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Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by heypaul on Tue Nov 28 21:00:33 2017

Very moody shot

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by Dave on Tue Nov 28 21:38:26 2017, in response to Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by heypaul on Tue Nov 28 21:00:33 2017.

That is a great shot.

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Nov 29 02:18:38 2017, in response to Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by heypaul on Tue Nov 28 21:00:33 2017.

Hello Paul

Just as I remember my third to the north EL Local Station at night countless times until its destruction in Oct. - Nov. 1955 -- except the stairways at mine went as normally was the case, into the side street on each side of the EL.

The E. 67th St Local Station was one of the rare traditional Victorian "Cropsey designed Swiss Chalet style" 3rd Ave Local station houses which had its its two stairways descend directly down onto the 3rd Avenue sidewalks !

Almost similar scenes, if in a more modern contemporary street scenes setting, can be found along the 1904 built west side IRT Broadway EL Line (# 1 line) which has local only stations which have separate detached NB and SB station houses and stairways.

That line's EL Local Stations located in northern Manhattan over 10th Avenue at W. 207th Street and W. 215th Street, and over Broadway (across the River in the Bronx) at W. 231st Street and W. 238th Street.

Likewise, the 1902-1904 built IRT West Farms EL Line (aka # 5 Line) -- with similar 1902-4 built all Local stations on Westchester Avenue at Simpson Street, and over Southern Blvd. at Prospect Ave, Freeman Street, and East 174th Street.

Still retaining a good part of that old IRT 1902-4 era feel. More so when shot, heh, in "moody late night shots..."

regards - Joe F



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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Nov 29 03:43:50 2017, in response to Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by heypaul on Tue Nov 28 21:00:33 2017.

Dave

That shot is looking south along the uptown track and station house and platform (along the east sidewalk of 3rd Ave) from near E. 68th Street. The stairways came down - unusually - facing northward to the sidewalks of 3rd Avenue

To think I was likely asleep in my bedroom that late night in 1953 in my mothers apartment whose building was just adjacent to the 2nd N/B EL Local station north from this one !!

regards - Joe F

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by Dave on Wed Nov 29 04:55:13 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Nov 29 03:43:50 2017.

Thanks, Joe.

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Nov 29 17:59:09 2017, in response to Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by heypaul on Tue Nov 28 21:00:33 2017.

And by this time, there was no nighttime service on the el...

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Nov 29 19:16:12 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by MainR3664 on Wed Nov 29 17:59:09 2017.

Hello Main R3664

Yes... Weekday Night passenger service after 7PM and Weekend passenger service from Friday night after apprx. 7Pm thru 6AM Monday Morning, ended March 14, 1952 on the Manhattan 3rd Ave EL below E. 149th Street Express Station !

However - note that ALL local 3rd Ave El trains in the Bronx southward to and into the E. 149th Street Express Station, (which then in March 1952 still had its operational center express track thru the station) at night & weekend service periods only, had to then discharge passengers at 149th St S/B, and then proceed to travel south, empty, along the S/B local track from the E. 149th St Express Station, to the UPPER LEVEL of the (alley-way EL) E. 138th Street express station.

Then stop, change ends, and head back north and down to the Y switch at bottom of that center ramp track at the north end of the E. 143rd Street station, to switch over onto the N/B local track at E. 143rd Station LOWER LEVEL, and head north on the N/B local track to its N/B Island Platform platform at E. 149th Street Express Station !!!

Regarding this photo -- its either (and likely) mis-dated and could actually be in early 1952 prior to March 14th) - or it was shot in the winter of 1953 PRIOR to 7Pm end of daytime service, when it was already dark at that time.

However, as deserted as the Avenue is (pedestrians and traffic) in the rainy night photo scene, - and note the departing N/B local train at top right corner of photo - I suspect it IS mis-dated and was taken PRIOR to the March 14, 1952 night service closure...and is in fact, late at night (after 10PM or later). Remember, I lived in the East 80's along that line !

It may have been taken by the photographer to actually document the soon impending end of night time 3rd Ave EL train service !

regards - Joe F

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Nov 29 19:47:28 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by Dave on Wed Nov 29 04:55:13 2017.

hey Joe, did they leave those station lights on all night, after the March 14th, 1952 closures?

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Nov 30 03:53:52 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by Elkeeper on Wed Nov 29 19:47:28 2017.

Hello El Keeper

As I remember, per the two 3rd Ave EL Local stations in my E. 80's neighborhood I was daily exposed to (and used) - I know the lights were dark on both the platforms and the station houses and stairways.

ALSO, the station agent (one for each station house) -- a number whom I became friendly with at those stations, after dealing with the revenue collection train usually operated just before or after the last train -- had to hit the master switches for the platform, station house and stairway lights, lock the station house doors, descend the stairs, and swing closed and lock, a new wood slatted 2 section swinging gate installed and located on the first "landing" located usually one third of the way up the (each) stairway. So as to prevent pedestrian access up the stairways to the station house after revenue service closed for the night or weekend. This was more so for indicating visually that the station and service was CLOSED at that time, rather than for security purpose.

I would 'expect' this was the operating procedure for all stations.
Money was saved by not having hundreds of thousands of light bulbs burning electricity 12 hours each night when the line was closed nights and weekends !!

Here is a 1954 photo at the E. 59th Street UPTOWN EL station stairway at the S.E. corner of 3rd Ave & E. 59th Street, somewhat before 7 AM showing that 'gate' in closed position and passengers waiting for the agent to walk down the stairs and open it.




