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| Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly (1426161) | |
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| (1426161) | |
Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by italianstallion on Wed Feb 1 11:43:55 2017 MTA release* * * Since the line opened on January 1 with three new stations and a new entrance at 63rd Street, ridership has grown steadily by approximately 8,000 daily riders per week, hitting 155,000 daily riders on Friday, January 27th. * * * The MTA also released figures for the nearby Lexington Avenue Line, a notoriously crowded line in New York City, which has reduced weekday ridership in four key stations, 68th Street, 77th Street, 86th Street and 96th Street. According to new ridership figures, the number of daily riders entering and exiting the four Upper East Side Lexington Avenue Line Stations declined by an average of 27 percent on weekdays and as much as 46 percent during peak morning rush hours of 8 - 9 a.m., as compared to the same period last year. * * * Second Avenue Subway Total Ridership: 155,500 riders Ridership on Jan. 27, based on MetroCard data and surveys conducted manually by New York City Transit personnel: 72nd Street: 51,450 86th Street: 45,800 96th Street: 30,100 63rd Street (transferring to and from the F Subway): 28,150 Lexington Avenue Upper East Side Stations: 327,440 riders in 2016; 240,270 riders in 2017 Average ridership during the fourth week of January based on daily entries and exits: 68th Street: 65,890 in 2016; 44,700 in 2017 77th Street: 74,010 in 2016; 59,560 in 2017 86th Street: 132,400 in 2016; 94,750 in 2017 96th Street: 55,140 in 2016; 41,260 in 2017 |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Wed Feb 1 13:13:37 2017, in response to Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by italianstallion on Wed Feb 1 11:43:55 2017. Interesting, thanks! |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Wed Feb 1 13:33:01 2017, in response to Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by italianstallion on Wed Feb 1 11:43:55 2017. That's very good news. I can't wait to ride it. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Feb 1 13:40:30 2017, in response to Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by italianstallion on Wed Feb 1 11:43:55 2017. SAS SAS LEX LEX 2016 LEX 2017 2017/2016 SAS/Lex72nd 51,450 68th 65,890 44,700 68% 49% 77th 74,010 59,560 80% 86th 45,800 86th 132,400 94,750 72% 48% 96th 30,100 96th 55,140 41,260 75% 73% 127,350 327,440 240,270 73% 53% |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Feb 1 13:46:56 2017, in response to Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by italianstallion on Wed Feb 1 11:43:55 2017. Doing better that I thought it would |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Feb 1 15:49:16 2017, in response to Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by italianstallion on Wed Feb 1 11:43:55 2017. From: Stephen BaumanTo: steve@localhost Subject: subchat post Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 14:34:55 -0500 X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.14.1 (GTK+ 2.24.31; x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu) The turnstile counts for Jan 27th won't be available on the MTA website until this Saturday. I'll record the counts and post them as usual. The last date was the 26th. The counts for the 3 stops were: 72 ST-2 AVE (Q): 01/26/2017,,,,86 ST-2 AVE (Q): 01/26/2017,,,,96 ST-2 AVE (Q): 01/26/2017,,,,3 stops,, Time Range,Entries,Exits,Total,Time Range,Entries,Exits,Total,Time Range,Entries,Exits,Total,entries,exits,Total 00:00:00-04:00:00,203,171,374,00:00:00-04:00:00,156,309,465,00:00:00-04:00:00,110,346,456,469,826,1295 04:00:00-08:00:00,1698,3043,4741,04:00:00-08:00:00,2373,985,3358,04:00:00-08:00:00,1802,1108,2910,5873,5136,11009 08:00:00-12:00:00,6894,7620,14514,08:00:00-12:00:00,9215,2718,11933,08:00:00-12:00:00,5389,2357,7746,21498,12695,34193 12:00:00-16:00:00,5460,3957,9417,12:00:00-16:00:00,4042,3431,7473,12:00:00-16:00:00,3232,2436,5668,12734,9824,22558 16:00:00-20:00:00,9935,6607,16542,16:00:00-20:00:00,5321,7147,12468,16:00:00-20:00:00,3737,4788,8525,18993,18542,37535 20:00:00-00:00:00,2485,2592,5077,20:00:00-00:00:00,2035,3634,5669,20:00:00-00:00:00,1044,2328,3372,5564,8554,14118 Total,26675,23990,50665,Total,23142,18224,41366,Total,15314,13363,28677,65131,55577,120708 What's most important for the SAS $4B justification is its use during the peak period. There's still a lot of capacity during the off peak hours. It would be nice, if the MTA published hourly turnstile counts. However, I'll prorate the 4 hour figure by the number of scheduled Lex Ave Local trains per hour to get an approximation. Here's the spreadsheet analysis for estimated hourly entrances and its equivalent number of Lex Ave locals. Hr,Count,4Hr ,Hr Ratio,Est Ent,Trains 0,4,,0.286,134.0,0.1 1,4,,0.286,134.0,0.1 2,3,,0.214,100.5,0.1 3,3,14,0.214,100.5,0.1 4,3,,0.086,503.4,0.5 5,5,,0.143,839.0,0.8 6,11,,0.314,1,845.8,1.7 7,16,35,0.457,2,684.8,2.4 8,23,,0.329,7,063.6,6.4 9,16,,0.229,4,913.8,4.5 10,16,,0.229,4,913.8,4.5 11,15,70,0.214,4,606.7,4.2 12,15,,0.254,3,237.5,2.9 13,15,,0.254,3,237.5,2.9 