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Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by gold_12th on Fri Dec 9 13:15:58 2016

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SERVICE CHANGES: NYC TRANSIT COMMITTEE NOTIFICATION: A DIVISION SUBWAY SCHEDULE CHANGES EFFECTIVE SPRING 2017

Service Issue
To ensure that subway schedules accurately match current rider demand, schedules are regularly reviewed, evaluated and revised in order to provide passengers with the most efficient and effective service possible. NYC Transit routinely changes service to reflect changes in demand in compliance with MTA Board-adopted subway loading guidelines.

Additionally, due to damage sustained during “Super Storm” Sandy, in order to maintain the long term safety and viability of the 2 and 3 lines’ Clark Street Tubes between Brooklyn and Manhattan, major reconstruction and rehabilitation work is needed. This vital work can be performed on weekends and would therefore not affect regular weekday daytime service. To accommodate this work, beginning in June 2017, and continuing for approximately 13 months, no 2 or 3 service would be able to operate via the Clark Street Tubes on weekends while work is being conducted. Temporary long term 2,3,4, and 5 schedule and route changes are proposed that would affect Saturday and Sunday service, as well as early Monday morning service before 5:00 a.m. Note that these schedule and route changes would be incorporated into our picked schedules starting in June 2017; however, work in the Clark Street Tubes will start prior to June 2017 and will require a few weekend service diversions before the start of the June pick.

Recommendation
Implement routine schedule adjustments for the 1 and 7 on weekdays. In order to ensure the long term safety and viability of the 2 and 3 lines, and to provide cost effective service that will best mitigate potential crowding and passenger travel time impacts while work is being conducted on the Clark Street Tube, implement temporary long term schedule and route changes to Saturday and Sunday 2, 3, 4, and 5 service, as well as early Monday morning service before 5:00 a.m.

Budget Impact:
Implementation of the proposed routine 1 and 7 schedule changes will cost approximately $0.6 million annually, which is consistent with the proposed 2017 Operating Budget. Implementation of the proposed temporary long term schedule and route changes to Saturday and Sunday 2, 3, 4, and 5 service will save approximately $1.3 million annually as compared to current service plan. This is consistent with the proposed 2017 Operating Budget.

Proposed Implementation Date:
Weekday 1 and 7 schedule changes, and Saturday and Sunday 2,3,4, and 5 schedule and route changes, including changes to early Monday morning service before 5:00 a.m., will be implemented in June 2017.

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Purpose:
To obtain Presidential approval, and to inform the NYC Transit and MTA Bus Committee, of schedule adjustments on the 1 and 7 routes in response to changes in subway ridership, and of temporary long-term schedule and route adjustments on the 2, 3, 4, and 5 that are being proposed to accommodate reconstruction of the 2 and 3 lines' Clark Street Tubes between Brooklyn and Manhattan, which is needed for the long term safety and viability of 2 and 3 lines.

Discussion:
Proposed Guideline Schedule Adjustments
Schedule adjustments on the 1 and 7 routes are proposed in response to changes in subway ridership. The schedule changes outlined below will be implemented with the Spring 2017 Pick. These changes represent service adjustments during weekday afternoon rush periods and weekday evenings to more closely align 1 and 7 service with customer demand and established guidelines for subway operation. Details of these proposed adjustments are shown in Attachment I.

The additional weekday 1 trips are proposed in response to weekday ridership growth in upper Manhattan, as well as to provide more frequent weekday service along the IRT Broadway-Seventh Avenue line between Lower
Manhattan and the Bronx. Combined express 2, 3 service currently carries ridership volume in excess of guideline capacity during the p.m. peak hour, and due to track capacity constraints, it is not feasible to schedule any additional northbound 2, 3 service. Additional 1 service during the afternoon rush period, as well as the evening hours, will help relieve crowding along the shared corridor.

The additional weekday 7 trips are proposed in response to weekday ridership growth along 42nd Street in Manhattan and along the Flushing line in Queens during the early shoulder of the p.m. rush period and during the evening.

The schedule changes proposed are as follows:
* Weekday 1 service will be increased a total of 3 round trips between approximately 5:30 p.m. and 9:30 p.m. One additional round trip will operate during the afternoon rush hour and two additional round trips will operate during the evening hours.