I would expect that the agent got to the station by bus or automobile
some time around or just after 6AM. (many agents actually lived in the areas near their stations - at least a few on my station did ) -- They opened and re-closed and locked the stairway gate, went up to the station house, unlocked all entry doors and entered his booth, and if dark out (winter morning) -- turn on all the light switches, get his monies and tokens arranged, paperwork started, etc., and at 7 AM descend to the closed gate(s), to unlock and open and latch the two halves of the gate fixed, secured, in open position, and have the waiting passengers follow him (or her) upstairs to pay their fare and await the first train arrival.

In the photo, note the light bulb under the stairway landing canopy is lit -- meaning the agent is already up in his station and lights are on - and the agent will shortly descend the stairs to unlock and open the gate-halves on each of the stairways at his station. Stations that had an on duty porter, said porter would assist this task.

The El station on my street had one porter who worked both station houses, and frequently crossed the tracks on the EL to get from one side to the other !!

Here is a 2009 Google street view of the same location -- link


West in 2009 to 3rd Avenue on E. 59th Street

ALL original buildings on each corner are long gone except the NW corner with the modernized facade of the old Bloomingdales Store, and the original building at foreground (S.E. corner) left but with modernized facade.

The original building at left will be gone by 2017 - replaced by a huge hi-rise. The El station stairway landing / footing seen in the photo was about where the bank of outdoor pay telephones are (remember them, heh!)

regards - Joe F

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Nov 30 06:58:22 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Nov 30 03:53:52 2017.

And the people waiting show just how necessary the service really was...

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Nov 30 07:00:47 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Nov 29 19:16:12 2017.

Thank you for this information. It's great to "hear" it from someone who was actually there.

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Nov 30 07:03:13 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Nov 30 03:53:52 2017.

Again, thanks for this information. I also wondered why the lights (or at least, so many of them) were on if there was no service.

Then, we get not only the obvious explanation that the photo is likely misdated, but your wonderful explanation of the station opening/closing procedures.

Thanks for sharing your memories :)

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by Express Rider on Thu Nov 30 15:00:07 2017, in response to Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by heypaul on Tue Nov 28 21:00:33 2017.

Mooday..... I can almost hear the saxophone playing Harlem Nocturne.

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by Express Rider on Thu Nov 30 15:00:39 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by Express Rider on Thu Nov 30 15:00:07 2017.

first word should be: "Moody"

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by Express Rider on Thu Nov 30 15:12:10 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by MainR3664 on Thu Nov 30 07:00:47 2017.

I totally agree!! :)

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Nov 30 16:21:25 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by Express Rider on Thu Nov 30 15:00:07 2017.

Hello Express Rider


Speaking of MOODY and "SAXAPHONE player -- you reminded me of something from so long ago ....

About 5:30 PM certain weekday nights to about near 7PM, there was a middle aged guy who played songs on a saxaphone across the street from my top floor tenement bedroom windows in the early 1950's -- up thru to about 1957 or so. I think he took the EL home (and to my block) because he stopped playing just before 7PM and walked up towards the station stairs near the S/E corner to catch the last train north for the night. The N/B EL station stairway for my station on the S/E corner side was about 50 feet from where he played.
His playing was quite melodic and very good !

After the 3rd Ave EL closed on Thursday night, May 12, 1955, we missed him for a few months or so -- and then one night he returned and played even beyond 7PM (usually 6 to 9 PM) -- I assume he now took the 1 block away IRT Lexington Avenue Subway to get to his "sidewalk stage" across the street from my home ! And continued his 2 or 3 nights routine again as usual..but now some nights were on WEEKENDS !.

People would listen out the apartment (tenements) house windows and toss coins to him wrapped in a paper towel piece of newspaper, or paper from a pad, or even toilet paper -- so the coin(s) would stay contained when they landed on the sidewalk. And passers by dropped coins into his small plastic bucket. He stood while he played --- it was soulful melancholy style music -- perhaps classics like Gershwin songs and such.

Summer and winter -- 2 or 3 nights a week, he was regularly there (perhaps he scored more $$$ on my block !)

Memories of my old and quiet U E S neighborhood by the EL --- not like that any more and certainly no longer quiet after 7 PM at night !

It was so quiet I could hear the thunka-daaa-clunk of the old huge wooden turnstiles being turned in the station house below my windows...as well as the MUDC EL trains whining to a squealing stop...car compressors humming, and the motor gearing distant groans as the old wooden EL train departed. My home was about 75 feet from the station.

I haven't thought about "the sax man" for 50 or more years until now --

Regards - Joe F

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Nov 30 17:01:56 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Nov 30 03:53:52 2017.

How long do you guys figure the manhattan 3rd Ave el could have lasted, as is? 5 years, perhaps?

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Nov 30 17:13:25 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by Express Rider on Thu Nov 30 15:00:07 2017.



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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Nov 30 18:14:30 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by Elkeeper on Thu Nov 30 17:01:56 2017.


Hello ELKEEPER

Well, the BMT Q Types that ran on the 3rd Ave EL from April 1950 thru to Sept. 16, 1956 on the post 5-12-1955 operated Bronx remnant EL, lasted 13 years longer until October 1969 on the BMT Myrtle Ave EL (and likely could have lasted 5 or 10 years longer with regular upkeep & maintenance) -- so there is no reason why the MUDC's (mainly built in the same 1901-1910 era as the BU / Q's which were between 1901 and 1905) could have lasted longer.

