Re: Essex- Before the IND (1243575) | |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sat Aug 24 23:42:02 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Handbrake on Sat Aug 24 23:25:56 2013. not really,I found out about the ramps in 1995 when they were redoing Brooklyn bridge station & the uptown wall was taken down.I was in the underpass & was amazed to see the homeless had made their own "condo" complete with beds,a t.v.& refridgerator. the t.a. had no idea they were living there & had forgotten about the underpass completely.it was an amazing exploration for me.I found old sealed up staircases to the street with signs saying to 3rd ave EL & park row bmt station.the best were the ramps leading to the bridge & chambers st. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sat Aug 24 23:44:50 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by renee gil on Sat Aug 24 23:26:02 2013. I do not remember seeing rails the several times I was up there. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Aug 25 01:41:32 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by 3-9 on Sat Aug 24 18:06:50 2013. Prior to the construction of the current Essex St interlocking, there were switches west of the station to bring the short line trains into Canal St. After the new tower was installed, switches were rearranged to allow fro the Chrystie connection and short lines had to cross over to the middle east of Essex. All trains terminating at Canal after that served only the island platform going towards Canal. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Sun Aug 25 03:11:47 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by renee gil on Sat Aug 24 10:38:31 2013. i meant the broad st-bound platform. sorry. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 25 06:48:41 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Aug 24 21:42:58 2013. Then the IND made Canal Street an express stop. There was really no commercial need to do it. They simply wanted to siphon traffic off the BMT complex near there. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 25 06:51:52 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Aug 24 21:42:58 2013. What is unusual is the lack of symmetry in LL 42nd. Why is it they need it southbound, not northbound ? For that matter, why did they need it at all ?Future 34th Street Crosstown ? |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 25 06:52:51 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by randyo on Sun Aug 25 01:41:32 2013. What did the 14 local service do in the '60's ? |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Aug 25 09:21:03 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 25 06:51:52 2013. the IND subway under 34th st connected its proposed/planned 10th avenue subway to the east side 2nd avenue subway trunk line,sorta like the H system the IRT had going on.Neither route was built[34th st,10th ave], reduced to PROPOSAL STATUS.then forgotten. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by NorthShore on Sun Aug 25 09:25:53 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Handbrake on Sat Aug 24 21:32:41 2013. Sounds like one of the most informed , knowledgeable, educated and accurate posts I've ever read on SubChat.Thanks for your post. I look forward to more. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 25 10:21:19 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Edwards! on Sun Aug 25 09:21:03 2013. Well my point was perhaps that single track connection at 42nd LL would have connected to it midstream between 10th Av and 2nd Ave.I can't see any other rational need for it |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 25 10:25:39 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Aug 24 23:42:02 2013. With all those rats ? |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sun Aug 25 10:33:44 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 25 10:25:39 2013. no rats,`ceptin for me at all. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sun Aug 25 11:10:13 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Aug 24 15:55:35 2013. From another message:"4th Ave (Man.)-Grand Central, Grand St Crosstown, 8th St Crosstown, and 14 St Crosstown. All were gone by 1932. Another earlier line, the Brooklyn and North River (Canal St Crosstown) ended service on 10/04/1919. None of these lines would have needed that mystery space." Just to be clear, these above noted lines were trolley lines, right? Mike |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Aug 25 14:07:18 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Handbrake on Sat Aug 24 21:48:56 2013. On the south side of the Bridge Plaza is an emergency exits that was once a staircase the led to a track level mezzanine and fare control adjacent to Essex Tower. The existing stairway leading to the J2 track underpass and up to the middle platform, now closed to the public, was one way into the station.That mezzanine was used in 1989 when they were renovating the wall platform, and that fare control area was temporarily closed. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Aug 25 14:08:29 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Handbrake on Sat Aug 24 21:48:56 2013. Behind that low level mezzanine located behind the tower, where a communications room is located, there are two unused trackways that face railroad south . These trackways appeared aligned with the Trolley terminal closest to J2 track. The Christie Street cut off appears to have disturbed those trackways, so it's difficult to determine if there was a merge with the main line to the south.Yes. I remember seeing them from the front window when coming into the station years back. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Aug 25 15:04:38 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 25 06:48:41 2013. Although there may have been no commercial need to make Canal IND an express stop, since the bellmouths for the proposed Worth St subway were S/O Canal St, it made sense for the last stop before such a diversion to be an express stop for passenger convenience even though that logic was not followed in Queens N/O 63 Dr. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Aug 25 15:09:39 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 25 06:52:51 2013. Before the Chrystie St cut was made, Bway Bkln Lcls crossed over to the middle west (RR north at the time) of Essex. After the cut was built circa 1965, the switch to the middle was removed west of the station and Bway Bkln lcls had to be carefully spotted for the new Essex tower so that they could be crossed to the middle east (RR south) of the station to access Canal middle. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Aug 25 15:15:50 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Michael549 on Sun Aug 25 11:10:13 2013. Yes. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Aug 25 15:20:32 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Aug 24 23:42:02 2013. Those signs could bring a nice price today! |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Aug 25 16:09:17 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 25 10:21:19 2013. And why are the upstairs platforms set up the way they are? |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Aug 25 16:26:57 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Aug 25 16:09:17 2013. The platforms at 42nd/8Av, why are they set up in tandem, unlike the rest of the stations? |