14,15,,0.254,3,237.5,2.9 15,14,59,0.237,3,021.6,2.7 16,20,,0.294,5,586.2,5.1 17,20,,0.294,5,586.2,5.1 18,15,,0.221,4,189.6,3.8 19,13,68,0.191,3,631.0,3.3 20,12,,0.333,1,854.7,1.7 21,10,,0.278,1,545.6,1.4 22,8,,0.222,1,236.4,1.1 23,6,36,0.167,927.3,0.8 Let's assume that all the SAS entries would have used the downtown Lex. The same load levels could have been achieved with the addition of a max of 7 tph on the local track during the peak 8-9am hour. These extra trains could have been short turned at 3rd Ave-138th St. The running time between 3rd Ave-138th St and Brooklyn Bridge is 37 minutes or 75 minutes (1.25 hrs) for the round trip. The MTA's estimated per hour operating cost for a 10 car train is $2746.30, as per the 2015 NTD Report. The cost for a year's worth of the extra trains would be 250 x 7 x $2746.30 x 1.25 or $6 Million of additional operating costs. There are 11 Q's operating between 57th St-7th Ave and 96th St-2nd Ave between 8 and 9 am. The running time is 7.5 minutes or 15 minutes (0.25 hrs) for the round trip. The yearly operating cost for this service is: 250 x 11 x $2746.30 x .25 or $1.9 Million of additional operating cost. The annual operating cost savings for the SAS is $4.1 Million for a capital investment of $4 Billion. It would take approximately a millennium to pay for this investment, assuming a zero interest rate. |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Feb 1 15:54:16 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Feb 1 15:49:16 2017. One minor flaw in the argument. The MTA is not capable of operating more trains between 8 AM and 9 AM. |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Feb 1 15:57:39 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Feb 1 15:49:16 2017. How much ridership came from buses ?Factor in some cost savings on slashing bus service, which is more labor-intensive per passenger than a 10 car train. The scandalously elaborate stations is what sent the cost to $4 Billion. What did each station cost ? |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Feb 1 16:04:27 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by AlM on Wed Feb 1 15:54:16 2017. MTA says they can't. Which is not the same as saying they can't. |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Feb 1 16:17:20 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by Joe V on Wed Feb 1 16:04:27 2017. Let's put it this way. They send not quite 30 trains into GCT from the north in the peak hour, and they have slightly fewer coming out than go in.Therefore they can't, at the moment. Could they change their operations in such a way as to allow more trains? Very likely. |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Feb 1 16:28:14 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by AlM on Wed Feb 1 16:17:20 2017. Did the not once run 36 TPH/100 sec intervals ? |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Feb 1 16:30:41 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by AlM on Wed Feb 1 15:54:16 2017. As I noted, they operate only 23 tph on the local. Adding 7 more would raise it to 30 tph. That's a level they used to operate, when rush hour policy was to operate at full tilt. The local is fairly straight; they don't have the switch at 125th St that expresses do.The MTA policy has been to equalize load levels on all lines during the rush hour. This has resulted in reducing service levels where load levels were warranted. This policy has had many consequences consequences. One consequence has been that riders cannot choose between slightly slower but emptier locals vs. more crowded expresses. Another consequence has been unbalanced merges and non-uniform headways. Both limit the ability to operate close to service level capacity. |
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| (1426188) | |
Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Feb 1 16:30:41 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by AlM on Wed Feb 1 15:54:16 2017. As I noted, they operate only 23 tph on the local. Adding 7 more would raise it to 30 tph. That's a level they used to operate, when rush hour policy was to operate at full tilt. The local is fairly straight; they don't have the switch at 125th St that expresses do.The MTA policy has been to equalize load levels on all lines during the rush hour. This has resulted in reducing service levels where load levels were warranted. This policy has had many consequences consequences. One consequence has been that riders cannot choose between slightly slower but emptier locals vs. more crowded expresses. Another consequence has been unbalanced merges and non-uniform headways. Both limit the ability to operate close to service level capacity. |
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| (1426190) | |
Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Feb 1 16:39:21 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by Joe V on Wed Feb 1 16:28:14 2017. That was then, this is now.There are far heavier penalties for running a red signal than there were 50 years ago. I can see the way the train operators come into 14th Street from the north. They are very hesitant and stay far behind the train ahead of them. Years ago they'd hit a signal just as it turned from red to yellow. Now you're lucky to see them go through even a yellow signal ever. |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by Michael549 on Wed Feb 1 16:43:54 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Feb 1 15:49:16 2017. There are several assumptions that you are making but I am only going to point to one of them.Your words in context: "Let's assume that all the SAS entries would have used the downtown Lex. The same load levels could have been achieved with the addition of a max of 7 tph on the local track during the peak 8-9am hour. These extra trains could have been short turned at 3rd Ave-138th St. The running time between 3rd Ave-138th St and Brooklyn Bridge is 37 minutes or 75 minutes (1.25 hrs) for the round trip." --- I question your statement: "These extra trains could have been short turned at 3rd Ave-138th St." In the midst of the #6 Pelham Bay Express trains using the middle track and merging west of the station to the downtown track along with Parkchester local trains - a series of trains are also supposed to use the middle track/platform to terminate and relay trains at the peak am rush hour periods. I doubt it. Mike |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Feb 1 18:52:45 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by AlM on Wed Feb 1 16:39:21 2017. Because management puts the fear of God into them. Hit a signal, lose your job. |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by ftgreeneg on Wed Feb 1 19:57:04 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Feb 1 18:52:45 2017. That's exactly what happens. Coming iut of school new hires are scared into thinking they have to be perfect or be fired. |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Feb 2 04:45:14 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by Michael549 on Wed Feb 1 16:43:54 2017. I question your statement: "These extra trains could have been short turned at 3rd Ave-138th St."In the midst of the #6 Pelham Bay Express trains using the middle track and merging west of the station to the downtown track along with Parkchester local trains - a series of trains are also supposed to use the middle track/platform to terminate and relay trains at the peak am rush hour periods. I doubt it. Is that your own alternate fact, or did you accept it from another source? Here's the current schedule for Grand Central arrivals. The columns are the trip id, route, first stop, when it departs from that stop and its Grand Central arrival time. It covers the morning peak from 7 to 10 am for Grand Central arrivals. "trip id";"route";"first stop";"departs";"GC arrival: "038000_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"06:20:00";"07:01:30" "038900_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"06:29:00";"07:06:00" "038800_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"06:28:00";"07:09:30" "039650_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"06:36:30";"07:13:30" "039500_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"06:35:00";"07:17:30" "040000_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"06:40:00";"07:21:30" "040850_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"06:48:30";"07:25:30" "040800_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"06:48:00";"07:29:30" "041600_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"06:56:00";"07:33:30" "041400_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"06:54:00";"07:37:30" "041900_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"06:59:00";"07:42:30" "042750_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"07:07:30";"07:46:30" "042650_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:06:30";"07:50:00" "043500_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"07:15:00";"07:54:00" "043400_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:14:00";"07:57:30" "044200_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"07:22:00";"08:01:00" "043950_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:19:30";"08:04:00" "044250_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:22:30";"08:06:00" "045050_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"07:30:30";"08:10:30" "044900_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:29:00";"08:13:30" "045650_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"07:36:30";"08:16:30" "045450_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:34:30";"08:19:30" "046150_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"07:41:30";"08:22:00" "045850_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:38:30";"08:24:30" "046200_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:42:00";"08:27:00" "046950_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"07:49:30";"08:30:00" "046550_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:45:30";"08:32:30" "047500_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"07:55:00";"08:35:30" "047250_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:52:30";"08:38:30" "047650_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:56:30";"08:41:30" "048350_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"08:03:30";"08:44:00" "048000_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:00:00";"08:46:00" "048350_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:03:30";"08:48:30" "049100_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"08:11:00";"08:51:00" "048800_6..S08R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:08:00";"08:53:00" "049550_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"08:15:30";"08:55:30" "049300_6..S08R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:13:00";"08:57:30" "050000_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"08:20:00";"08:59:30" "052000_6..S06R";"6";"3 