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| Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video (1364101) | |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 31 08:55:54 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by WillD on Mon Aug 31 03:45:27 2015. Good post. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 31 08:58:18 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by WillD on Mon Aug 31 03:54:40 2015. +45 |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 31 08:58:38 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by WillD on Mon Aug 31 03:56:54 2015. Agreed. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 31 08:59:26 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by Union Tpke on Mon Aug 31 06:43:40 2015. Who's being rude? |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 31 17:44:30 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by WillD on Mon Aug 31 03:56:54 2015. I can't believe you are still carrying on about this. This proposal is so full of defects, to call it half-baked is a compliment.The trouble with you is you keep regurgitating manufacturing data like the Lord's Prayer, cannot focus on anything else, then hurl insults when issues get brought up. You, WillD, have a lot of growing up to do. Try these antics at work, and see how long you last. When Terrapin is your only buddy on this one, you have problems. - you disregarded customer trip time, as it relates to indirect ferry connections, and a declining acceleration rate benefit along the line which on average increases by 2 minutes, which is easy to prove, and can only see end-point train trip time. - you make running time claims for all passengers that you cannot backup with 9th grade algebra like a used car salesman offloading a crappy sportscar. - 3.8 minutes verses 5 is not a rounding error, it is a lie that you used to sell this thing. I learned rounding in 6th grade. - you disregarded the difficulty of shrugging off the FRA - you are out to throw all SIR employees out of collective bargaining units and off railroad retirement that would make Scott Walker proud. - you disregarded the degrades in performance by continually stretching the LRV units, raising the floor, and widening it to 10' - you disregarded the difficulty of getting these LRV snakes to Coney Island for major work. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 31 17:46:07 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by R30A on Sun Aug 30 18:36:25 2015. Yes it is. They only waived the 800,000 lbs. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 31 17:48:39 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by WillD on Mon Aug 31 03:45:27 2015. Talk about anecdotal evidence. Since you are dealing with a fantasy LRV car to be custom built for this line, you have no idea what it's power draw or acceleration rate will be. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 31 17:57:10 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by WillD on Mon Aug 31 03:54:40 2015. " Lets leave subjects that are apparently far beyond your ability, like 9th Grade algebra, alone and instead focus on 3rd grade rounding. It's 5 minutes."3.8 to 5 is not rounding - it's lying. D = R * T 14 = 22* 0.64 0.64 of an hour is 38. 2 minutes. Current running time is 42 minutes, which is exactly 20 MPH. 3.8 rounds to 4, not 5. Now go back to 3rd grade. "As usual I come up with a superior solution and you rant and rave about how it cannot be done and how it'll be the worst thing ever. But the numbers definitely favor converting the SIRT to LRT." As usual, you are an full of shit like a foamer. You have no numbers, except what you concocted for an imaginary LRV car. There is nothing else to judge. "Those sheets are based on specification, not some as-built test data. The MTA specified a 2.5mph/s acceleration. There is no downgrading involved. Your whole argument is completely and utterly fallacious." Top speeds were downgraded to way below 55 to 38. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 31 17:59:12 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by WillD on Mon Aug 31 04:02:50 2015. R160's do not have every axle powered.Ad add the lengthening, which you "forgot", which is a 5% degradation, the raising to platform height, and the widening to 10', and you have an imaginary car. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 31 18:02:05 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by WillD on Mon Aug 31 03:42:42 2015. R160's run at 650 volts. Raise that to 750 volts, then come back.Take you half-baked proposal to the MTA. See what they tell you. If you believed in it so much, you would do that and not waste time here. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Aug 31 19:21:27 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 31 17:57:10 2015. So many factors influence running times beyond acceleration and running speed capabilities. Distance between stops, dwell time (loading and unloading are influenced by car design, door placement/#of doors/aisle and seating layout)track and signal, and the manner in which an agency wishes to run equipment have a large impact on results. Even if a car was capable of a jackrabbit start, would the MTA encourage or the passengers tolerate it for the sake of saving at most a couple of minutes over a complete route? Perhaps someone with good technical writing skills would post a good explanation of the differences in speed control and performance curves between AC and DC drive systems powered by a fixed voltage DC third rail system? I understand it, but I don't think I could do a good job of explaining it. Another thing for everyone to consider, what is now seen as a feeder for the ferry commuters may in the future have a somewhat different profile when the ferris wheel amusement area and the shopping mall are open mid day and weekend ridership might rise considerably when tthere is a reason to go into that area other than getting on a ferry. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 31 19:32:00 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by pragmatist on Mon Aug 31 19:21:27 2015. Unfortunately, WIllD can only regurgitate equipment spec sheets, and anyone who brings up other factors, or discredits his data from a customer standpoint, or even the fantasy LRV car he keeps bringing up is a "foamer". Over the weekend, he says it would not be an NJT or NFTA car, then resorts to regurgitating NJT LRV car specs. He can only maintain an argument by contradictions and lying.The psychological process is called "Projection" - it is the name-caller who has that characteristic, and is himself socially dysfunctional, cannot engage in a normal discussion, as he has proven over the last 24 hours, not even smart enough to be embarrassed to be backed up by the much-disliked Terrapin (Brian something). |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by TerrapIN StatiON on Mon Aug 31 21:10:47 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 31 19:32:00 2015. Which high-quality regular posters here dislike me? And even if I am disliked, what does that have to do with whether I am right or wrong? In fact, of the few people who dislike me, most are people who I have shown to repeatedly be wrong. So you inadvertently just showed why WillD could very well be CORRECT. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by ElectricTraction on Mon Aug 31 22:00:06 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by WillD on Mon Aug 31 03:45:27 2015. That would end up costing more than just upgrading the power, which makes a LOT more sense. Why do you keep trying to re-invent the wheel? |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by R30A on Mon Aug 31 22:19:56 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 31 17:46:07 2015. Not since 1988. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by WillD on Mon Aug 31 23:52:55 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 31 17:59:12 2015. R160's do not have every axle powered.That is incorrect. Ad add the lengthening, which you "forgot", which is a 5% degradation, the raising to platform height, and the widening to 10', and you have an imaginary car. No, I repeatedly referred to the Rotterdam Metrotype S cars in the 5300 and 5400 series. They do 65mph, seat 217 to 225 passengers, are designed to work with third rail, and as they're based on the Bombardier Flexity tram platform, they accelerate at 3mph/s. A 3 car train of these cars would nearly equal a four car R44 train in terms of capacity. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Dj Hammers on Tue Sep 1 00:19:58 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 31 17:59:12 2015. All axles on the R160s are powered. It is the R142/A B cars that have one unpowered truck. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by WillD on Tue Sep 1 00:21:03 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 31 18:02:05 2015. Do you know the R160s can operate on 750vdc without developing faults in the propulsion or low voltage systems? Do you know that a higher line voltage would result in superior performance? If only there was some sort of sheet filled with data on the cars which might allow you to verify your concept. But we know those specifications are nothing but lies. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by WillD on Tue Sep 1 01:49:05 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by ElectricTraction on Mon Aug 31 22:00:06 2015. How would it cost more money? The R44s will be replaced in the next 5 years. That's an unavoidable cost. If you replace the R44s with an LRV then you can improve performance without making changes to the power infrastructure. If you replace the R44s with whatever new rolling stock NYCT eventually orders and you want them to achieve the same performance then you'll be replacing both the rolling stock and the power infrastructure. That's two very expensive things to replace as compared to just one with an LRV approach. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Jace on Tue Sep 1 10:01:07 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 30 07:17:42 2015. "Only a techno-nerd like you believes in manufacturer data sheets. As you well know, all MTA operators seriously downgrade all their rolling stock in testing, both on LIRR/MN and NYCT, and they mean nothing."The R160 specification calls for a full acceleration rate of 2.5 mph/sec. The first cars were tested to that. All the others were built to that. No downgrades have been made to that rate since the cars have been in service. There is a change in process now that required retesting including verification that the acceleration rate is still 2.5 mph/sec. Supply voltage ranges from 450 to 780 VDC. Gear ratios can be changed but this can impact truck and gearbox design, both of which can add a lot of cost for relatively little gain. The bigger problem is that the capacity of a four car R44 train is equal to a five car R160 train. Four more motors, two more HVAC units and all the other auxiliaries; that's a lot more of a draw on an already weak power supply. This almost mandates that replacement cars be 75', or lighter weight, or with lower draw on the auxiliaries... LRVs have been looked at for SIR (including DMUs believe it or not). Nothing much has been done due to a lack of funding and the perpetual hope for the cheapest option: a mainline order that SIR can tack on to. If SIR does eventually go to a standalone order (i.e. if the R211s are 60' cars) then equipment more suited to SIR's operating environment can be developed - you'll have to pay for a new design anyway. We'll see what they look like. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by pragmatist on Tue Sep 1 10:16:08 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by Jace on Tue Sep 1 10:01:07 2015. Even if they tag on to a mainline order, don't they need to do some customization to accommodate the SIR signaling system? I'm fairly sure it doesn't use trip-arms for stop enforcement. Anything new (other than DMU), whether LRV or railcar based is likely to be AC driven with Inverter/IGBT/VFD and not DC traction. If you wanted/needed to upgrade power, you'd want to do a lifecycle cost analysis of a/c catenary. That of course would alter the equation as to rolling stock choices, but even if nothing ultimately changed, it would sure liven up the discussion forums for a while! |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue Sep 1 11:02:46 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 31 08:59:26 2015. Children! Children! |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Sep 1 13:10:00 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by Dj Hammers on Tue Sep 1 00:19:58 2015. I thought that the R-143s and R-160s also had one unpowered truck on one of the cars in the unit. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Sep 1 13:29:29 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by Jace on Tue Sep 1 10:01:07 2015. I think that the MTA is pretty much done with 75 ft cars for the foreseeable future. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Jace on Tue Sep 1 15:16:54 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by randyo on Tue Sep 1 13:10:00 2015. They're all powered on the R143s and R160s. The R179 will have one truck unpowered on one A car of each unit. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Dj Hammers on Tue Sep 1 15:33:50 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by Jace on Tue Sep 1 15:16:54 2015. What is the reasoning for this? There was enough undercar space for components to support motor trucks on every car on the R160s. Will there be more/larger undercar components on the R179s? |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Jace on Tue Sep 1 16:13:29 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by Dj Hammers on Tue Sep 1 15:33:50 2015. CBTC needs a truck. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Dj Hammers on Tue Sep 1 16:32:16 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by Jace on Tue Sep 1 16:13:29 2015. Ah okay.How is it that the R143s and some ENY R160s have CBTC and still have all trucks powered though? |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Sep 1 18:03:02 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by WillD on Tue Sep 1 00:21:03 2015. Do you know that maybe 2.5MPHPS can improved upon ?Do you know that LRV performance can be degraded from 3.0MPHPS depending on how the car is designed, and nothing has been for SIR ? The answer is no to both. You are hanging you hat on a lot of false assumptions, which make them all LIES. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Sep 1 18:08:59 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by WillD on Mon Aug 31 23:52:55 2015. Yes I was wrong about the axles. I mixed that with brake shoes for the odometer.Regardless of Rotterdam, the 5% degradation to the NJT LRV will happen, told directly by an official of the firm who maintains them and involved in the contract. Do you know that a Rotterdam would be legal here ? |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Sep 1 18:13:52 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by TerrapIN StatiON on Mon Aug 31 21:10:47 2015. He could be right, and then again he might not since we have too many unknowns since there is nothing designed for this country that could run on SIR as it is.I try to avoid personal attacks, but when I regard what I think a 4 or even 5 minute reduction is not worthwhile for LRV conversion, I do not like to be called a foamer and an idiot for disagreeing. So the kid gloves are off. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Sep 1 18:15:08 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by Dj Hammers on Tue Sep 1 00:19:58 2015. Yep, that was it, I had the R142 and R160 confused. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Sep 1 18:21:54 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by Jace on Tue Sep 1 10:01:07 2015. And therein lies a severe political problem for Staten Island: conversion to LRV means no hope ever for extension to Brooklyn (a fantasy). Politically, the fantasy has to be remain. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Sep 1 18:22:54 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by randyo on Tue Sep 1 13:29:29 2015. The "court of public opinion" such as it is here mostly thought the R211 would be 75' until spec came out, and it will not be. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Sep 1 18:23:38 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by SLRT on Tue Sep 1 11:02:46 2015. Yeh, well. I tried to avoid it becoming that. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Sep 1 18:28:38 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by WillD on Tue Sep 1 01:49:05 2015. The LRV approach here means a small, custom fleet. There are no more high floor LRV opportunities under MTA - not the Franklin Shuttle, not the West Hempstead Branch, not 42nd Street.I know you argued against such economies of scale concerning SIR some years ago. Now it does not seem to much matter. HBLRT is not coming to St George and NJT and MTA are not going to cooperate on a common car and common maintenance. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by ElectricTraction on Tue Sep 1 21:34:27 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by Joe V on Tue Sep 1 18:22:54 2015. They should do continuous interior articulated cars from here on out. It only makes sense, since it's the only way left after CBTC to add capacity without having to add more tracks. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by VictorM on Tue Sep 1 21:44:07 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by Dj Hammers on Tue Sep 1 16:32:16 2015. They use a different CBTC technology from what will be used in the future. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by ElectricTraction on Tue Sep 1 21:47:24 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by pragmatist on Tue Sep 1 10:16:08 2015. A/C catenary? What are you people smoking? LIRR runs 12 car M-7 sets on third rail, I'm pretty sure SIR can upgrade their power infrastructure to handle 4 cars accelerating at their full capability. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by pragmatist on Tue Sep 1 22:10:34 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by ElectricTraction on Tue Sep 1 21:47:24 2015. Of course they can upgrade the power. It is also the most likely scenario. What I said was, the long term cost analysis should be done, since other posters were bringing in the ideas about different car types, there has also been talk over the years about reopening North Shore. I, and most others believe that the most likely scenario is cars tagged onto a mainline order will eventually show up, and (as you suggest) power upgrades will occur. That does not mean that the analysis shouldn't be done. Having all the data available is an important part of the process in making a solid long term decision in the best means to proceed. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Sep 1 23:01:06 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by Joe V on Tue Sep 1 18:13:52 2015. You didn't answer my questions or address what I wrote. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Sep 1 23:02:04 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by Joe V on Tue Sep 1 18:22:54 2015. No they didn't. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Jace on Wed Sep 2 09:13:11 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by VictorM on Tue Sep 1 21:44:07 2015. Exactly though the system is being installed on the R188s now. On the R143s and R160s it's called OSMES - an optical system used to determine the exact location of the train. The problem is that it's mounted in a terrible spot for an optical system: on the truck behind the wheel treads. Let's just say reliability and maintenance have been issues. The R179s and the R188s use an unpowered (and unbraked) truck to determine location instead. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Dj Hammers on Wed Sep 2 13:06:43 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by Jace on Wed Sep 2 09:13:11 2015. Makes sense. Thanks for the explanation!I'm interested in the technical specs of the R179 design. Is there anywhere where I can find it? Thanks! |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Sep 2 16:09:19 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Sep 1 23:01:06 2015. Nobody does that. You aren't worth the trouble. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Sep 2 16:10:52 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by ElectricTraction on Tue Sep 1 21:34:27 2015. I do like the idea of the TTC subway Rocket cars.Not sure if the next Montreal subway cars will be that way too. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Sep 2 16:22:04 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by pragmatist on Tue Sep 1 22:10:34 2015. Look at the ENTIRE customer trip to Manhattan or Downtown Brooklyn, or to Manhattan via Brooklyn and see what matters to Staten Islanders:- off peak, people and politicians want 20 minute Ferry and train service as they has through the 1970's - they want the TA's inept and hostile dispatching of the R train to stop. - they want any problems with the Metrocard Vending Machine to get fixed when required for SBS, whether it be on Hylan Blvd or the bus to Brooklyn. - they already have rush hour zone express trains to speed their trains up, could have more is ridership justifies. Micro-focusing on the minutia of a few minutes saved between Tottenville and St George is not what the doctor ordered and doesn't solve any of their issues. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Sep 2 16:32:30 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by ElectricTraction on Tue Sep 1 21:47:24 2015. 12 car M-3's in 1986 were blowing substations, so they had to mix them with M-1's. In 2015, the M-1's are long gone. Obviously the problem can be solved. |
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Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video |
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Posted by TerrapIN StatiON on Wed Sep 2 23:18:39 2015, in response to Re: SI Railway - no new cars till 2020 - NY1 video, posted by Joe V on Wed Sep 2 16:09:19 2015. Plenty of people do. You just know you're wrong so you can't answer the question. |
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