than Q car conversions from gate cars. So not all of the Composite cars had to be retired to provide enough motor trucks for the "more modern" Q cars. However the labor intensive manual doors and their age plus reduced car requirements due to the demise of the elevated lines told against their continued use. There was one other modification made to the Q cars when they were sent to the Third Avenue line. Their classification lights were moved from the outer corners of the roof to above the end door IRT-style so that they would clear the platform canopies of the stations. The other modifications to the Q cars (lowering of the clerestory roofs and installation of fans) were not done until after they were sent back to the BMT to replace the gate cars on the Myrtle Ave. line. |
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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Dec 7 13:29:19 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by murray1575 on Thu Dec 7 12:31:01 2017. Hello Murray 1575Thanks much for that information. HOWEVER, the labor issue covered completely in my posted message (#1456690) commentary on the topic. Larry Redbird R33 brought up the ROOF MARKER relocating in his reply (#1456758) to my posting, and I replied with more details on that (#1456763). Possibly you didn't read the whole thread ! (Yes, understanding that it was quite long as it was !) My Comments on the Composites and why they were retired in 1949-1950, and the Q's replacing them in 3rd Ave EL Express Service, related specifically to those issues only. As well as the trucks from Composites being placed under A&C Motor Car Q types. And solely those key points listed to keep things simple and focused. The excess remaining Composites above those needed for the Q Type A&C Motor Car conversions, were stripped of motors and related comparable electrical parts for the salvage-use in the later maintenance & repairing of the ex-composite car trucks installed under the A&C Motor Car Q types. Those remaining Composite cars and their remaining un-needed underbody equipment, were also then all scrapped. Re; your comment per the lowered modified roofs (during the early 1960's) as well as such requiring the (former MULTI Section cars) small electric ceiling fans, is interesting and well known, but had no bearing on the 1949-1950 transfer topic. They would be more specific on topics related to the Q's and Myrtle El service.....an other and separate topic Regards ! - Joe F |
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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Dec 7 14:04:16 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by qveensboro_plaza on Thu Dec 7 11:32:23 2017. Hello Queensboro plazaTHANKS for that very interest point and picture of the still remaining corner building ! Hwoever, see below for a correction on your message: BELOW -- This IS NOT a Composite Car - its a Manhattan Elevated IRT MUDC EL Motor Car (see the SECOND PHOTO further down) BELOW -- This IS A Composite car seen at the south end head of a train on same, in view looking northeast on the S/B Platform of 3rd Ave El E. 161st Street local Station, about 1948 The same building (with side sign) can be seen as in top photo.  I have driven my car up and down along the present Bronx 3rd Avenue in very recent times (last year and previous a few years) and am astounded at how much of the original tenements and buildings I remember well "By the EL" (heh)--as being "land marks" for EL scene location identifications -- from the 1950's thru 1970's, are now long gone. Many new (plain bland light colored and tan, red modern brick fronts) buildings and stores have arisen and the Avenue is significantly changed from my close association with my frequent riding and photographing the EL extensively during 1950's thru Bronx closing April 1973) and demolition (1974 thru 1976). Even the former E. 161st St EL Substation was demolished in the mid 2000's Here is treat for you - a great photo in my collection from Oct. 1914, looking north along the S/B Local track, to the ORIGINAL E.161st St Station, as all the stations on the line were built when new (as "The Suburban Railway" in 1890's -- later converted to an outside platforms station in 1915 when the 3rd center express track was added to the entire line from E. 133rd Street to Bronx Park Terminal The two local tracks seen in the photo below remained intact and were the same tracks 1917 and beyond after the structure rebuilding. The center platform station was removed for the new express track to pass thru -- the same center track the trains in the top two photos are seen sitting on. And the same building (with side wall sign) is seen at right as seen in the top two photos. And at left is the then fairly new (since 1900) E.161St Street EL Power Substation, which long lasted past the EL's demise until the mid 2000's.  regards - Joe F |
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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by chud1 on Thu Dec 7 15:54:51 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Dec 7 14:04:16 2017. 5 drooling stars out of 5 drooling stars.chud1 :)..... |