Av - 138 St";"08:40:00";"09:02:00" "050000_6..S08R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:20:00";"09:04:00" "050750_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"08:27:30";"09:06:30" "050550_6..S08R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:25:30";"09:09:30" "053100_6..S06R";"6";"3 Av - 138 St";"08:51:00";"09:12:30" "051650_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"08:36:30";"09:15:30" "051500_6..S08R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:35:00";"09:19:00" "052400_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"08:44:00";"09:22:30" "052200_6..S08R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:42:00";"09:26:00" "054850_6..S06R";"6";"3 Av - 138 St";"09:08:30";"09:30:00" "053500_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"08:55:00";"09:33:00" "053200_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:52:00";"09:36:30" "054300_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"09:03:00";"09:40:00" "054000_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"09:00:00";"09:44:30" "055200_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"09:12:00";"09:49:00" "055050_6..S08R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"09:10:30";"09:53:00" "057700_6..S06R";"6";"3 Av - 138 St";"09:37:00";"09:57:00" You will note that the Grand Central arrivals at 9:02:00, 9:12:30, 9:30:00 and 9:57:00 originated from the 3rd Ave - 138th St station. |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Feb 2 04:45:14 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by Michael549 on Wed Feb 1 16:43:54 2017. I question your statement: "These extra trains could have been short turned at 3rd Ave-138th St."In the midst of the #6 Pelham Bay Express trains using the middle track and merging west of the station to the downtown track along with Parkchester local trains - a series of trains are also supposed to use the middle track/platform to terminate and relay trains at the peak am rush hour periods. I doubt it. Is that your own alternate fact, or did you accept it from another source? Here's the current schedule for Grand Central arrivals. The columns are the trip id, route, first stop, when it departs from that stop and its Grand Central arrival time. It covers the morning peak from 7 to 10 am for Grand Central arrivals. "trip id";"route";"first stop";"departs";"GC arrival: "038000_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"06:20:00";"07:01:30" "038900_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"06:29:00";"07:06:00" "038800_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"06:28:00";"07:09:30" "039650_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"06:36:30";"07:13:30" "039500_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"06:35:00";"07:17:30" "040000_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"06:40:00";"07:21:30" "040850_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"06:48:30";"07:25:30" "040800_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"06:48:00";"07:29:30" "041600_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"06:56:00";"07:33:30" "041400_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"06:54:00";"07:37:30" "041900_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"06:59:00";"07:42:30" "042750_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"07:07:30";"07:46:30" "042650_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:06:30";"07:50:00" "043500_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"07:15:00";"07:54:00" "043400_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:14:00";"07:57:30" "044200_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"07:22:00";"08:01:00" "043950_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:19:30";"08:04:00" "044250_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:22:30";"08:06:00" "045050_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"07:30:30";"08:10:30" "044900_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:29:00";"08:13:30" "045650_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"07:36:30";"08:16:30" "045450_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:34:30";"08:19:30" "046150_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"07:41:30";"08:22:00" "045850_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:38:30";"08:24:30" "046200_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:42:00";"08:27:00" "046950_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"07:49:30";"08:30:00" "046550_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:45:30";"08:32:30" "047500_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"07:55:00";"08:35:30" "047250_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:52:30";"08:38:30" "047650_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:56:30";"08:41:30" "048350_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"08:03:30";"08:44:00" "048000_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:00:00";"08:46:00" "048350_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:03:30";"08:48:30" "049100_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"08:11:00";"08:51:00" "048800_6..S08R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:08:00";"08:53:00" "049550_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"08:15:30";"08:55:30" "049300_6..S08R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:13:00";"08:57:30" "050000_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"08:20:00";"08:59:30" "052000_6..S06R";"6";"3 Av - 138 St";"08:40:00";"09:02:00" "050000_6..S08R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:20:00";"09:04:00" "050750_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"08:27:30";"09:06:30" "050550_6..S08R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:25:30";"09:09:30" "053100_6..S06R";"6";"3 Av - 138 St";"08:51:00";"09:12:30" "051650_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"08:36:30";"09:15:30" "051500_6..S08R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:35:00";"09:19:00" "052400_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"08:44:00";"09:22:30" "052200_6..S08R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:42:00";"09:26:00" "054850_6..S06R";"6";"3 Av - 138 St";"09:08:30";"09:30:00" "053500_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"08:55:00";"09:33:00" "053200_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:52:00";"09:36:30" "054300_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"09:03:00";"09:40:00" "054000_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"09:00:00";"09:44:30" "055200_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"09:12:00";"09:49:00" "055050_6..S08R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"09:10:30";"09:53:00" "057700_6..S06R";"6";"3 Av - 138 St";"09:37:00";"09:57:00" You will note that the Grand Central arrivals at 9:02:00, 9:12:30, 9:30:00 and 9:57:00 originated from the 3rd Ave - 138th St station. |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Feb 2 05:22:28 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by AlM on Wed Feb 1 16:17:20 2017. Let's put it this way. They send not quite 30 trains into GCT from the north in the peak hour, and they have slightly fewer coming out than go in.What's important is whether or not those 30 trains are put in at uniform intervals. Here's the current local schedule, showing GC arrivals for the local. "trip id";"route";"start";"departure";"arrival" "038000_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"06:20:00";"07:01:30" "038900_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"06:29:00";"07:06:00" "038800_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"06:28:00";"07:09:30" "039650_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"06:36:30";"07:13:30" "039500_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"06:35:00";"07:17:30" "040000_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"06:40:00";"07:21:30" "040850_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"06:48:30";"07:25:30" "040800_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"06:48:00";"07:29:30" "041600_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"06:56:00";"07:33:30" "041400_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"06:54:00";"07:37:30" "041900_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"06:59:00";"07:42:30" "042750_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"07:07:30";"07:46:30" "042650_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:06:30";"07:50:00" "043500_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"07:15:00";"07:54:00" "043400_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:14:00";"07:57:30" "044200_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"07:22:00";"08:01:00" "043950_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:19:30";"08:04:00" "044250_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:22:30";"08:06:00" "045050_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"07:30:30";"08:10:30" "044900_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:29:00";"08:13:30" "045650_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"07:36:30";"08:16:30" "045450_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:34:30";"08:19:30" "046150_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"07:41:30";"08:22:00" "045850_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:38:30";"08:24:30" "046200_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:42:00";"08:27:00" "046950_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"07:49:30";"08:30:00" "046550_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:45:30";"08:32:30" "047500_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"07:55:00";"08:35:30" "047250_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:52:30";"08:38:30" "047650_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"07:56:30";"08:41:30" "048350_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"08:03:30";"08:44:00" "048000_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:00:00";"08:46:00" "048350_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:03:30";"08:48:30" "049100_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"08:11:00";"08:51:00" "048800_6..S08R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:08:00";"08:53:00" "049550_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"08:15:30";"08:55:30" "049300_6..S08R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:13:00";"08:57:30" "050000_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"08:20:00";"08:59:30" "052000_6..S06R";"6";"3 