Also, the 3rd Ave El had a major surplus of MUDC's (parts included) from the 6th, 9th and later the 2nd Ave EL's 1942 closing. Even gate car trains served the El as expresses (and some locals) until the Q's replaced the Composites between Jan 1950 and May 1950 -- and the few remaining gate car consists were scrapped after 1950 with the start of decimation of the lines' branches and service patterns starting in 1950. Leaving solely the Q's and MUDC's for all operations.

The EL structure was still mechanically sound -- remember that it had major rebuilding of many segments in the 1913-1916 years with Solid H Beam EL columns installed at the HUMP Express stations, solid plate track girders (not the earlier lattice style) where no express track existed previously, station platform extensions, and the newly added (and more modern designed) Hump and twin-Island same-level express stations in the 1913-1916 period -- those rebuilds being only 40 years old when the Manhattan El was demolished !

Also remember, the entire Bowery section of the EL and its Stations from E. 7th Street south to Chatham Square and City Hall was TOTALLY BUILT NEW between 1913 and 1916 and only 40 years old when demolished!

Its demise was a well crafted deceptive plan as most of us well know, and orchestrated to diminish ridership to the extent that major losses of revenue due to same were factored mainly "as the coverup" story for its neeed to be demolished -- as well as the focusing on the "ancient" level of the 1878-1880's built segments of original structures.

The BMT Myrtle Ave EL underwent a major upgrading (and stations modernized cosmetically) in the 1957-1959 period -- and yet they found the money for that, and then still used, again, 50 to 55 year old (then) wood El cars (Q Types) to maintain ALL service from May 1958 thru Oct. 1969 !!!!

regards - Joe F

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Thu Nov 30 22:15:44 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Nov 30 18:14:30 2017.

Why were the Composites retired? Was it because they lacked MUDC on them?

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by Express Rider on Thu Nov 30 23:04:39 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Nov 30 16:21:25 2017.

What a memory to have and to keep! What a New York memory!
That made me remember how the photos by Larry Stelter's father
in his book, conveyed so well, how the upper east side on 3rd avenue was a cluster of neighborhoods, around and near each el station.
They were certainly places where all the locals knew each other - and the assorted regulars seen every day, or heard, like your sax man - these could really be called urban hamlets in the middle of Manhattan!

And even to be able to hear the heavy 'clinking' noiese of the turnstyles, and the "breathing" sounds of the MUDC's in motion and stopped - the soundtrack of a long vanished New York.

And Gershwin ballads are so right for the saxophone...

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by Express Rider on Thu Nov 30 23:08:39 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Nov 30 17:13:25 2017.

Ye-e-e-e-e-a-h!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Harlem Nocturne by the Viscounts - their version was the one that made me want to play the sax; as well as their version of Night Train (Which IIRC goes decades back to Ellington's Happy Go Lucky Local), and of course Tequila - especially the down and dirty sound of the saxist flutter-tonguing as he played the second chorus.

Thanks for posting this!! I still have original single I (or my parents) bought back when it came out.

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by 3-9 on Fri Dec 1 05:23:29 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Nov 30 18:14:30 2017.

Its demise was a well crafted deceptive plan as most of us well know, and orchestrated to diminish ridership to the extent that major losses of revenue due to same were factored mainly "as the coverup" story for its neeed to be demolished

That trick is still being used today, especially when getting rid of bus lines. You can't argue with "success".

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Dec 1 08:38:29 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by SUBWAYMAN on Thu Nov 30 22:15:44 2017.

Hello Subwayman

A correction First, and your answer Second;
------------------------------------------------------

FIRST-- let me CORRECT my typo in my previous post about when the Q TYPES were removed from the 3rd Ave EL in the Bronx after running there with some MUDC's after the Manhattan Section of the line closed ater May 12, 1955, and was demolished.

My typo displayed incorrectly "SEPT 1956" --- actually, as soon as I re-read it after posting it -- its SHOULD have been typed as DECEMBER 16, 1956. Can't edit postings here unfortunately ! So this is the correction update. Can't believe I made THAT typo !!

SECOND : The Composite question:
--------------------------------------------

The IRT ex-subway Composites were ALL motor cars and were ALL equipped with Manually lever-operated door controls. As with the IRT EL Gate Cars, they required a trainman between EACH car to open the door control levers on the exteriors of the vestibule ends of each pair of coupled cars, as well as operate the smaller lever under the vestibule end windows for the air-operated center door. Thus very labor intensive.

So when the Q's were relieved in Nov. 1949 from BMT Shuttle service on the then previously IRT controlled Flushing & Astoria EL lines, being they had MUDC controlled doors and had major overhaul and rebuilding in 1938, and thus "modernized", they were a logical replacement on the 3rd Ave El for the aging and battered Composites.

However, the main and more extensive reason the Composites were retired was because their Maximum Traction trucks HAD TO BE placed under the "A" and "C" Motor cars of the 3-car A-B-C configured Q Types .

The actual reason for this process need was as follows:
----------------------------------------------------------------

There were strictly enforced weight restrictions - after IRT Elevated train Motorization & Electrification in 1900-1902,- on the Manhattan EL's on some of the oldest 1878-1880 built portions of them built with those lattice "Y top Trenton Style (mfg.)" EL columns;

(1) -- Therefore, strict rule: NO TWO MOTOR CARS could be coupled together with both Motor trucks facing each other !