* Weekday 7 service will be increased a total of 6 round trips between approximately 4:30 p.m. and 11:30 p.m. One additional round trip will operate during the afternoon rush hour and five additional round trips will operate during the evening hours.

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Proposed Schedule Adjustments to Accommodate Clark St Tube Reconstruction

We are continuing to fix and fortify our system after the damage that was caused by “Super Storm” Sandy. There is extensive work that needs to be done in the Clark St Tubes to ensure the long term safety and viability of 2 and 3 lines. This vital work can be performed on weekends and would therefore not affect regular weekday daytime service. The weekend service plan that is being proposed to accommodate reconstruction of the Clark Street Tubes was developed with the same “get in, get it done, get out” philosophy as other recent major construction projects. The primary goals of this proposal are to minimize the impact on customers to the greatest extent feasible, minimize the duration of the project and to minimize customer confusion by providing the same service every weekend, to the degree that we can, during the timeframe of this project. This consistency provides predictability not only for customers but for the contractor as well. It also helps shorten the overall duration of the project.

To accommodate construction in the Clark Street Tubes beginning in June 2017, no 2 or 3 service will be able to operate between Manhattan and Brooklyn on weekends while work is being conducted. Temporary long-term schedule and route adjustments on the weekend 2,3,4, and 5 are needed to accommodate this vital reconstruction work. Note that these schedule and route changes would be incorporated into our picked schedules starting in June 2017; however, work in the Clark Street Tubes will start prior to June 2017 and will require a few weekend service diversions before the start of the June pick.

During the weekend construction work on the Clark Street Tubes, in order to maintain 2 and 3 service along 7th Avenue in Manhattan, 2 and 3 trains will need to terminate at alternate locations in Lower Manhattan. In order to provide alternate service to the greatest extent practicable while taking into account the locations of track switches that allow trains to terminate and change directions, 2 trains would be
rerouted via the 1 line south of Chambers St and would terminate at South Ferry. Because of capacity constraints at South Ferry, 3 trains will terminate at 14 St, which is the nearest feasible terminal location north of South Ferry (see Attachment 2).

Because of these 2 and 3 service reroutes, there will be no subway service available at the Park Place, Wall St, Clark St, and Hoyt St stations in Manhattan and Brooklyn on weekends.

To provide alternate service in Brooklyn on weekends, 4 service will be extended from Crown Heights-Utica Av to New Lots Avenue to replace the 3, and 5 service will be extended from Bowling Green to Flatbush Av-Brooklyn College to replace the 2. Both the 4 and 5 will operate with all local service south of Nevins St.

In addition, to facilitate travel between Brooklyn and the 7th Avenue line in Manhattan, a free out of system transfer will be provided between the 4 5 at the Bowling Green station and the 1 2 at the Whitehall St-South Ferry station complex in Lower Manhattan.

To improve operations and reduce the need for additional train crews, the northern terminals of the 2 and 5 will be swapped. 2 trains will operate via the Dyre Avenue line between Eastchester-Dyre Avenue
and E 180 St, and 5 trains will operate via the White Plains Road line between Wakefield-241 St and E 180 St. This is consistent with current operating practices when Clark Street Tunnel is closed for major repairs.

All of these changes together will affect approximately 205,000 riders on the average weekend, and average passenger travel time will increase by about 4.5 minutes. Approximately 70,000 cross-river riders will have to take an alternate service, such as the 4, 5 and R services, which have the capacity to carry these riders. Approximately 85,000 riders will be affected by a reduced frequency in service, and approximately 50,000 riders will be affected because the station they normally would have used will not have service on weekends while this plan is in operation.

In addition to operating on Saturdays and Sundays, this service plan would operate overnight from Sunday night until 5 a.m. on Monday mornings. As such, this service plan technically includes changes in weekday schedules and routes; from the perspective of the vast majority of riders, however, this is a “weekend only” service plan.