Av - 138 St";"08:40:00";"09:02:00" "050000_6..S08R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:20:00";"09:04:00" "050750_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"08:27:30";"09:06:30" "050550_6..S08R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:25:30";"09:09:30" "053100_6..S06R";"6";"3 Av - 138 St";"08:51:00";"09:12:30" "051650_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"08:36:30";"09:15:30" "051500_6..S08R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:35:00";"09:19:00" "052400_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"08:44:00";"09:22:30" "052200_6..S08R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:42:00";"09:26:00" "054850_6..S06R";"6";"3 Av - 138 St";"09:08:30";"09:30:00" "053500_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"08:55:00";"09:33:00" "053200_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:52:00";"09:36:30" "054300_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"09:03:00";"09:40:00" "054000_6..S02R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"09:00:00";"09:44:30" "055200_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"09:12:00";"09:49:00" "055050_6..S08R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"09:10:30";"09:53:00" "057700_6..S06R";"6";"3 Av - 138 St";"09:37:00";"09:57:00" You will notice only two instances where Grand Central arrivals are spaced at 30 tph: 8:04:00/8:06:00 and 9:02:00/9:04:00. In the first instance both trains originated at Pelham Bay Park. However, the follower left 3 minutes after its leader. The follower was able to make up 1 minute on its leader despite this being the peak period. The second instance is more complicated because the leader started at 3rd Ave and the follower from Pelham Bay Park. Here are snippets of their running taken at different stops along the way. At 3rd Ave St: "050750_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"08:27:30";"08:45:00" "050550_6..S08R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:25:30";"08:48:00" "053100_6..S06R";"6";"3 Av - 138 St";"08:51:00";"08:51:00" "051650_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"08:36:30";"08:54:00" At 86th St "049300_6..S08R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:13:00";"08:47:00" "050000_6..S03R";"6";"Parkchester";"08:20:00";"08:49:00" "052000_6..S06R";"6";"3 Av - 138 St";"08:40:00";"08:51:30" "050000_6..S08R";"6X";"Pelham Bay Park";"08:20:00";"08:53:30" The follower has made up that minute and is now 2 minutes behind its leader. You will also notice that the 0825 PBP and 0851 3AV have made up 30 seconds on their leaders. What you have is an example of followers making time on their leaders, and not having their headways being spread out. This suggests that 30 tph operation is quite possible and the principal problem will be to keep followers from trying to close the gap to their leaders. |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Feb 2 05:31:22 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by AlM on Wed Feb 1 16:39:21 2017. They are very hesitant and stay far behind the train ahead of them. Years ago they'd hit a signal just as it turned from red to yellow. Now you're lucky to see them go through even a yellow signal ever.If trains adhered to 120 second headways, they would encounter only green aspects except for the yellow/red signal within the station. There is great variability in how T/O's operate their trains with respect to cruising speed, braking and acceleration rates. It's this variability that reduces service levels. There are inexpensive ways to reduce such variability short of CBTC, ATO or building the SAS to live with the reduced service levels. |
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| (1426223) | |
Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Feb 2 05:31:22 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by AlM on Wed Feb 1 16:39:21 2017. They are very hesitant and stay far behind the train ahead of them. Years ago they'd hit a signal just as it turned from red to yellow. Now you're lucky to see them go through even a yellow signal ever.If trains adhered to 120 second headways, they would encounter only green aspects except for the yellow/red signal within the station. There is great variability in how T/O's operate their trains with respect to cruising speed, braking and acceleration rates. It's this variability that reduces service levels. There are inexpensive ways to reduce such variability short of CBTC, ATO or building the SAS to live with the reduced service levels. |