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Re: Essex- After the IND |
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Posted by jabrams on Sun Aug 25 17:05:19 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND, posted by Handbrake on Sat Aug 24 22:43:59 2013. Instead of overkill with the massive mezzanines, there should have been overkill with the crossovers: diamond crossovers before West 4th Brooklyn Bound, crossovers from the G to/from A/C at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, and others in Queens that I'm not to familiar with. The location of the express stops usually did not account for later transfers to the other divisions (of course at that time they were in competition. On the A/C - express at Franklin rather than Nostrand, express stop on the F/G at 4th Ave., etc. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by jabrams on Sun Aug 25 17:26:42 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by randyo on Sun Aug 25 15:09:39 2013. Wasn't the Broadway-Brooklyn local gone prior to Christie Street opening? |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 25 17:32:55 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by jabrams on Sun Aug 25 17:26:42 2013. No. That's a contradiction in termsThe KK, then the K (sans Jamaica), was the only train to ever serve it, and ran while the QJ, then the J (Nassau St M swap), was the Jamaica Express. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 25 17:36:23 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND, posted by jabrams on Sun Aug 25 17:05:19 2013. < crossovers from the G to/from A/C at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, >They wanted to , but couldn't. Combination of grade separation and turning radius made it impossible. There should have been more ways to relay trains within Manhattan, like at 59th CPW, a 3rd track/2 platforms affair at 57th / 6th. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 25 17:41:44 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by randyo on Sun Aug 25 15:04:38 2013. Since the logic was not always followed, I stand behind my theory. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Aug 25 17:50:24 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Aug 25 16:26:57 2013. the super wide platforms..the BOT knew this would have been busy station,so they built it to accommodate..with extra long mezzanine. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 25 17:51:28 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Aug 25 16:26:57 2013. Lack of street width to build what they wanted |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun Aug 25 17:54:27 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Handbrake on Sat Aug 24 23:25:56 2013. During recent renovations, unfortunately, they closed up the spaces which allowed people on the Essex St uptown platform to see the trackways. I wonder if there is any evidence in the uptown Chrystie Street connector, just before it links up with the uptown J/Z track.Some other evidence of the Brooklyn Bridge ramp: looking south from the downtown local track at Chambers, you can see the platform foundation (not the platform) continue to rise up, then make a left turn in the general direction of the Brooklyn Bridge. The J/Z track, OTOH, continues at a level grade and makes a right turn. This is also pretty evident when you ride a J/Z train southbound from Chambers, you can see what appears to be a wall rise up then turn away. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Aug 25 17:57:13 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND, posted by jabrams on Sun Aug 25 17:05:19 2013. Nostrand was PLANNED as a local stop. |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun Aug 25 18:06:03 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Aug 25 14:07:18 2013. They also used it when the Williamsburg Bridge was closed to train traffic several years back and shuttle buses were used. IIRC, they actually built makeshift station entrances and people would descend stairways and a short ramp which still had the wooden bannisters and old mezzanine equipment. You then used the underpass to go to the uptown platform to catch the train. Once the train service resumed, they removed the entrance structures and put the current emergency entrances. It's also possible they completely covered one or more stairs with concrete. Occasionally, they open the entrances when workers need to bring stuff down there. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sun Aug 25 18:22:07 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND, posted by Edwards! on Sun Aug 25 17:57:13 2013. Correct. The upper platforms and tracks are actually built in the space that was supposed to be nostrand's mezzanine. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun Aug 25 18:28:08 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Aug 24 09:06:31 2013. Not anymore, what you see there now is mostly the full wall platform. Several years ago they renovated the wall platform (one of the D-type trips dropped riders off on that platform during that time too), and they demolished the wall, exposing the abandoned stairways and plumbing (maybe for rest rooms?). As I remember it, there were at least 2 stairways I could see by peeking through the wooden walls, but I had trouble getting pics. They would have been located right at the corner of Essex and Delancey. Now, virtually all traces of what was there have been eliminated, aside from the empty ceiling space which is just under the sidewalk.Prior to that, my memory is fuzzy, but I remember the old wall was tiled in the '60s style (the way Grand St is). I think it was like that for decades, maybe even earlier than '89. I vaguely remember my siblings complaining about how they reduced the width of the wall platform as far back as the '70s, when they used the station regularly going to high school. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun Aug 25 18:32:37 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND, posted by jabrams on Sun Aug 25 17:05:19 2013. diamond crossovers before West 4th Brooklyn BoundAre you sure there aren't? I'm certain there are diamond crossovers between local/express and express/express, unless the express/express ones have been removed. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun Aug 25 18:35:39 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 25 17:41:44 2013. I'm not sure about that theory. Canal St was/is a big commercial center, so an express stop wouldn't be unheard of. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by VictorM on Sun Aug 25 18:39:34 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by jabrams on Sun Aug 25 17:26:42 2013. If you mean the Broadway Brooklyn local to Canal St, it ran for about 7 months after the first part of Chrystie St opened in late Nov. 1967 until the KK local began running to 57 St/6 Av in early July 1968. |