Schedule and route changes such as those proposed here have generally been made through issuance of General Orders and via schedule supplements on affected weekends rather than being incorporated into a
Pick. Due to the magnitude and duration of this project, however, it will be more beneficial from both a financial and staffing perspective to implement these changes via Pick. Allowing the worksite to be
accessed predictably and consistently will reduce delays and contractor costs. Further, by incorporating these changes via Pick, and because of the resulting crew scheduling efficiencies, we maintain the flexibility to provide additional service when it is needed to accommodate special events and other necessary weekend service changes for capital and maintenance work. Perhaps most importantly, given how different this service plan is from regular weekend service, it will help minimize passenger confusion and ensure that riders have a consistent weekend service.

Recommendation
Implement routine 1 and 7 schedule adjustments. In addition, in order to ensure the long term safety and viability of the 2 and 3 lines, and to provide cost effective service that will best mitigate potential
crowding and passenger travel time impacts while work is being conducted on the Clark Street Tube, implement temporary long term schedule and route changes to Saturday and Sunday 2,3,4, and 5 service.

Alternatives to the Proposal
Do nothing. NYCT would not make normal 1 and 7 service adjustments to better meet customer demand nor make temporary long-term schedule and route adjustments to Saturday and Sunday 2,3,4, and 5 service. Without the latter changes, vital reconstruction work of the Clark Street Tubes cannot occur. Do the Clark St Tube Work through issuance of General Orders and via schedule supplements on affected weekends. This alternative would be more costly and would require many more train crews. Riders would also have less consistent weekend service, and the project duration and period of weekend service disruptions would be longer.

Budget Impact
Implementation of the proposed routine 1 and 7 schedule changes will cost approximately $0.6 million annually, which is consistent with the proposed 2017 Operating Budget. Implementation of the proposed temporary long term schedule and route changes to Saturday and Sunday 2, 3, 4, and 5 service will save approximately $1.3 million annually as compared to current service plan. This is consistent with the proposed 2017 Operating Budget.

Proposed Implementation Date
Weekday 1 and 7 schedule changes and Saturday and Sunday 2, 3, 4, and 5 schedule and route changes will be implemented in June 2017.

Approved:
Veronique Hakim
President - NYCT

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(1419093)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Dec 9 15:18:26 2016, in response to Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by gold_12th on Fri Dec 9 13:15:58 2016.

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The text says that the 2 to South Ferry will come from Dyre Ave., but the map says from 241st St. Sloppy. But I guess they will finally have to trust the conductors on the 2 to open only the front doors at SF, unless the "new" SF terminal will have been reopened by then.

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(1419103)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by italianstallion on Fri Dec 9 15:55:43 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Dec 9 15:18:26 2016.

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I think they figure it will be open by then.

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(1419133)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 9 17:56:27 2016, in response to Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by gold_12th on Fri Dec 9 13:15:58 2016.

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Is it conceivable the weekend Flatbush Branch with #5 train service would get more frequent service than the 2 does now with its 12 minute intervals ?

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(1419134)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by randyo on Fri Dec 9 18:05:21 2016, in response to Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by gold_12th on Fri Dec 9 13:15:58 2016.

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Although it doesn’t seem to be made perfectly clear, it seems that the 5 will be running to Flatbush 24 hours on weekends and the Dyre shuttle will be replaced by the through 2 service from Dyre to So/Fy. Actually, it might make more sense to terminate the 2s on the exp tk in Chambers St station instead of sending them to So/Fy. That would eliminate the congestion problem at So/Fy regardless of which station is used. It would also be possible and highly desirable to run a single track shuttle between Chambers and Wall/William to provide service to stations not served by the 2 or 3 during this time.

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(1419135)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 9 18:11:49 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by randyo on Fri Dec 9 18:05:21 2016.

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With Fulton Transfer in place, I don't think they care when they leave entire trunk lines with no service - you can work around it. They could run the J to Prospect Park, but nobody used it when they did.

I liked walking from PATH to Park Place to get to Brooklyn. Now I'll have to walk the length of the Oculus, Dey Street corridor, and the Fulton Transfer to get on the 5, which is farther.

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(1419142)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Dec 9 18:44:25 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by italianstallion on Fri Dec 9 15:55:43 2016.

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Why do they keep messing around with the #@ line? Keep it an express bet: 96th-Chambers 24/7, and run the #3 nights bet: 148th-South Ferry.

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(1419144)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by AlM on Fri Dec 9 18:47:59 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 9 17:56:27 2016.