(2) -- Therefore, on the West Side IRT 6th & 9th Ave. EL's, all Elevated Motor Car "motor trucks" were at the SOUTH-facing end of each motor car;

(3) -- And on the East Side IRT EL's, all motor trucks were at the NORTH-facing end of each motor car;

(4) -- The MOTOR truck end of each motor car had steel under-vestibule channels to reinforce the motor truck end framing of the Motor Cars. The opposite trailer truck end retained its usual tapered platform support originally installed knee-beams;

NOW TO THE BMT Q-TYPES AND THEIR ROLES IN ALL OF THIS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

The Q types, as converted from EL open platform Gate Cars to MUDC in 1938, underwent the following BMT shop-designed and planned modifications;

(a) -- as each new Q-Type designated A & C motor car was to be converted to Motor Operating Cab at only ONE END of those motor cars, the opposite end being blind end, the CAB END of the car was designated logically to be located over the MOTOR TRUCK end of the car. The opposite trailing truck end of those gate cars had the motorman cab and controls removed entirely.

(b) -- This was done because the original "inside carbody" M/M cab on the opposite former open platform end was "partially" removed; Specifically, the REAR WALL of the cab facing the end seats, was removed. The forward Cab wall with the Motorman glass window, was retained and was modified as the REAR CAB wall of the new cab built into the steel enclosed front vestibule platform. Its glass removed and its hollow opening remaining was a perfect place for the electrical switches cabinet-box installation !

(c) -- The original cab operating controls located on the inside of the former open-platform cab front wall, were detached and re-installed on the inside of the now enclosed end platform steel shell wall under its provided new-cab window at the motorman's operating position. And the original wiring and piping extended a very short distance from the old cab and controls location (power and brake and etc), forward to the new cab location inside the enclosed end platform;

(d) -- Thus a novel, quick and simple air and electrical re-positioning process for the new controls on the one-cab control end of the new Q-Type Class Motor cars, directly over its Motor truck end.

(e) -- HOWEVER, this now had BOTH MOTOR TRUCKS (under their end operating cabs) facing EACH OTHER in each Q-Type 3-car A-B-C set when coupled together to form a six car, or nine car consist !!

ie; An "A Motor Car" Motor truck end would be coupled to either another "A Motor Car Motor Truck" end, or alternately copupled to the "C Motor Car Motor Truck" end.

This was NO PROBLEM weight-wise when operating on any 1900 or later built solid plate girder and solid EL columns' constructed Elevated Lines !!

However, this Motor to Motor truck direct coupling config on the Manhattan 3rd Ave El as the Q's were outfitted, would be weight-unacceptable. Additionally, the BMT's Peckham Motor trucks were heavier and had heavier (and faster) larger MOTORS than those lighter HP motors designed for the Manhattan El's under electrification in 1900-02.

RETURN TO THE COMPOSITES:
---------------------------------------------

Equipped with their Maximum Traction type trucks fitted with one motor on each of both trucks under each car -- built specially by the IRT shops in 1914 to make the Composites light weight for El use and avoid the issue of 4 motored axles facing each other coupled car to car --

The solution it was decided was to use the Composite trucks, one under BOTH ENDS of each A and C Motor car of the Q Types for 3rd Ave EL service use. And thus, as each motor truck had only a ONE MOTOR axle-wheelset, only two motored axles would be facing each other in any Q Motor & Cab end coupled to another Q Motor & Cab end.

The middle (both ends blind) "B" TRAILER CAR still retained it two Peckham BMT trailer trucks.

And thus, now explained why the Composites HAD to be retired - so their Max-Trax Motor Ttucks could live on from 1950 until 1969 under the Q Type Cars.

The removed powerful BMT EL Peckham MOTOR Trucks were ALL SCRAPPED "as surplus" --!!

That explains it all -- as I wrote earlier -- nothing is simple in documenting and answering IRT and BMT history !

regards - Joe F

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Dec 1 08:50:01 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by Express Rider on Thu Nov 30 15:12:10 2017.

My mom is 90 (and I'm 49...guess I was a surprise, LOL). When I was a kid, and right into my early adulthood, she told me stories of the east side els- and how the Second Ave Line went to 111th Street in Queens.

Now, she barely remembers any of it. They say long-term memory holds up better, and I tried recently to get her to talk about the els. Alas, I got no place.... :(

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Dec 1 09:10:04 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by Express Rider on Thu Nov 30 23:04:39 2017.

Hello Express Rider

That is the magical mystical aura of being young and growing up back then in a big city with such a (and relatively ancient then) vast transportation system.

Additional, as being young, everything is a wonderful (most times, heh) adventure, mystery, experience, event, to us -- and was to be -- and to be recalled. The EL to me was this massive even in my time ancient looking steel and wood "endless" (seemingly) serpentine line. Even more exciting was to just walk out my building, up the block 50 feet - up the ancient stairs to the EL and for a dime (and soon 15 cents) ride the EL downtown and to the top of the Bronx.