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| (1426231) | |
Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Feb 2 07:14:01 2017, in response to Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by italianstallion on Wed Feb 1 11:43:55 2017. So it's meeting its objectives- who'da thunk it? Now, they need to get cracking building north to 125th and south to FiDi... |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Feb 2 08:49:40 2017, in response to Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by italianstallion on Wed Feb 1 11:43:55 2017. I'm pleased to hear, if accurate, that there is a significant number of passenger transfers cross-platform at Lex/63rd. I wasn't buying into the idea that F to Q was only a cosmetic connection.Even if someone from Queens Blvd wanted, say, Union Square, and couldn't bear the R the whole way, taking the F to the Q, while perhaps taking slightly longer than E to the Lex, is probably much more of a sane and comfortable experience. |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Feb 2 08:54:06 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Feb 2 08:49:40 2017. I'm pleased to hear, if accurate, that there is a significant number of passenger transfers cross-platform at Lex/63rd.I didn't observe so much of that when I was there. What I observed was quite a few people heading downstairs, from the inbound Q and F to the outbound F and Q. |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Feb 2 08:55:26 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by AlM on Thu Feb 2 08:54:06 2017. Interesting, didn't think of that. Still pleased to hear it's more than an "accidental" meeting of two lines. |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Feb 2 09:08:52 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Feb 2 08:55:26 2017. I didn't think of it either until I saw it and thought "Huh, what?" |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by r33/r36 mainline on Thu Feb 2 10:56:39 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Feb 1 15:49:16 2017. I rode an downtown Q train from 72nd street on Saturday afternoon and didn't even get a seat! |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu Feb 2 11:11:17 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Feb 2 04:45:14 2017. There are several assumptions that you made but I only pointed to one of them.Your words in context: "Let's assume that all the SAS entries would have used the downtown Lex. The same load levels could have been achieved with the addition of a max of 7 tph on the local track during the peak 8-9am hour. These extra trains could have been short turned at 3rd Ave-138th St. --------- You gave us the train schedule, where you said, "It covers the morning peak from 7 to 10 am for Grand Central arrivals." --------- I questioned your statement: "These extra trains could have been short turned at 3rd Ave-138th St." In the midst of the #6 Pelham Bay Express trains using the middle track and merging west of the station to the downtown track along with Parkchester local trains - a series of trains are also supposed to use the middle track/platform to terminate and relay trains at the peak am rush hour periods. I doubted it. I doubted it due to the layout of the station and the amount of trains traveling through there at certain times, especially the busy am rush hours. I will grant that between the peak 8-9am hour, that two #6 trains - one at 8:40am, and another at 8:51an both depart during those times of 8-9am. (Per your schedule - "052000_6..S06R";"6";"3 Av - 138 St";"08:40:00";"09:02:00", and "053100_6..S06R";"6";"3 Av - 138 St";"08:51:00";"09:12:30") - both depart during those times of 8-9am. You then pointed to the following #6 trains: "054850_6..S06R";"6";"3 Av - 138 St";"09:08:30";"09:30:00" and "057700_6..S06R";"6";"3 Av - 138 St";"09:37:00";"09:57:00" - which could be argued exist outside of the peak am rush hour periods but exist on the shoulder periods. You will note that in your own schedule from 6:20m until 8:40am - THERE ARE NO - ZERO trains that depart from 3rd Ave-138th St." Mike |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu Feb 2 11:19:11 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Thu Feb 2 10:56:39 2017. In visiting the Second Avenue line on a Sunday in the afternoon a week ago - there was a very healthy number of folks in the stations and on the trains. After having late lunch/dinner in my old neighborhood around 83rd Street - the immediate arriving train after leaving the terminal had ALL of its seats filled at 86th Street.This was on a day, a rainy Sunday, that was just a regular day and the stations were filled with good numbers of folks. Mike |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Feb 2 12:23:14 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by Michael549 on Thu Feb 2 11:11:17 2017. In the midst of the #6 Pelham Bay Express trains using the middle track and merging west of the station to the downtown track along with Parkchester local trains - a series of trains are also supposed to use the middle track/platform to terminate and relay trains at the peak am rush hour periods. I doubted it.I doubted