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Huh?

I see 8 minute service for much of the weekend on the 2 and only 12 minute service on the 5.

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(1419148)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 9 19:19:03 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by AlM on Fri Dec 9 18:47:59 2016.

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When did that change ?
Up until last summer, it was 12 minutes (so was the 3).

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(1419153)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by italianstallion on Fri Dec 9 19:50:36 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by randyo on Fri Dec 9 18:05:21 2016.

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The run the 2 to SFerry so you can transfer to the 4 at BG or to the R at Whitehall.

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(1419163)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by AlM on Fri Dec 9 21:16:14 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 9 18:11:49 2016.

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You're saying there will be a free transfer betyween the Courtlandt Street 1 station and the Fulton Street complex? I didn't know that.

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(1419164)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by AlM on Fri Dec 9 21:17:41 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by italianstallion on Fri Dec 9 19:50:36 2016.

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???

Extra fare to get from South Ferry to Bowling Green, isn't there?

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(1419173)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by BusRider on Fri Dec 9 22:39:22 2016, in response to Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by gold_12th on Fri Dec 9 13:15:58 2016.

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Can Brooklyn IRT handle the capacity with solely two services? Back in August when there were no 2 or 3 trains in Brooklyn I believe a similar scenario took place ; trains terminated at 14th (per announcements) but ended at Rector? When I took the 4 on a round-trip ridership seemed light for what I expected.

Those 70,000 customers traveling through the tube is transfering to the R viable being it was extended to Whitehall?

So from my understanding:

1 & 7 get service increases.
2 & 5 swap North end terminals.
2 & 3 cut back to 14th and South Ferry respectively.

Is capacity really limited due to the amount of signal blocks and speed limits or is it lack of train sets and increased dwell times thus increasing running time?

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(1419175)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Dec 9 23:00:58 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by AlM on Fri Dec 9 21:17:41 2016.

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Out of system transfer.

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(1419182)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Dec 9 23:56:08 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by BusRider on Fri Dec 9 22:39:22 2016.

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Hopefully both the 4/5 will be on at least 10 minute daytime headways, a train every 5 minutes. Too early to tell.

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(1419183)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by R36 #9346 on Fri Dec 9 23:56:26 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by AlM on Fri Dec 9 21:16:14 2016.

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The future Cortlandt Street 1 station will have exits that lead into the Oculus. The ROW is actually situated above the eastern edge of the PATH plaza.

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(1419194)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 10 07:21:58 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by AlM on Fri Dec 9 21:16:14 2016.

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I didn't say a thing about Courtlandt Street 1 station.
People on the #1 need to completely reroute their trips if headed to Brooklyn.

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(1419195)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 10 07:24:07 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by BusRider on Fri Dec 9 22:39:22 2016.

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They made do with just the 2 & 3 last summer, with Lex service.
Northbound service was slow and sloppy with trip times between Rogers Junction and 34th/Penn Station 10 minutes longer than the revised local service timetable.

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(1419199)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 10 07:29:43 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 10 07:24:07 2016.

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with NO Lex service.

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(1419201)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by AlM on Sat Dec 10 07:51:09 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Dec 9 23:00:58 2016.

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Now already, or in the future?

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(1419202)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by AlM on Sat Dec 10 07:51:29 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 10 07:21:58 2016.

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OK, now I see what you said.

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(1419213)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by zac on Sat Dec 10 09:09:17 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by AlM on Sat Dec 10 07:51:09 2016.

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It is in the proposal.

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(1419214)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by Dyre Dan on Sat Dec 10 09:09:22 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Dec 9 18:44:25 2016.

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If you're talking about this service diversion, they can't run any express 96th to Chambers if the other one is terminating at 14th St. If you mean in general, there is little point in running express service at night. The 3 runs to Times Square, as I see it, because that is the first place it can be turned and still give across-the-platform transfers to/from thru trains on both the uptown and downtown sides.

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(1419215)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Dec 10 09:20:21 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Dec 9 15:18:26 2016.

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Which makes sense, though would they also consider on weekends having BOTH the loop line and the regular station open? Advisories can be put up to remind people to use the front five cars if going to SF and one line could be designated to run via the loop station during this.