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Posted by VictorM on Sun Aug 25 18:47:46 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND, posted by 3-9 on Sun Aug 25 18:32:37 2013. They should have built a crossover in the Brooklyn bound direction between W4 and B'way Laf going from the F track to the B/D track. Thet way things are now a Brooklyn bound B or D that's diverted down 8th Av can't access the Manhattan Bridge. |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun Aug 25 19:03:27 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND, posted by VictorM on Sun Aug 25 18:47:46 2013. I heard at one point there was, but they took it out for whatever reason. |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 25 19:27:26 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by 3-9 on Sun Aug 25 18:35:39 2013. It was not on the IRT. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Aug 25 19:41:08 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sun Aug 25 18:22:07 2013. And, beyond this, we know precious little about Nostrand/Fulton and the alleged Nostrand Ave subway. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sun Aug 25 20:01:13 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Aug 25 19:41:08 2013. don`t you mean the Bedford ave.subway. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Aug 25 20:01:13 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 25 17:51:28 2013. I'm still amazed that they built such a big subway station that went from 40th St-44th St. The bus terminal didn't open until 1950 and that section of 8th Ave was still an undeveloped part of Hell's Kitchen. |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun Aug 25 20:04:09 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 25 19:27:26 2013. The IRT was further west, away from the center. Perhaps the planners felt it was worth it because the station was at the edge, and with the imminent demise of the 6th Ave el, there would be no service until you reach Broadway. Also note that IND plaaners were in no hurry to skip a lot of stops south of 59th St. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Aug 25 20:05:02 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND, posted by tunnelrat on Sun Aug 25 20:01:13 2013. Yea, Bedford Ave, sorry! I presume that this was another proposed IND project? |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 25 20:11:03 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Aug 25 20:01:13 2013. They probably wanted to do better at 34th but were hemmed in by Penn Station and the Post Office. The local platforms are much too narrow. Few people use the under-track mezzanine very far north in fear of missing their train as they walk. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Aug 25 20:16:26 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Aug 25 20:05:02 2013. Yes. Since the IND was originally meant to be Hylan's tool for putting both the IRT and BMT out of business, a Bedford Av subway more or less midway between the IRT Nostrand Av Line and the BMT Brighton Line would have assisted in accomplishing that purpose. By the time the IND construction was started, however, Hylan was out of office and the BMT was actually invited to operate the new subway which it declined to do unless it could raise the fare above a nickel. keeping that in mind, certain anti BMT projects like the Bedford Av subway were deferred to the point where it was not even a part of the IND "second system." Of course certain lines like Fulton St for example were being specifically designed to eliminate el structures in certain areas and since neither the BMT's Brighton Line nor the IRT's Nostrand line were els the idea of a Bedford subway became even less important than some of the others. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Sun Aug 25 20:18:38 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Aug 24 09:06:31 2013. That's interesting. In the 1989 renovation, with primitive mosaics, are you referring to the sky-blue "Essex St." tablet that used to be there?I could see that it was not very old... |
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Re: Essex- After the IND |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Aug 25 20:22:48 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND, posted by 3-9 on Sun Aug 25 19:03:27 2013. The Xover between B1 and B3 tk was south of Bway/Laf in typical IND fashion but when Chrystie was being planned, it was removed. The only reason I can think of for its removal is that in order to start the ramp up to Chrystie without the grade being too steep, the rise had to be started in the area of the Xover. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Handbrake on Sun Aug 25 20:24:26 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 25 19:27:26 2013. While JFK was assassinated in Dallas, and a conspiracy theory persists, here in New York I believe there is no conspiracy theory about the NYC operated subway wanting to siphon off traffic from the privately run BMT line. The city built the subways for the purpose of development of real estate values, and to raise the tax base to support the city provided services needed to foster commercial success.Believe what you wish, NYC always had an option to buy out the privately run transit companies that used the city built subway tunnels. Running the privates into the ground to make it less expensive to purchase, possibly, but not to put them out of business in the manner of transit fan folklore. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Aug 25 20:26:14 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND, posted by 3-9 on Sun Aug 25 19:03:27 2013. The Xover between B1 and B3 tk was south of Bway/Laf in typical IND fashion but when Chrystie was being planned, it was removed. The only reason I can think of for its removal is that in order to start the ramp up to Chrystie without the grade being too steep, the rise had to be started in the area of the Xover. |
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