As I became a familiar fixture and thus became sort of "buddies" with the far much older (generally old IRISH) token clerks at my station (numerous times I did their coffee and soda runs to the adjacent soda shop for them) -- they let me duck under the thunka-daaaa-clunk heavy turnstile arms to ride the El trains for free !! A great deal at the time for me - especially as I at times had my uncle's 35mm camera at the time loaded with film provided by him for me!! The EL became my friend, my adventure seeker, my personal chariot thru Manhattan & Bronx -- with all its sounds, sights, aromas, myriad of tracks and switches\, junctions (especially mysterious "abandoned" one and tracks, heh) , hump express stations, double decked and alley running sections in S. Bronx -- and SAFE, CIVILIZED AND SECURE to ride. The worst you saw a few rare times on the 3rd Ave El, was a "bum" sitting on a seat snoozing in the corner of the EL car.

But WHAT A RIDE all upstairs, outside, high above the streets, -- from Chatham Square or City Hall to Gun Hill Road and back -- oh, to be able to do that again, back then..... and visit the neighborhoods the way they were back then ---

Regards - Joe F

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by VictorM on Fri Dec 1 10:42:55 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Dec 1 08:38:29 2017.

Thanks for the detailed information! I rode the 3rd Av el uptown PM express twice in 1952 and I seem to recall the motorman sat back from the front of the car to where the cab would have been had it been a gate car. I actually had a better view from the front RFW than the motorman! (unless my memory fails me), but you mentioned the cabs were moved forward when the cars were converted. Were these different cars?

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by randyo on Fri Dec 1 17:06:03 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by VictorM on Fri Dec 1 10:42:55 2017.

The IRT was a notoriously cheap outfit and didnít spend any money unless it could realize a saving greater than the cost. The IRT converted many of its gate cars to MUDC as a cost saving measure but rather than spend the extra money to move the cabs forward, it merely kept the cabs in their original position forcing the M/M to look through two vision glasses. The BMT and before that, the BRT was a more progressive company and when they converted some of their gate cars to the first group of MUDC cars, the C types, the company moved the M/Mís cabs forward to where the now enclosed open platforms had been, an improvement for the M/M over what the IRT did. Like the IRTĒs MUDCs, the Cs had outside hung doors rather than internal door pockets. When the next group of MUDC cars, the Qs were rebuilt from gate cars, the bMT followed the same procedure except that this time, door pockets were built into the sides of the Qs to prevent problems due to cold and rainy weather from affecting door operation. Ití interesting that the B of T opted to install completely "new" trucks on the Qs rather than merely moving the motor trucks to the opposite ends of the A and C cars which would have had the effect of preventing 2 motor trucks from ever being together at any time. Another interesting aspect of the Qsí assignment to the 3Av el is that they never received the single headlight over the end doors like the el cars and Composites had. One of the reasons for the installation of the headlights was that there were no signals on the lcl tks of the els and the headlights were used not only to aid the M/Mís visibility but in inclement and foggy weather, the headlights were illuminated on the REAR of the trains to make them more visible to following trains.

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Dec 1 20:04:05 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by VictorM on Fri Dec 1 10:42:55 2017.

Hello Victor M

Randy-O explained the two car type differences quite adequately. I well remember standing at the storm door window on the enclosed MUDC vestibule platform, and seeing behind me to my right, the M/M thru his inner cab window operating the train.

The Q types I recalled being different from the MUDC's, as I stood by the storm door window. The M/M and his cab door was now to my right with the M/M inside his relocated cab on the now enclosed end front vestibule platform

Here are two photos below to visually show you the difference.


BELOW -- 3/4 view of motorman cab side - IRT 3rd Ave EL MUDC EL Motor Car - Motorman cab is inside carbody behind the now enclosed former open end platform as seen by the open outside hung vestibule platfdorm side door

View northeast from the south end of the S/B E.161st Street local station platform, Bronx 3rd Ave El, circa 1954




=======================================================================

BELOW - 3/4 view of Motorman Cab side - IRT 3rd Ave. EL MUDC EL Motor Car - Motorman cab relocated forward onto the former open, now enclosed, end platform.

View northeast to rear motor car of a N/B Express train of Q Types passing by as seen from the south end of the S/B E.59th Street local station platform, Manhattan 3rd Ave. EL, circa 1955





regards - Joe F


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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by VictorM on Fri Dec 1 21:29:56 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Dec 1 20:04:05 2017.

Thanks to randyo and you for the information.

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sat Dec 2 07:05:34 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Dec 1 20:04:05 2017.



One point that we haven't mentioned regarding the transfer of the Q-Types from Queens to the 3rd Avenue El was that the marker lights had to be moved inward onto the clerestory section of the roof. The platform canopies on the el overhung the cars in such a way that they would have sheered of the marker lights if they were left in their old positions.

Larry, RedbirdR33

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sat Dec 2 07:22:57 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sat Dec 2 07:05:34 2017.

Hello Larry !

YES -- that is correct.

I didn't mention it because the info I gave was specifically related only to the question of why the composites did not operate past May 1950 (and were even taken off the IRT POLO Grounds Shuttle around then) and were all scrapped.

The marker lights being relocated during and after Dec. 1949 on the Q Type Motor cars had nothing to do with that event or issue !

It actually was the 1878-1880's built Manhattan Local Stations whose station platform canopies overhung the edge of the station platforms, that caused the problem of striking the BMT division style outboard placed roof marker lights. It happened on the test train of Q Type cars on the Manhattan 3rd Ave EL in IIRC, Dec. 1949


If you recall, some of the oldest earliest BMT Wood EL gate cars when they were converted from Steam Loco hauled trailer cars to Motor Cars, in 1899 thru 1901 had their newly installed roof marker lights placed in the tradition IRT position, at the bottom of the higher clerestory roof. And they remained that was thru their service lives.

regards ! - Joe F

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Dec 2 15:49:15 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Dec 1 08:38:29 2017.