That way, the (1) (2) and (3) can all terminate at SF with one of the lines running via the loop.

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(1419216)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Dec 10 09:31:10 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by randyo on Fri Dec 9 18:05:21 2016.

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Which is exactly what I would do. You need single-track shuttles between Wall and Chambers for people who need to get there to make transfers at Park Place and Fulton Streets, especially Fulton to the (4) (5).

I'd also be looking at single-track shuttles that would run between Clark and Nevins Street (or at least a single shuttle between Clark and Borough Hall) to accommodate those passengers.

I would also use BOTH the old loop and the new SF stations so the (1) (2) and (3) ALL can terminate there. One of the lines can be designated as the loop station line and use the loop at all times so you don't have three lines trying to terminate at the new SF. That need could be eliminated, however, if you can built switches north of Wall Street if possible that would allow the (2) (3) to use Wall Street (or even Fulton Street) as a terminal on weekends during this period.

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(1419241)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by displaced angeleno on Sat Dec 10 11:59:08 2016, in response to Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by gold_12th on Fri Dec 9 13:15:58 2016.

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It's times like this that a switch between Wall and Fulton Streets would be very useful to turn either the 2 or 3, and preserve Fulton Street transfers.

I checked the track maps, and there doesn't appear to be a switch in the vicinity, but I could have sworn that there is a double switch just south of Wall Street.

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(1419244)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by Kriston Lewis on Sat Dec 10 12:06:31 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 9 19:19:03 2016.

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I think during the fall pick. The service proposal was posted here.

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(1419249)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by Kriston Lewis on Sat Dec 10 12:16:32 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by displaced angeleno on Sat Dec 10 11:59:08 2016.

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I believe so too. I think that they have would've considered that, but concluded that it might be in the work zone.

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(1419253)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by chud1 on Sat Dec 10 12:30:11 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by displaced angeleno on Sat Dec 10 11:59:08 2016.

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i am looking at peter dougherty's track book, and there is a switch south of wall street on da #2 and # 3 line.
chud1.
:).....

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(1419286)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 10 17:20:00 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by Kriston Lewis on Sat Dec 10 12:06:31 2016.

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Right. I was thinking that was to take place in early 2017 sometime.

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(1419287)

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 10 17:22:33 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by italianstallion on Fri Dec 9 19:50:36 2016.

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Depends where people on the West Side IRT people are coming from. I see use of the BMT: from Times Square to Atlantic/Pacific, or the L to get across 14th Street (while you can still ride it) to the Lex.

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by BusRider on Sat Dec 10 18:00:44 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Dec 9 23:56:08 2016.

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Yeah I was thinking additional 4/5 service to make up I just didn't see anything in the attached text. Especially the 5 could use more of the #2 Train sets.

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by BusRider on Sat Dec 10 18:06:54 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Dec 9 23:56:08 2016.

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Yeah I was thinking additional 4/5 service to make up I just didn't see anything in the attached text. Especially the 5 could use more of the #2 Train sets.

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by BusRider on Sat Dec 10 18:07:51 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 10 07:24:07 2016.

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Interesting.

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by TerrApin Station on Sat Dec 10 20:17:34 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by AlM on Fri Dec 9 18:47:59 2016.

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Joe V was Pwn3d!!!!!

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by Michael549 on Sat Dec 10 21:39:45 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Dec 10 09:31:10 2016.

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"I'd also be looking at single-track shuttles that would run between Clark and Nevins Street (or at least a single shuttle between Clark and Borough Hall) to accommodate those passengers."

There are a couple of basic issues:

1) From a staff management point of view - the #2 and 5 train operators and conductors basically get assigned to their regular work places and terminals - and simply just take a different route to get to and from those terminals. Under the hood of train route names the #2 train crews travel down Lexington Avenue while the #5 crew folk travel down the west-side.

2) The closures of the Park Place, Fulton Street, Wall Street, Clark Street and Hoyt Street stations are really not huge deal because riders can still get and from those locations by transferring to and from other train lines. The #2 & #3 Wall Street station as well as the Fulton Street platforms are right next to the J-train Broad Street station and Fulton Street (respectively) and its access to the #4 and #5 lines.

