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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by grand concourse on Wed Mar 21 11:29:49 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by randyo on Tue Mar 20 14:26:50 2012. Very interesting. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by grand concourse on Wed Mar 21 11:42:30 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Mar 21 01:24:20 2012. Then why not do something 'simpler' and connect the SAS to the Concourse line and have people transfer back on the Manhattan bound D? And for SAS to 161st, people would be better off taking the 4 at Lexington av than stay on a line that makes a long u shaped detour to the west side just to return back east.By your logic, they could've built some connection b/w the 7 and the 7th av lines somewhere b/w 42nd and 34th and make it easier to move trains b/w the lines (cut out b division entirely). |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by grand concourse on Wed Mar 21 11:45:52 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Concourse Express on Wed Mar 21 01:26:37 2012. Ah, I see. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by grand concourse on Wed Mar 21 11:47:55 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Avid Reader on Wed Mar 21 09:25:54 2012. The LGA AT could work if built over the Grand central pkwy the way the JfK AT was built over the Van Wyck. Have the terminal be built over the Astoria Blvd stop. |
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Re: Connecting the Fulton el to DeKalb (Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Mar 21 15:30:29 2012, in response to Re: Connecting the Fulton el to DeKalb (Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Edwards! on Wed Mar 21 03:55:52 2012. Even though the tracks actually going over the BB would have been removed, Sands St could still have been retained as a Bkln terminal on the east side of the river. It would have been especially useful now that a mini CBD has been developed in downtown Bkln and since the area where the Sands St terminal was is now largely open space with the addition of a few exit and entrance ramps for the BB, that development would not have been precluded by the presence of the terminal. |
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Re: Connecting the Fulton el to DeKalb (Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Mar 21 15:41:46 2012, in response to Re: Connecting the Fulton el to DeKalb (Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by randyo on Wed Mar 21 15:30:29 2012. Yeah..the problem here is called "urban renewal"..under the guise of ROBERT MOSES and other developers.There was no way the elevated would have remained standing once the IND finished the 8th Avenue Subway's Crosstown links..or Houston st lines. If the city allowed the BMT to build and operate its version of the 8th av line ,I believe the Sands st structure would still be removed. |
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Re: Connecting the Fulton el to DeKalb (Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Mar 21 17:24:51 2012, in response to Re: Connecting the Fulton el to DeKalb (Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Edwards! on Wed Mar 21 15:41:46 2012. If the Fulton el had been upgraded as planned, the IND Fulton Line would not have been built and the Crosstown Line would probably had a slightly different profile. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by J trainloco on Wed Mar 21 17:48:19 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Avid Reader on Wed Mar 21 09:25:54 2012. None [of the routes mentioned by J trainloco] would be as benificial as the connection from the B'way BMT to the CPW IND.How did you reach that conclusion? Each of the projects I listed provides service to areas that don't presently have it, or in areas that do have it, adds a new corridor that opens up new travel options. On the other hand, the CPW/Broadway BMT connector would not offer people options beyond what already exist. Broadway is one block away from 6th avenue at 49th st and 42nd st, and they share a station at 34th. If you need a point beyond 34th, and absolutely must have Broadway, you transfer. Furthermore, how would you even operate such a service? As pointed out by others, both lines have a significant amount of service already. Finally, a simple cost-benefit study would show that the extremely high cost of building two flying junctions onto two continuously operated lines in an area with significant existing utilities and extremely dense property development for the benefit of eliminating a single transfer or a one block walk is just not worth it. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 21 18:40:09 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by J trainloco on Wed Mar 21 17:48:19 2012. SPECTACULAR POST!!! |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Wed Mar 21 20:52:38 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by grand concourse on Wed Mar 21 11:47:55 2012. That's how I envisioned it. That and two tiered helix circling the parking area.First and upper level for departures, trains fumigate. Trains continue around going to lower lever to pick up arriving passengers, then depart to NYC or JFK. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Wed Mar 21 20:58:47 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by randyo on Wed Mar 21 03:28:14 2012. The "new" type have many advantages over the older noisy steel structures. The one down side is not getting a good view of arching from the third rail during snow storms. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Gene B. on Wed Mar 21 21:38:43 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by merrick1 on Sat Mar 10 20:18:04 2012. That is true for any line which runs through several boroughs. On the flip side, you have flexibility in getting passengers to their destin ations in cases of power outages, rail problems or worse. You could also use your imagination and send the E to Brooklyn or create a new line which goes from Brooklyn up 8th Ave to 168th St. That is pretty much what the BMT was going to do with the stub ends on the local tracks at 7th Av and 57th St. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Mar 21 21:40:23 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by J trainloco on Wed Mar 21 17:48:19 2012. "Finally, a simple cost-benefit study would show that the extremely high cost of building two flying junctions onto two continuously operated lines in an area with significant existing utilities and extremely dense property development for the benefit of eliminating a single transfer or a one block walk is just not worth it."Based on the cost of connecting 63 St to the Queens Blvd IND, I will hazard a guess that connecting the Broadway BMT to the 8 Ave IND would cost at least $2 billion. I would rather spend my imaginary $2 billion on more useful projects. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by J trainloco on Wed Mar 21 22:53:12 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Mar 21 21:40:23 2012. I'm not even sure you could compare it to the 63rd connector. That project was in a far less developed area, with one connection joining up to the end of a pair of tracks (queensbridge) that were always intended to be connected to something, and the other connection hooking into a line in an area where it had an extra trackway. I agree that I'd rather dump my pretend monies somewhere else. Even if I wanted to connect two nearby existing lines I would want to do it elsewhere. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Mar 21 23:20:03 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 21 18:40:09 2012. he does have a point.. |
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Re: SAS Across 125th Street |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Mar 22 05:06:32 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 21 02:04:11 2012. It's not just flexibility:My real plan for that would be for the SAS to go all the way across to 12th Avenue-Broadway to a low elevated terminal there, with transfers along the way (in addition to the 4/5/6 at Lexington) to the (2)/(3) at Lenox Avenue, the (A)/(B)/(C)/(D) at St. Nicholas (and a connection there to those tracks) and the (1) at Broadway. As mentioned before, I'd be looking at this mainly because of Columbia expanding up that way, which would likely be complete by the time the SAS got that far. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Mar 22 05:07:31 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by grand concourse on Wed Mar 21 11:42:30 2012. As said in my other comment, the real aspect of that would be to have a terminal at 12th Avenue-Broadway that would help serve what would be by then a severely expanded Columbia University. |
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Re: SAS Across 125th Street |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Mar 22 07:11:53 2012, in response to Re: SAS Across 125th Street, posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Mar 22 05:06:32 2012. Columbia or not, it would be nice to see a 125th St crosstown service just for the extra connections. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Thu Mar 22 09:04:54 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by J trainloco on Wed Mar 21 17:48:19 2012. While all of the routes you mentioned, would go to new areas, none give route insurance.These junctions do just that. They either allow for a continuance to the original terminal and a return to the original route, however big or small. If not a continuance, at least service close to the original route affected. Your extensions are just that, or new lines. Like the "new" Second Avenue Line, 70 years in the making. Hows that working for you? Its kind of like comparing Apples and oranges. You have your preferences, I have mine. But our preferences DON'T make the others Stupid or worthless. The Christy Street connector, The Essex/6th Ave connector, and the 21St Street / Northern Blvd Connector had a drastic impact on service, and hold great potential, in the event of problems elsewhere. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Thu Mar 22 09:08:11 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by J trainloco on Wed Mar 21 22:53:12 2012. On CPW , there are alreadt two extra trackways waiting. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Mar 22 13:45:08 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Avid Reader on Thu Mar 22 09:08:11 2012. Where? |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Thu Mar 22 15:55:14 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by randyo on Thu Mar 22 13:45:08 2012. The lay-up tracks on both levels, between W72Nd and W81St Streets. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Concourse Express on Thu Mar 22 17:06:55 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Avid Reader on Thu Mar 22 15:55:14 2012. Um, there's only one layup track on each level (between the lcl and exp tracks) in that region, and I don't recall provisions or plans for additional trackways there...my blog |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by merrick1 on Thu Mar 22 19:36:53 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by randyo on Wed Mar 21 03:28:14 2012. But the Sunnyside viaduct did exist. It was always much quieter than the regular els. My grandmother lived half-a-block away on 45th Street. You could barely notice the sound during the day and in the middle of the night there was a nice clickety-clack sound. Now with welded rail it is even quieter. Another benefit is that on rainy days you can walk under the el and not get wet. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 22 20:12:18 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Mar 21 21:40:23 2012. What made connecting the 63rd Street line hell was :1) It was never designed to be connected to th3e Queens IND in the 1st place (but BMT was supposed to run up CPW). 2) Digging a tunnel in western Queens quicksand. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by J trainloco on Thu Mar 22 22:06:14 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Avid Reader on Thu Mar 22 09:04:54 2012. While all of the routes you mentioned,would go to new areas,Generally, that's exactly what you want to do when you build a new route. none give route insurance. These junctions do just that. So you would propose spending billions to connect two lines not to expand service or add capacity, but to allow routing flexibility? No disrespect, but that's a bad idea. This is a capital cost likely in the billions that would likely be used a few weekends a year for trackwork, and for a few incident re-routes, but not much else. What makes this proposal look even worse is that the 6th avenue trunk line already HAS flexibility to and from south brooklyn. An incident North of W4th can be avoided by switching to the local north of B'way lafayette and then using 8th avenue. Whilel the same opportunity doesn't exist southbound, constructing 2 switches between W4 and Bway lafayette would be exponentially cheaper than bulding your proposed connector. I'm honestly dumbfounded that if you were in charge of route planning, you would tell people in areas with NO subway service that it was a higher priority to build more infrastructure for passengers who already have two lines. Your extensions are just that,or new lines. Like the "new" Second Avenue Line,70 years in the making. Hows that working for you? What point are you making here? SAS funding issues are no reflection on its merit. And by that same token, extensions of the BMT Broadway line to points north have been on the table for just as long, and NOTHING has come of them. You have your preferences,I have mine. But our preferences DON'T make the others Stupid or worthless. I know as a society we want to encourage individual thinking and all, but sometimes ideas that are different are bad. The Christy Street connector,The Essex/6th Ave connector,and the 21St Street / Northern Blvd Connector had a drastic impact on service,and hold great potential,in the event of problems elsewhere. But each of those projects added something significant. First of all, the Christie connector project encompassed both the 6th avenue express connection to the manhattan bridge A/B tracks AND the connection between the 6th ave local tracks and Essex street. This project was worthwhile because it effectively opened up the completely untapped capacity of the 6th ave express tracks to usage by Brooklyn riders. Meanwhile the Brooklyn side of the east river had expresses from 3 branches vying for space on one side of the bridge while the other side duplicated an unpopular lower manhattan route. The level of midtown service we have today would not be possible without Chrystie. As for the other half of Chrystie, it was tacked onto the existing project, and provided service to midtown... and sat pretty much unused for over 30 years. As for the 63rd connector, its value can be summed up like this: prior to the construction of 63rd, there was a total of 3 pairs of tracks between Queens and manhattan, and Brooklyn had 9 pairs. The 63rd connector was simply the culmination of decades of work to add needed capacity. It was not an ancillary connector between two existing through routes. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by grand concourse on Thu Mar 22 22:21:42 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by J trainloco on Thu Mar 22 22:06:14 2012. +1If only they build that Queens super express to give QB some relief. Connect that to 63rd and maybe the SAS southern segment and 63rd is more than justified. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Mar 23 00:35:43 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by J trainloco on Thu Mar 22 22:06:14 2012. I agree with your points...but must correct you on one major point.The Williamsburg Bridge portion of the Chrystie st project was never a "tact on".. It was a well planned project,actually part of the SAS that was diverted to Houston st/6th avenue when it was understood the SAS would be delayed once again...but its connections[provisions to the SAS] were partially build like the provisions from the Nassau st Loop to the SAS.. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 23 01:16:24 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Avid Reader on Thu Mar 22 15:55:14 2012. Since the layup tracks are right on top of each other and between the revenue tracks, there would be no way for them to be used to connect them to any other line due to lack of clearance. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 23 01:21:21 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by merrick1 on Thu Mar 22 19:36:53 2012. True, but the Sunnyside el is basically the same type of structure as the Smith St and Rockaway els and not comparable to the Kennedy Airtrain structure. |
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Re: SAS Across 125th Street |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Mar 23 03:37:52 2012, in response to Re: SAS Across 125th Street, posted by 3-9 on Thu Mar 22 07:11:53 2012. It would definitely be nice to have it anyway:The pending expansion of Columbia University simply shows the pressing need for such a service to be built. It would be a logical extension of the SAS across 125th Street, either as underground or elevated (and it would as I would do it end as elevated anyway due to the deep valley 125th Street is at under Broadway that has the (1) elevated there). |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Mar 23 03:42:06 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by randyo on Wed Mar 21 03:26:15 2012. Agreed, however:Sometimes such double crossover lines are needed in case of an emergency. I would have it so when needed, double crossovers can be done that would for instance allow 6th Avenue trains to access the SAS if for instance there are problems either on CPW (B/D) or Queens Boulevard (F). Same reason as part of a Phase 2 extension across 125th Street (to Broadway-12th Avenue) if such were underground, it would include a connection to the St. Nicholas Avenue branch of the 8th Avenue line. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Mar 23 08:39:16 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 22 20:12:18 2012. You have that backwards. It was the QB IND that was not designed to connect to 63rd. It didn't matter what 63rd was designed for. Similarly, the IND CPW line was NOT designed to connect to Broadway. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Mar 23 08:39:46 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Mar 21 21:40:23 2012. EXCELLENT POST! |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Mar 23 08:52:31 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by randyo on Wed Mar 21 03:26:15 2012. well.. that doesnt include the 6th and 8th ave routes through the west 4th st junction since "straight railing" would send 8th ave locals to Houston st,6th ave locals to the WTC or Brooklyn. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Fri Mar 23 09:51:13 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by randyo on Fri Mar 23 01:16:24 2012. Think, think out of the box.You approach both layup tracks at the same time. You have the approaching tracks, one on top of the other, dip under CPW, and come from the bottom up. Ramp on top of ramp. The top ramp keeps going up, passing through the lower layup. When the upper level approach reaches the upper level layup, the lower level approach will be reaching the lower level layup, and VIOLA! both approaches are at the layups, and have access to, or from the express, and local tracks on their respective levels. Do you see it now? |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Mar 23 09:51:33 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by J trainloco on Thu Mar 22 22:06:14 2012. Another excellent post. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 23 13:52:31 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Avid Reader on Fri Mar 23 09:51:13 2012. The problem with doing that at this point is that major construction work involving removal of the existing trackways and construction of the ramps would have to be done between 2 pairs of active in service tracks not to mention the necessity to constructing an extremely deep level subway infrastructure beneath the exiting CPW subway shell. Such construction would very likely compromise the integrity of the existing CPW subway shell to the point of making it a t best prohibitively expensive and at worst impossible or highly impractical. Even if such a connection could be practicably built, the connection would still have to filter any new service in between the 2 existing local services and 2 existing express services where capacity for any new service really doesn't exist. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 23 13:55:05 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Mar 23 08:39:16 2012. Correct. The BMT Bway Subway was to have been connected to CPW only until the IND was built. Once the IND subway was built under CPW, the need for a BMT line up CPW was for all practical purposes eliminated. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 23 13:56:55 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Mar 23 03:42:06 2012. In cases of emergency I would agree, however as a normal service pattern, too many double Xover moves tend to delay service as was the case with the pre 1959 West Side IRT. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 23 13:59:33 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Edwards! on Fri Mar 23 08:52:31 2012. But those moves at W4 St are not true "double Xover" moves since a 6 Av train can access the WTC corridor and an 8 Av train can access Houston St simultaneously which cannot be done with a diamond Xover. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sat Mar 24 23:14:15 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Edwards! on Fri Mar 23 00:35:43 2012. What provisions for the SAS exist in the Nassau Street loop? The only SAS provision I know of is the bits of trackways north of Grand St. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Mar 24 23:48:11 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by 3-9 on Sat Mar 24 23:14:15 2012. sealed trackways...along with a short road tunnel. |
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Re: SAS Across 125th Street |
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Posted by E and F and sometimes J on Sun Mar 25 07:05:16 2012, in response to Re: SAS Across 125th Street, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Mar 23 03:37:52 2012. Instead of building to 125th St, you should curve the subway to 135th St. There you have room to expand to a two platform 3 track station because of the layup tracks underground.A three track, two platform station would have the the 125th St, train terminating on the middle track and the 1 trains on the outer track. This way you avoid the Harlem valley and some serious NIMBY issues. |
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Re: SAS Across 125th Street |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sun Mar 25 09:24:51 2012, in response to Re: SAS Across 125th Street, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Sun Mar 25 07:05:16 2012. Yes, but the main reason I would be going across 125 is because of Columbia's expansion. Especially if THEY are willing to pay for such an extension that benefits them, that can overcome NIMBY issues for 125th. Also, going across 125 has the connections to the other lines.That said, how would you curve to 135th, which is really only six-seven blocks because 125th already has gone a few blocks northwest by the time it gets to Broadway, actually close to 129th Street? |
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Re: SAS Across 125th Street |
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Posted by E and F and sometimes J on Sun Mar 25 09:59:37 2012, in response to Re: SAS Across 125th Street, posted by Wallyhorse on Sun Mar 25 09:24:51 2012. Tunnel from west of Frederick Douglass Blvd, to Broadway.Honestly you're not going to get an el on 125th St. |
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Re: SAS Across 125th Street |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Sun Mar 25 10:44:52 2012, in response to Re: SAS Across 125th Street, posted by Wallyhorse on Sun Mar 25 09:24:51 2012. Columbia is a Liberal institution. As such, they take other peoples money and give it away, not there own money.Forget real help form Columbia. |
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Re: SAS Across 125th Street |
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Posted by JayMan on Sun Mar 25 11:02:14 2012, in response to Re: SAS Across 125th Street, posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Mar 22 05:06:32 2012. Umm, what about the 125th St fault? |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Sun Mar 25 11:06:34 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Edwards! on Sat Mar 24 23:48:11 2012. Confucius Square is there as well. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sun Mar 25 11:12:01 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Edwards! on Sat Mar 24 23:48:11 2012. aren`t they both the same? |
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