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| The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St (1143727) | |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by The Silence on Thu Mar 8 19:28:11 2012, in response to The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Thu Mar 8 18:16:59 2012. waste of time and money. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Mar 8 21:28:16 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by The Silence on Thu Mar 8 19:28:11 2012. wrong.It would eliminate a major bottle neck if done properly |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by The Silence on Thu Mar 8 21:40:11 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Edwards! on Thu Mar 8 21:28:16 2012. I've gone through dozens of scenarios in my head and all of them lead back to the fact that all it will do is reinforce the lazyness of the one seat ride.and what bottle neck are you talking about?, if anything, this could cause one. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by znufrii on Thu Mar 8 22:15:50 2012, in response to The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Thu Mar 8 18:16:59 2012. Honestly, what in God's name would be the point of that? |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by The Silence on Thu Mar 8 22:37:44 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by znufrii on Thu Mar 8 22:15:50 2012. spending $100 million to avoid the future need of having to get up and walk 20 yards... |
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| (1143761) | |
Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by grand concourse on Fri Mar 9 00:05:23 2012, in response to The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Thu Mar 8 18:16:59 2012. at the risk of being 'out there' the way wallyhorse is on any fantasy idea:I would like this to be just for the E to replace the R and go to Brooklyn. E would go strait down to Whitehall and to Brooklyn. Whitehall can short turn some trains so the Queens end will have the service they need. southern brooklyn will then have a direct 8th av line and people wanting Broadway would just take the N/Q. That way the R doesn't have to make that sharp turn to cortlandt from city hall. Maybe they could terminate the R on the lower level and build a physical connection from the 2/3 at Park Place to the R on the current level (current downtown track would be eliminated for the connection to the platform). |
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| (1143774) | |
Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by piyer on Fri Mar 9 01:42:47 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by grand concourse on Fri Mar 9 00:05:23 2012. At the risk of taking the fantasy idea a step further...If you don't have the shortened R-train terminating at City Hall, then the twin level City Hall station could become the new location of the Transit Museum - 5 tracks instead of 2 for displaying equipment - and with nothing using Canal Street's upper platforms, they could even have an operating train out and back from the museum. Moving the Transit Museum would 1) make it more accessible to the tourist trade, and 2) free up the Court Street stub for the 2nd Avenue subway to link to in, O! 5 or 6 hundred years from now. :o\ |
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| (1143776) | |
Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by grand concourse on Fri Mar 9 02:09:31 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by piyer on Fri Mar 9 01:42:47 2012. Where are you going to send the R? The R has to run thru City Hall. I doubt terminating at Canal and getting people to walk that passageway to take the 6 will fly.City Hall should stay in service. As for the Transit museum, there's the Centre st platforms from Canal to Bowery that are unused and can use Bowery for the entrance. |
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| (1143778) | |
Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Concourse Express on Fri Mar 9 02:19:11 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by piyer on Fri Mar 9 01:42:47 2012. The SAS need not recapture Court St IND and displace the NYTM; besides, there's rows of private property behind the station. Methinks one could build a tunnel under neighboring State St and implement an at-grade connection to the Schermerhorn St trackage (i.e. Museum tunnel tracks) west of Hoyt. If feasible, incorporate an additional connection to the Culver line.my blog |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by piyer on Fri Mar 9 02:44:36 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by grand concourse on Fri Mar 9 02:09:31 2012. I did say "fantasy," yes? ;o)But, to give your question an answer... Q-train runs to UES (2nd Ave extension), N-train runs local in Manhattan and goes to 71 Ave in Queens, and either a shuttle or, preferably, a new #8 train handles Astoria service and linking to all the N-S trunklines in Manhattan. No need to use the City Hall stub as the R-train would be replaced by the extended N and E lines. |
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| (1143780) | |
Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Mar 9 02:47:00 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by The Silence on Thu Mar 8 22:37:44 2012. Actually, that would be a very helpful item if it can be done because it would allow for instance if there is a G.O. on the Manny B 6th Avenue trains to access its normal line at West 4th via the Broadway and 6th Avenue lines and likewise in an emergency allow the (R) to run via 6th and 8th Avenue and reconnect with its regular line via such a connection.This would be a lot more than people being lazy and looking for a one-seat ride. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Fri Mar 9 09:50:56 2012, in response to The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Thu Mar 8 18:16:59 2012. Now pay close attention.There are bellmouths on the 8th Ave local tracks, just south of Canal Street. These were to be part of the Second IND System. They were to go beneath Thomas Street, heading East. Open them up, and bore through, and connect to the Lower Level of the Broadway Line. Restore the Lower Level Station at Chambers St. Merge the upper level, and lower level ramps south of the Station, and continue south to Cortland St. You still retain the WTC Terminal for the "E", and get a connection for through service for "E" to "R" and the benifit of G.O. flexibility. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Dan on Fri Mar 9 09:56:47 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by The Silence on Thu Mar 8 21:40:11 2012. Might be engineering issues that would make such a connection physically impossible. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Fri Mar 9 10:25:56 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Dan on Fri Mar 9 09:56:47 2012. We go to the moon, because it is hard! |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by grand concourse on Fri Mar 9 13:16:04 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by piyer on Fri Mar 9 02:44:36 2012. Well you left that part out, so how was I to know you planned to have just 2 lines on Broadway?But the Flushing line is fairly crowded as is, I don't think those ancient tubes can support another line going thru it.*I understand it is fantasy. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Mar 9 15:44:35 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by piyer on Fri Mar 9 01:42:47 2012. don`t you mean 4 tracks,not 5. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by E and F and sometimes J on Fri Mar 9 15:49:49 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Dan on Fri Mar 9 09:56:47 2012. There might be some unknown difficulty. It's been 80 years and it has not been seriously considered other than the building of the WTC ( not Chambers St) platform.I can't imagine what the engineering issue might be. The IND platform was purpose built to connect to the BMT Broadway line at Cortlandt St. The leveling, the angle, even the I-beams are set up so that the tracks can be extended and all that would have to be removed is the wall separating the two stations. I am even willing to bet that the tracks were built to be angled in such a way that there would be no need for platform reconstruction inside the Cortlandt St, BMT station. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by E and F and sometimes J on Fri Mar 9 16:02:34 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by grand concourse on Fri Mar 9 00:05:23 2012. That idea is an interesting one. I think it workable.In my original idea, if we are going to Brooklyn, I think the R should terminate at Whitehall and the E become the 4th Ave local. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by E and F and sometimes J on Fri Mar 9 16:09:21 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Avid Reader on Fri Mar 9 09:50:56 2012. The WTC platform and Cortlandt St, station are so close together that I think the WTC platform should be closed for revenue service.For example: This is a Whitehall St bound E train. This stop is Canal St, the next stop on this E train will be Cortlandt St. Please stand clear of the closing doors! |
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| (1143844) | |
Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Fri Mar 9 16:40:29 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Avid Reader on Fri Mar 9 09:50:56 2012. Please forgive my mistake. I referenced Chambers St.IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN CITY HALL. SORRY FOR THE STUPID ERROR. I'm a big (_0_) |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Mar 9 17:01:56 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Avid Reader on Fri Mar 9 09:50:56 2012. those belmouths were for the worth st.subway. |
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| (1143848) | |
Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Mar 9 17:04:40 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Fri Mar 9 16:02:34 2012. Given how frequent the E is, it's best to either build the connection and sever the R or keep that as for emergencies/GOs or non revenue moves. I don't think it should be for both at the same time. The E will likely be using Whitehall quite a bit since demand is for Queens vs in Brooklyn. The R is not needed since people can always take the 4/5 to Union Sq or the 1/2/3 to 42nd. |
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| (1143849) | |
Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Mar 9 17:06:02 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Mar 9 15:44:35 2012. Lower level is a 3 track 2 island platform station [just like Whitehall]. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Mar 9 17:08:51 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Fri Mar 9 16:09:21 2012. Yes, if the E were to continue south, the WTC platform would be closed [turned into a mezzanine connected to the two side platforms of Cortlandt to allow for a direct transfer to the A/C/2/3 lines] while the trains stops at Cortlandt. |
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| (1143854) | |
Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Mar 9 17:25:54 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Mar 9 17:06:02 2012. I should have remembered that,thanks. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Gene B. on Fri Mar 9 17:38:37 2012, in response to The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Thu Mar 8 18:16:59 2012. Great idea. I have advanced this proposal several times before on this site. It provides lots of GO flexibility and can provide Brooklyn riders with a one seat ride to upper Manhattan or out Queens Blvd., depending upon how the E, R and N are rerouted after the connection is made. It has been set up to be a minimal connecting job. I am of the belief that it was intended to extend the IND over BMT trackage and more extensively into Brooklyn. Most importantly, if the E went through the Montague St. tunnel, it would stop at Court St. and provide the only Brooklyn free transfer between the IRT and the Manhattan IND, even if it is technically on BMT trackage. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Mar 9 17:41:22 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Mar 9 17:25:54 2012. np. But I don't think that station should be turned into a TM. It should be kept around as a terminal or perhaps in the future connected to a river tunnel [for lower level] to Brooklyn. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Mar 9 17:43:50 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Gene B. on Fri Mar 9 17:38:37 2012. Yup, agreed. Obviously with the Jay St transfer, southern Brooklyn finally has a direct connection [don't need the shuttle] to 8th av. But it would also be nice if they had an 8th av line that served them directly. Broadway and 6th Av are the only choices, why not 8th av as well?If the E replace the R, then it's not a big deal since broadway already has the N and Q. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Mar 9 18:05:13 2012, in response to The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Thu Mar 8 18:16:59 2012. If the BMT and IND are level, there would be an at grade junction, which is bad for bot the E and R.Furthermore, a 1-track turn-around at Whitehall cannot relay a service running at 4 minute intervals given the narrow platform and pedestrian chaos that would result, even if the crews all fall back 1 train like at Times Sq. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Mar 9 18:19:12 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Joe V on Fri Mar 9 18:05:13 2012. Which is why if such a connection were to be built, only one line can run and I think it should be the E only. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by E and F and sometimes J on Fri Mar 9 18:51:22 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Gene B. on Fri Mar 9 17:38:37 2012. I like the sound of that. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by E and F and sometimes J on Fri Mar 9 19:00:20 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Mar 9 17:04:40 2012. While sending the E to Brooklyn would be a boon for 4th Ave riders, we cannot forget about the SI Ferry riders. SI Ferry riders would lose their only connection to Broadway before Union Square. Some might consider Broad St to far a walk. You can send both trains through the tunnel, but then you might have to much service along the 4th Ave line.. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by E and F and sometimes J on Fri Mar 9 19:06:59 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Avid Reader on Fri Mar 9 16:40:29 2012. All is forgiven :-)In review of my post I realized I didn't answer your question. You asked about the Second System provisions, not the WTC platform. I think that new construction as described would be prohibitively expensive. Since only a wall separates the WTC trackway and Cortlandt St, station I think it would be cheaper to send both the E and the R to Brooklyn if Whitehall St cannot be used as a useful terminal. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Mar 9 19:33:47 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Joe V on Fri Mar 9 18:05:13 2012. It doesn't need to turn around at Whitehall, the Montague is under-utilized and 4th ave could benefit from a return of a second local. Send half the Es to 9th ave upper. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 9 20:12:54 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Mar 9 17:08:51 2012. Actually, it would be more logical to keep the E WTC platform and close the Cortlandt St platform. With a little bit of engineering, it could still be made part of the Fulton St transit complex. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 9 20:15:19 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Mar 9 19:33:47 2012. Or use them to replace the lost rush hour M service on the West End. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 9 20:21:14 2012, in response to The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Thu Mar 8 18:16:59 2012. As I have mentioned in several posts, one of the original proposals for the IND was to connect the tracks at WTC with the BMT line N/O Cortlandt St and using the bellmouths S/O Whitehall and a new underwater tunnel connect to the stub terminal at Court St. BMT local service from Queens and mid Manhattan would then terminate at City Hall since there was at one time a space for a diamond Xover immediately N/O the station. Montague St tunnel service would then use Nassau St exclusively. Of course, none of that ever happened but if it had, the picture of rapid transit in NY would be quite different from what it is today. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Mar 9 20:28:54 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by randyo on Fri Mar 9 20:12:54 2012. Ok, sounds good. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Fri Mar 9 20:29:32 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Mar 9 17:01:56 2012. Thanks, I knew they had some fore thought for their placement. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Fri Mar 9 20:42:10 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Fri Mar 9 19:06:59 2012. Yes you are correct. Yet the way I describe it, you get to eat your cake and have, too! The current E terminal remains, and a through connection is made with a bonus stop at City Hall. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Mar 9 20:47:41 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Fri Mar 9 19:00:20 2012. SF riders can take the 4/5 which is a block north and can transfer to the 6 to canal for the N/Q/R. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Mar 9 20:49:23 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Fri Mar 9 19:00:20 2012. SF riders can take the 4/5 which is a block north and can transfer to the 6 to canal for the N/Q/R. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Mar 9 20:53:29 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by randyo on Fri Mar 9 20:21:14 2012. Another 'the more you know'. Man those IND plans were very ambitious. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by E and F and sometimes J on Fri Mar 9 21:18:43 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Mar 9 20:49:23 2012. So you turn a weekend two seat SI Ferry to the Broadway subway ride into a walk five blocks to make 1-2-3 possibly 4 transfers don't-pass-GO hell-ride? |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by E and F and sometimes J on Fri Mar 9 21:23:16 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by randyo on Fri Mar 9 20:21:14 2012. Interesting post. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Mar 9 21:23:46 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Fri Mar 9 21:18:43 2012. Well it's a sacrifice. You can't have both E and R trains crossing each other as the E is very frequent. It's that or you just have the connection used for emergency reroutes and leave the E alone.As for the walk, what 5 blocks? At most it's '2 blocks' (because the blocks are much smaller in that area) if you are walking along the park's edge. I've done that walk several times. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by E and F and sometimes J on Fri Mar 9 21:36:42 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Dan on Fri Mar 9 09:56:47 2012. The only possible engineering difficulty I can think of at the moment is if the WTC to Courtlandt connector was only built to handle 60' or 67' BMT standards. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Michael549 on Fri Mar 9 22:25:27 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Mar 9 20:47:41 2012. Purely just for reference, the #4 and #5 trains at Bowling Green are NOT A BLOCK NORTH of the Staten Island Ferry Terminal.This is one of times, when leaving well enough alone is the preferred method. Mike |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Sat Mar 10 00:06:01 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Michael549 on Fri Mar 9 22:25:27 2012. 2-3 blocks, not end of the world kind of walking. But the point was you can't have both, it comes down to one line or the other. I am only interested about such a connection from a flexibility stand point. Doesn't matter to me which line would get priority heading south. |
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