The Park Place station is connected to the more heavily used A & C trains at Chambers Street. Riders with un-limited Metro-Cards can make their own out of system transfer between the two Chambers Street stations. On the other side of City Hall Park are the #4 and #5 trains at the Brooklyn Bridge station - so riders to/from Brooklyn on the weekends can use the Brooklyn Bridge or the R-train station at City Hall.

(If the Cortlandt Street station were open by the time period of this project - riders could create their own "out-of-system" transfer between the #1 and #2 and A & C trains at the all weather protected World Trade Center complex.)

The #2 & #3 Clark Street station is within walking distance of the A & C train High Street station - meaning that folks traveling to/from the west-side of Manhattan have an alternative route, as well as folks from downtown Manhattan. In addition such riders can also transfer between #1, #2 and #3 trains and A & C trains at other locations in Manhattan.

The #2 and #3 Hoyt Street station is surrounded by nearby subway stations at the Fulton Street Mall - the A/C/F/R-train at Jay Street/Metro-Tech, the #4 & #5 trains at Nevins Street, the Q & R (and midnight hours D & N) at DeKalb Avenue, as well as a walk from the Borough Hall station of the #4 and #5 trains.

The basic problem is that nearby transfers, and the wide-spread usage if unlimited Metro-Cards reduces greatly the need for your suggestion of single track shuttles. Your single track shuttles would introduce a crew management problem that the MTA wants to completely avoid.

Mike

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Dec 10 23:18:52 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by Michael549 on Sat Dec 10 21:39:45 2016.

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That is all true. however. not everyone has unlimited ride cards.

Also, Fulton and Park Place are big transfer points. That's why if you can put switches in NORTH of Wall Street on the (2) (3) and use that (or even Fulton) as a terminal on weekends, it would help a lot.

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by Michael549 on Sun Dec 11 01:11:58 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Dec 10 23:18:52 2016.

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From the MTA point of view:

a) why bother going to the major expanse of installing additional switches and the signalling equipment for it when the Wall Street station is probably going to be used as the equipment staging place to repair the Clark Street train tunnels?

b) Yes, it is true that not every transit rider has unlimited ride cards. The MTA's response would be that a free "out of system" transfer will be provided from South Ferry to Bowling Green ti aid Brooklyn/West-side riders, that #1 and #2 train riders can use the R-train to travel to/from Brooklyn with a transfer to/from the #4 and #5 trains at Borough Hall and at Atlantic Avenue, as well as in-system transfers to other lines.

The Fulton Transit Center has operated with A & C trains diverted away for many weekends and months over the past two decades! Where J-trains were diverted away on weekends for decades as its regular pattern! In addition for several months #4 and #5 have not served that station on weekends. All of this on top of the usual G.O.'s and other service issues.

PLEASE! There were several weekends this past year where both #4 and #5 trains, and the A & C trains were diverted AWAY from the Fulton Transit Center leaving only the #2 & #3 and the J-train serving the station!

The entrances of the R-train City Hall station is LITERALLY DIRECTLY ACROSS THE STREET FROM the #2 and #3 train Park Place station entrance at City Hall Park!! However much Park Place is a transfer station - alternative means can be found.

From the MTA point of view "why spend money on stuff that you don't have to" - especially when the tunnel repair work is pretty expensive enough.

Mike

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by Wallyhorse on Sun Dec 11 08:06:34 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by Michael549 on Sun Dec 11 01:11:58 2016.

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In this case, the switches also provide a long-term benefit in that if the line in Brooklyn gets "Jacked Up," the (2) and (3) can use Wall or Fulton to terminate.

This mainly allows those without Metrocards to transfer from the 2/3 to the 4/5 at Fulton to continue to Brooklyn. The OOS transfer may not be sufficient for those who have to after the subway transfer to a bus and don't have unlimited cards.

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by Joe V on Sun Dec 11 10:15:37 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by TerrApin Station on Sat Dec 10 20:17:34 2016.

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No, he read a printed timetable from last summer.

God, you are so damned STUPID.

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by Michael549 on Sun Dec 11 11:06:47 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by Wallyhorse on Sun Dec 11 08:06:34 2016.

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"This mainly allows those without Metrocards to transfer from the 2/3 to the 4/5 at Fulton to continue to Brooklyn. The OOS transfer may not be sufficient for those who have to after the subway transfer to a bus and don't have unlimited cards."