it due to the layout of the station and the amount of trains traveling through there at certain times, especially the busy am rush hours. If you check the station layout, you will note there are switches both east (north) and west (south) of the station. Expresses can merge onto the local north of the station. This will leave the middle track free for short turning locals without interfering with through service. You will note that in your own schedule from 6:20m until 8:40am - THERE ARE NO - ZERO trains that depart from 3rd Ave-138th St." First, this is not "my own" schedule. It's taken from the GTFS schedule on the MTA's website. Second, what's important is whether the operation is feasible not what the MTA's current practices might be. The feasibility issue rests on the gap between a short turned train and a leading or following through one. That gap is 2 minutes for the desired 30 tph. When that positive demonstration occurs is immaterial because the short-turning does not affect through service. I showed that 8:40 leaving 3AV (9:02 GC arrival) did prevent its follower, the 8:20 express from Pelham, from maintaining that 2 minute gap. |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by K. Trout on Fri Feb 3 01:38:08 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Feb 2 08:55:26 2017. It's the same design as 7/53: same-direction transfers are on the same platform, or switch from downtown to uptown by going downstairs. |
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| (1426473) | |
Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 4 07:39:58 2017, in response to Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by italianstallion on Wed Feb 1 11:43:55 2017. Here are the turnstile counts for the SAS for 27 Jan, as per the MTA website.Enter: 65,767 Exit: 53,622 Total: 119,389 These are the turnstile counts for the three new stations (72, 86 and 96). A breakdown by the 3 stations for this date: station,enter,exit, total 72,26562,23123,49685 86,23658,17820,41478 96,15547,12679,28226 |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Feb 4 21:23:49 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Feb 1 16:30:41 2017. Back when I was in the schedule office and doing IRT schedules, it was determined that more service was needed on Lex and there was capacity for it, however, scheduling was limited by car availability and we couldn’t schedule the needed service due to lack of equipment. Now with the SAS siphoning off some of the Lex ridership, the existing level of service can remain the same but overcrowding should be lessened. |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Feb 4 21:26:46 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by Joe V on Wed Feb 1 15:57:39 2017. I agree. If I were a UES passenger, I would rather have a complete SAS that goes all the way with bare bones stations than a half assed partial subway that looks like Buckingham Palace. |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Feb 4 21:33:26 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by randyo on Sat Feb 4 21:26:46 2017. RIGHT ON !!! |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 4 21:44:55 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by randyo on Sat Feb 4 21:23:49 2017. we couldn’t schedule the needed service due to lack of equipment.As an unindicted co-conspirator used to say, "let's be perfectly clear." That "lack of equipment" was lack of rolling stock and possibly personnel to operate them. It wasn't the lack of a hi-tech signal system. Correct? |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 4 22:01:34 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by randyo on Sat Feb 4 21:23:49 2017. Now with the SAS siphoning off some of the Lex ridership, the existing level of service can remain the same but overcrowding should be lessened.If one is expecting the Lex' reduced passenger load to result in improved on-time performance, don't count on it. I've been doing some analysis comparing the schedule with archived real time data. Preliminary analysis indicates it's gotten worse from a year ago. My analysis is still in its early stages, I don't know whether some anomalies reflect the real world or weaknesses in the real time data. Will publish, if I become for confident of the real time data. |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Feb 4 23:36:41 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 4 21:44:55 2017. Correct, it was just the rolling stock. |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Feb 5 06:38:51 2017, in response to Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by randyo on Sat Feb 4 23:36:41 2017. Thank you very much for that recollection and clarification. |
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Re: Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Sun Feb 5 07:18:20 2017, in response to Second Av Subway Ridership Growing Rapidly, posted by italianstallion on Wed Feb 1 11:43:55 2017. Now this is good news indeed. Build it and they'll come.It was on the TV news this week stating that ridership on the nearby Lexington Ave subway dropped since the opening of the SAS. Bill Newkirk |
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