The 6th & 9th Ave els' motor trucks faced south and the 2nd & 3rd Ave els ones faced north, to continue one of the old Manhattan el's operating rules. The tender end of the Forneys faced south on the 6th & 9th, and north on the 2nd and 3rd.

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sat Dec 2 16:50:53 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by Elkeeper on Sat Dec 2 15:49:15 2017.

Hello ELKEEPER

If you fully read my (long) post about the Composites (re: question as to why were they removed from service) -- you would have seen this same fact (Below) already mentioned by me in my historical recitation...
=====================================================================
Copy-paste-quoted

...." (1) -- Therefore, strict rule: NO TWO MOTOR CARS could be coupled together with both Motor trucks facing each other !

(2) -- Therefore, on the West Side IRT 6th & 9th Ave. EL's, all Elevated Motor Car "motor trucks" were at the SOUTH-facing end of each motor car;

(3) -- And on the East Side IRT EL's, all motor trucks were at the NORTH-facing end of each motor car;....."
=====================================================================

And yes, correct for the Forney Steam Locos - (Cab-first or Tender-first running) but near the end of steam year 1902 I think that positioning was a crap shoot, heh

regards - Joe F


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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by Express Rider on Sat Dec 2 18:19:24 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by MainR3664 on Fri Dec 1 08:50:01 2017.

Those stories your Mother told were a bit of living history. Were you able to write any of them down, or at least remember the main details?

I'm sorry to hear about your Mom's memory. I'm glad at 90 you still have her and can visit with her.

A childhood friend and neighbor, his mother grew up in Astoria, and told me her memories of taking the Astoria line to the 2nd ave. el over the bridge when she went into Manhattan with her friends.

In my former apartment complex, we had an elderly Brooklyn woman who remembered 5th ave. el service on the Culver Line. How she described it was 'the trains on the Culver line were different... not like the Brighton.' I asked her what she meant and she said the cars were older and wooden.

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Dec 2 18:31:42 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sat Dec 2 16:50:53 2017.

My guess is that they ran the Forney locomotives either tender-first or cab-first to avoid switching confusion at South Ferry.

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by randyo on Sat Dec 2 19:37:04 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Dec 1 20:04:05 2017.

Although I never recall seeing it used, I read somewhere that the inside vision glass of the M/Mís cab could swing open to block passengers from standing directly in front of the M/M while he was operating. I do recall standing directly in front of the M/M on an MUDC and having him bang on the window and yell for me to get out of the way.

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by Bzuck on Sat Dec 2 21:17:00 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by Express Rider on Sat Dec 2 18:19:24 2017.

I ran a birthday charter at SLTM earlier this year where there were four generations of the family on my car. The great grandmother who must have been in her 90ís and had a clear mind told me all about the trolley lines that ran out of New Haven. She knew far more history than I could ever remember.

I was very impressed and moved. Itís occasions like this that make it a joy to operate there.

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by Express Rider on Sat Dec 2 21:19:42 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by Bzuck on Sat Dec 2 21:17:00 2017.

What a great family story!
You are so fortunate to have, listen to and share stories with your great grandmother and all your family.



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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by Bzuck on Sat Dec 2 21:44:13 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by Express Rider on Sat Dec 2 21:19:42 2017.

Not my family. I am an operator at SLTM. This was a family on a charter where I was the operator.

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by Express Rider on Sat Dec 2 21:52:21 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by Bzuck on Sat Dec 2 21:44:13 2017.

Oh. Thanks for clarifying.

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Dec 3 09:28:58 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by Elkeeper on Sat Dec 2 18:31:42 2017.

Hello ELKEEPER

That would make good, proper sense. Also, the single "east to west" connector track of the " Y " shaped South Ferry Terminal was how the Motor trucks on Electric IRT EL MU cars either faced NORTH or South !!

It was common to use that connector track between the West & East Side IRT El's to transfer equipment between lines and repair shops.

By the way, that connector track was original part of a two track with single island platform TERMINAL station for the original 6th & 9th Avenue EL;'s BEFORE the 2nd & 3rd Ave EL's were built and connector at South Ferry, creating the later larger "Y" shaped terminal that existed fully intact into late 1940.

So here is another hopefully interesting history lesson
for the obvious known small few here who may even be interested !!

Here are some rare photos in my collection I found nearly 50 years ago that show the original 4-15-1877 opened South Ferry terminal of the 9th Ave EL whose structure soon later provided that South Ferry connector link between the west and east side EL's


BELOW is aerial image looking west due north to the August 1878 opened new "Y" shaped South Ferry EL Terminal to unite the then new 2nd & 3rd Ave EL's entering via Front Street from the east, to the earlier built & 9th (and soon 6th) Avenue EL entering from the west by April 15, 1877. I marked with arrows the location of the original April 1877 9th Ave EL terminal Elevated structure.





BELOW image is a similar angle to top photo, view west due north, showing the original South Ferry Terminal location for the 9th Avenue EL coming south out of Greenwich Street and east across Battery Park parallel to then State Street at right





BELOW is a similar angle view but from Battery Park ground level view west due north, under the original EL structure and small single island platform original South Ferry Terminal Station





BELOW is an overhead view street map of the Battery Park area showing the 2-track layout and location of the April 1877 9th Ave EL South Ferry Terminal Station, indicated by overlaid GREEN LINES and graphics. And by this photograph's time the original station long ago removed, and the remains of its El structure solely serving as a 2-track modified connector-track structure as seen between the 9th & 6th Ave EL's coming in from left, west, and 2nd & 3rd Ave EL's coming in from right, east, to the new "Y" shaped junction terminal station.