I give you points for sticking to your guns, but come on!

Riders from Brooklyn bound for the Manhattan #2 and #3 stations can transfer to the R-train at Atlantic Avenue and at the Borough Hall station, and then transfer again to the #1 and #2 trains at South Ferry - all indoors and all weather. Or they could simply take the R-train to some west-side destinations, or transfer to A & C trains!

Westside riders bound for Brooklyn #4 and #5 stations can take the #1 and #2 to South Ferry for the FREE OUT OF SYSTEM TRANSFER to the Bowling Green station, or transfer at several points in Manhattan for Q, R and N trains that meet #4 and #5 trains at Atlantic Avenue.

PLUS! PLUS!

There ARE already tracks switches at the #2 and #3 Wall Street station! There simply are not a corresponding set at the Clark Street station side of the tunnel which reduces the ability to use those tunnel tracks for bi-directional travel. (A very long time ago the TA did an interesting G.O. bi-directional operation with Atlantic Avenue.)

The MTA is simply doing the least costly operation here, especially because there are alternatives.

Mike

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by Michael549 on Sun Dec 11 11:07:55 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by Michael549 on Sun Dec 11 11:06:47 2016.

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"I give you points for sticking to your guns, but come on!"

It's like wrestling a bear!

Ha! Ha!

Mike

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by AlM on Sun Dec 11 11:19:12 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by Michael549 on Sun Dec 11 11:06:47 2016.

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There ARE already tracks switches at the #2 and #3 Wall Street station!

Then I wonder, why not terminate the 2 and 3 at Wall Street and the 1 at South Ferry? That would seem so much easier and passenger-friendly, and hardly more costly than terminating the 3 at 14th and the 2 at South Ferry.

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by B1bus on Sun Dec 11 11:23:49 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by zac on Sat Dec 10 09:09:17 2016.

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But will it eat up the bus transfer?

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by Michael549 on Sun Dec 11 15:46:00 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by AlM on Sun Dec 11 11:19:12 2016.

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"Then I wonder, why not terminate the 2 and 3 at Wall Street and the 1 at South Ferry? That would seem so much easier and passenger-friendly, and hardly more costly than terminating the 3 at 14th and the 2 at South Ferry."

In order to use those switches the uptown bound #2 or #3 train has to terminate and relay inside of the subway tunnel section, while the train operator changes ends on the train.

A few months back on this forum there were arguments about the work that needed to be done on the 14th Street L-train Tunnel. After much arguing and debate it was decided that it is better for the MTA and the contractors to have full usage of the subway tunnel for the Sandy Hurricane-related repair work.

That is what is probably going on here. The MTA has closed for that segment of tracks for the repair work - free and clear. The workers in the tubes do not have to "worry" about a possible "run-away" #2 or #3 train in the underwater tube while they are repairing the tunnels. There also may be "closing off of the power issues" related to this section of tunnel.

Just a thought.
Mike

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by displaced angeleno on Sun Dec 11 18:02:18 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by chud1 on Sat Dec 10 12:30:11 2016.

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Thanks for checking up on that. I was pretty sure about it.

I was using the track map available on nycsubway.org

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by displaced angeleno on Sun Dec 11 18:09:00 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by Wallyhorse on Sun Dec 11 08:06:34 2016.

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When NYCT creates out-of-system transfers for GOs, do they add a second free transfer a la the SI crosstown buses and the B61/B62 (and others) or just allow the existing single transfer to be repurposed for subway-subway?

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by Wallyhorse on Sun Dec 11 19:12:34 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by chud1 on Sat Dec 10 12:30:11 2016.

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What would be needed here is a new switch either directly SOUTH of Fulton or directly NORTH of Wall Street that would allow either station to be used as a weekend terminal for the 2/3 during these closures, Not everyone has an unlimited ride card.

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Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017

Posted by chud1 on Mon Dec 12 05:19:46 2016, in response to Re: Long-term Weekend service changes on (2)(3)(4)(5) lines; Service increase on (1) (7) - 6/2017, posted by Wallyhorse on Sun Dec 11 19:12:34 2016.

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IAWTP.
chud1.
:).....

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