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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by qveensboro_plaza on Sun Dec 10 11:12:25 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Dec 7 14:04:16 2017. JoeThank you very much for this photo of the original 161 Street station, and the clarification of MUDS vs Composite. What a bustling thoroughfare Third Avenue was! In the early 1970s I taught at an elementary school at 139/Willis Avenue in the South Bronx. The former private ROW of the Third Ave El passed right behind the school, and high on the wall of an adjacent (then-abandoned) tenement building was a faded sign that read "All Cars Transfer to Bloomingdales," similar to the one on the building in your photo. I wish I had thought to take a photo of it at the time. (Back when the El was running, Bloomingdale's was not the upscale boutique store it is today, but a typical large department store catering to a broad segment of styles and budgets. The El must have been a big source of customers who wanted to shop downtown rather than at The Hub, so it is no surprise that Bloomingdale's advertised heavily all along the El route.) Regarding the MUDC cars, I remember my father (who was an IRT motorman for 35 years) taking me to ride on the Third Ave El before it shut down. I was four years old. We boarded at 42nd Street, having traveled in from Queens on the 7 train, and rode downtown. There was a shop back then that sold model trains (I think on 23rd Street, if I recall correctly) and I remember we went in to look, then took the El back up to 42nd Street. The only thing I remember clearly about the El ride was the very strange looking doors, with their narrow vertical windows, and the sound they made as they opened and closed. The trains seemed such a contrast to the modern R-12 and R-15s we had on the Flusing Line. Funny the things that stay in a child's memory. When my father passed away many years ago, my mother found that he had kept one of his motorman's tools - is it called a throttle? A metal handle with (again, if I recall correctly) a square or hexagonal hole at one end that fitted on to the power console in the motorman's cab. He also kept a mimeographed bound set of instructions from 1948 regarding lo-V operating procedures. I don't know what my mother did with these items, but they disappeared sometime over the years. Again, thanks very much for your incredible research and knowledge. |
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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by FormerVanWyckBlvdUser on Sun Dec 10 14:03:22 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by qveensboro_plaza on Sun Dec 10 11:12:25 2017. Probably the brake handle (the square hole is the clue). |
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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Dec 10 17:19:42 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by FormerVanWyckBlvdUser on Sun Dec 10 14:03:22 2017. It may have been a controller handle from the Qs which also had a square hole. During the time the Qs were replacing the Composites, the el M/M had to carry a lot of equipment. They needed 3 brake handles since the Manhattan el cars, the Composites and the Qs each had a different type, a reverser which fortunately was the same for the Manhattan el cars and the composites, an electric brake key for the composites, and a controller handle for the Qs as well as 2 sets of door keys for the IRT cars and the Qs. |
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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Dec 10 17:57:32 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by qveensboro_plaza on Sun Dec 10 11:12:25 2017. Hello Queensboro Plaza Thank you for that very interesting & nostalgic recitation of your boyhood memories -- on the 3rd Ave El and the train store. Its possible your father was a one time motorman on the El - and went to the "subway division" --sounds like the handle he had was a cutting key handle, or a larger thicker heavier brake handle. Here is an image of a typical brake handle 
There is some bare land existing where the El ran in the alley -- here below is an aerial shot showing your your school, looking north across E. 138th street -- the alleyway with cars is where the E. 138th St double deck El station was where it crossed E.138th St. The brown brick building behind the tenements at left across from your school PS 49 is an IRT Power Substation that fed the nearby IRT subway and also the 3rd Ave EL - in front of the words WILLIS playground. AERIAL VIEW NORTH ACROSS E 138 St - Alleyway for the EL survives BELOW is a photo from 1915 when the Alley EL was widened for wider platforms and double deck stations - view north along the old narrow E. 138th Street Station - the original S/B track was moved about 10 feet to the west along the alleyway. The 2 tenements seen across E. 138th Street still remain today N to E.138St during rebuilding and widening Alley EL in 1915 |