NOTE: The connection of the two 2nd & 3rd Ave EL tracks from the terminal station area to the Front Street end of the station, to the line eastward into Front Street, is drawn up a bit incorrectly. It actually was a short 3 track structure there east into Front Street.
(see the image following the one below for correct track plan)





BELOW is a compressed but somewhat more accurate track map showing the former 1877 terminal structure and track work re-purposed as a connector track between west and east side EL lines. I drew in the original terminal 2 tracks in red lines and single island platform station as a blue line for comparison purposes.





Here is an AERIAL PHOTO over the same area as MAP ABOVE, with green graphics showing the original 9th Ave EL terminal in 1877 overlaid over the August 1878 created later new Y terminal station-complex elevated






BELOW is a view north across Battery Park, from the original South Ferry Ferry Terminal Headhouse building entry portals, towards the original April 15, 1877 opened terminal Station of the 9th Avenue EL along State Street BEFORE the 2nd & 3rd Ave EL's reached South Ferry from the east (right) side via Front Street by August 1878.





BELOW is a view south east from the east (Front St.) near bumper-end of the original South Ferry terminal island platform station of the 9th Ave EL in 1877 with its stairways to its single island platform above heading down into Battery Park along State Street. State street roadway comes west from the right and turns 90 degrees to pass under the EL station and head south towards the Ferry Terminal. The Ferry terminal is about one block to the left (south)





BELOW is a an opposite view (of above photo) now looking southeast from State Street along north edge of Battery park towards the east bumper-end of the original April 15, 1877 opened 9th Ave EL's single island platform South Ferry Terminal Station a block north of the Ferry Terminal Headhouse. FRONT STREET is seen ending at State Street, just past the east bumper-end of the EL structure, and this is where the 2nd & 3rd Ave. EL structure will enter westward and merge with this 1877 structure by 1878 to form the new "Y" junction terminal with the 9th & 6th Ave EL's with all 4 EL lines then connecting south one block and directly into the Ferry Terminal Headhouse proper.

State Street is seen in the foreground heading north (to the left) from the Ferry Terminal Headhouse out of view to the right. And,out of view to left of the photographer, it will immediately turn 90 degree due west heading towards the Hudson River





Well, again, for those obviously few here who may have enjoyed this history lesson, classroom is now closed !

regards - Joe F

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by VictorM on Sun Dec 3 09:41:25 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Dec 3 09:28:58 2017.

Thanks for the pictures and drawings! In that second picture from the bottom were those double decker cars?

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by chud1 on Sun Dec 3 09:54:42 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Dec 3 09:28:58 2017.

5 drooling stars out of 5 drooling stars.
chud1.
:).....

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Dec 3 12:02:44 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by VictorM on Sun Dec 3 09:41:25 2017.

Hello Victor

No...those dropped-side El cars were originally the first replacement cars delivered by 1872 for the few original cable-hauled cars. The 2nd generation cars were as built and as originally called at the time, Shad Belly Cars. Designed that way because of the riding public's fear of the cars being top heavy and falling off the EL structures, fears allayed by having passengers enter at platform level, and STEP DOWN into a lowered carbody. Thus "lower center of gravity (weight) principal.

They were towed by tiny (originally) "steam dummy locomotives" (predecessors to the standard Forneys of the late 1870's) designed to be disguises are passenger car bodies so as, heh, not to scare horses below.

See photo below --- view north in 1871 to train which is in layup storage on the single and only ORIGINAL track EL running along the east sidewalk line of Greenwich Street, lower Manhattan immediately south of the Yard and Terminal singe curved lead switch and track are located.





The view below is looking north in 1871 at the south end of the original 1868-1869 single track EL structure along the east sidewalk line of Greenwich Street. This short section of 1/2 block EL and track is at this time, until extended to Battery Park by April 1877, solely a one train layup track. In the foreground, the horse car tracks are turning east (right) into STATE STREET. Battery Park is behind the photographer. It's last station on Greenwich Street was about 3 blocks north, and a curved single track connection about 1/2 block north from the track " bumper crosstie" turned right (east) immediately in front of the building wall sign showing " 13" , into private property between Greenwich Street and Broadway, where a small layup yard and small repair shop was located, and a block east was the Terminal EL Station located at the rear of the Company's small office building located at #7 Broadway

This point is where the EL, once it was dual tracked (the opposite separate EL structure and its track built over, along west Greenwich St.sidewalk)--it was extended by April 15, 1877, to the original South Ferry Terminal Station facing Front Street that I previous described in my previous posting.




Here below is a photo looking southeast in 1871 across Greenwich to a train sitting on the 1/2 block long southward tail single layup track, upon the original single-track sole EL structure built in 1869. Seen also are the layup yard and terminal station lead connection curved track turning east to head to the rear of # 7 Broadway Terminal Station and offices building, a block to the east. Seen is one of the shad belly cars beside the repair shops in the parallel layup yard.





BELOW is a north view in 1871 from Greenwich street showing the single curved yard lead track and switch (at rear of 2nd trailing EL car) connection from the EL structure track east to the yard and Terminal Station and Company Offices a block further east at # 7 Broadway.






BELOW is a view in 1871 showing a train and crew along the single track sole elevated structure along the east sidewalk of Greenwich Street somewhere just above the terminal and yard.






These "Shad Belly" early El cars had a very vague similarity to the principal of the many decades later early 1950's double decker commuter cars (of ie; LIRR) and present so called bi-level commuter cars, where the passengers step downward to a lower level seating area, but however also step upward to the higher level seating area.

A few years after the first regular and official expansion and operation of the original 9th Avenue EL started around 1870-1, operated by steam locomotive hauled trains, these "Shad Belly" cars were later modified by 1873-4 with standard station-platform level full floors.

Soon more standard floor-height open end platform newer open end EL cars were ordered and delivered by 1874 thru 1876 -- some with tiny center doors in the car sides as seen in the last photo of my series, and eventually the few shad belly cars were rebuilt to standard floor bodies.


regards - Joe F

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by VictorM on Sun Dec 3 12:33:20 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Dec 3 12:02:44 2017.

Thanks again.

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Sun Dec 3 20:21:01 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Dec 1 08:38:29 2017.

Thanks!

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Dec 3 21:06:40 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Dec 1 20:04:05 2017.

My thanks to JOE and Randy for all of their info. If I remember correctly, several Composites were scrapped around 1938. Do either of you know why?

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Sun Dec 3 22:05:15 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by Elkeeper on Sun Dec 3 21:06:40 2017.

Service cuts maybe?

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Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953)

Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Dec 4 04:20:01 2017, in response to Re: Nighttime Shot of 3rd Ave El at 67th Street (1953), posted by randyo on Sat Dec 2 19:37:04 2017.

Hello Randy O


Heh-- seems we BOTH (and likely many other kids, folks,) had the same MUDC Motorman in Cab experience.

When an MUDC first car I was in and standing at the storm door glass, was stopped at an EL station, I think it was E. 89th or E.84th Street, the first car's front end was a tad past the south end of the D/T platform. It likely was a 6 car consist local.

Anyway, I went over to the (on my right) side sliding door on the station platform side of the train -- but the door was just past the catwalk stairway. (NOTE: all MUDC front car "front vestibule" and rear car "rear vestibule doors" were "cut out" from the MUDC system (as likewise on Low-V and Steinway subway car MUDC consist of the time)

I wanted to look down thru the one glass pane in the side door to the sidewalk below past the catwalk railing to see if I knew anyone, or just to see the street scene and pedestrians. When the motorman started the train, he banged on the glass and with an scowl on his face, waved his arm to me to indicate "scram".

I ended up going across the vestibule to the opposite front end window on the opposite side of the storm door.

The interior front cab window and its frame was fixed in the interior bulkhead as it was when the cab was behind the front open platform. Also NOTE in the photo I provided again, BELOW, at E. 161St EL Station, the MUDC Car with its side door open. Notice the two steel safety bars across the motorman cab inner widow -- to protect it from errant shoulders on entering and exiting riders. This (2 bars) was done to ALL windows (4 of them) in the vestibule area -- the forward new steel bulkhead two outer windows and the inner wood bulkhead two inner windows, on both Motor AND trailer cars !





However, my father who worked on the EL stated that in early MUDC years, there was a chain linked across the platform from an eyelet attached on the cab wall front, across to an eyelet on the front steel shell wall to the right of the storm door. The chain blocked off that 1/3rd of the enclosed vestibule platform in front of the motorman's cab. The chain was removed and stored in the cab in cars that were mid train.

By the very early 1930's, the chain idea and the chain (likely a
"P I T A" for crews) gradually all but disappeared as most passengers knew well by then (since MUDC control on EL cars started in 1924) NOT to stand in front of the motorman inner glass window on the front leading car platform. Especially in rush hour heavy passenger loads. Or the motorman would "raise hell..."

For those not aware (well, that is most people here, heh) the vestibule floor width from inside the original bulkhead wall, forward to the front steel outer wall and storm door, was only 29 inches !! About the width of a 30' wide closet door.

It was a real problem with rush hour passengers entering & exiting as it was a very tight fit for 2 average sized people to pass each other "sideways" on said platform. The opening to the station platforms by the side sliding doors was 29 inches, although the steel sliding doors themselves were built a standard 36 inches wide ! See 2 photos BELOW:

MUDC trailer at left with MUDC Motor at right, doors opened to 29" wide vestibule opening



IRT Conductor between MUDC Motor car at left and Trailer car at right





Part of the opened sliding side exit-entry doors and part of one of its two door glass windows, was actually over the corner post of the wood carbody's original front bulkhead when the door was
opened !!! You can see that in the photo I provided BELOW:--

On the enclosed vestibule platform facing side sliding door on an MUDC TRAILER car





The motorman cab door was designed to swing 180 degrees -- to open fully into, towards, the carbody center aisle, and to close fully over (and protect) the control and brake stand and other equipment, when the cab was "opened" in mid train cars for a passenger to sit on the single drop leaf seat affixed to the car side-wall under the motormna's side window.

The MUDC Car motorman could have swung his cab door open fully across the center aisle to block off most of the enclosed vestibule entry portal, at the inside (original gate car front wall) vestibule forward wall. That would leave him exposed to the passengers which could be a distraction... so I presume that was rarely, if ever done. I never saw it done.

regards - Joe F

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