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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by italianstallion on Sun Mar 18 15:26:01 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Mar 18 15:19:04 2012.

I thought maybe so. But he said the local and the express deadended.

(1145297)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by randyo on Sun Mar 18 17:44:34 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by italianstallion on Sun Mar 18 15:26:01 2012.

The local trackways do not dead end but if tracks are ever installed as they should have been they can merge with the express tracks.

(1145320)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Avid Reader on Sun Mar 18 20:27:39 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Mar 18 15:19:04 2012.

No, it is not stupid.
You may not like it, perhaps because you may lack foresight or have difficulty with creative thought.
Someone thought of it long ago, but money and politics suspended the idea. It's time may not be now, but it is a fine sound idea.

(1145370)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Mar 19 02:43:29 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Avid Reader on Sun Mar 18 20:27:39 2012.

Someone thought of it until the CPW line was built. Now it's stupid.

And that ad hominem attack must have really involved a lot of "foresight" and "creative thought." Since I am apparently lacking according to you, I'll just tell it like it is and call you an asshole.

(1145374)

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Re: Broadway-CPW connection

Posted by Wallyhorse on Mon Mar 19 04:53:10 2012, in response to Re: Broadway-CPW connection, posted by Avid Reader on Sun Mar 18 11:04:41 2012.

True, we don't:

That said, it is something I'd be looking at building, possibly under the existing linee and set it up where it either joins the CPW line on the express tracks where those tracks change around to meet with the other changes that occur after 103rd Street or if it can stay on a lower level past there to a new lower level of 125th Street before coming up to join the 8th Avenue line (using the tracks between local and express) at 135th Street.

(1145382)

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Re: Broadway-CPW connection

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Mar 19 08:40:41 2012, in response to Re: Broadway-CPW connection, posted by Avid Reader on Sun Mar 18 11:04:41 2012.

LOL!

(1145386)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Avid Reader on Mon Mar 19 09:52:12 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Mar 19 02:43:29 2012.

Ah Ha, you have a thing for (_0_) !

(1145390)

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Re: Broadway-CPW connection

Posted by Avid Reader on Mon Mar 19 10:20:44 2012, in response to Re: Broadway-CPW connection, posted by Wallyhorse on Mon Mar 19 04:53:10 2012.

I was thinking of the two B'way tracks, North and south bound, stacked.
Both going under the quad cluster of CPW, to a point where the lay-up tracks are today.
Now at this point, the stacked duo,
would rise into the lay-up track cavity,
and have the advantage of selecting the express,
or local tracks,
for the desired service pattern.

(1145409)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Gene B. on Mon Mar 19 14:35:31 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Avid Reader on Sat Mar 17 11:30:24 2012.


I love this type of creative thinking, even if the $$$ are not there right now. The system needs this type of flexibility in order to efficiently move passengers around. Great idea for high priority on the list of future projects.

(1145416)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Edwards! on Mon Mar 19 16:06:26 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Mar 18 15:19:04 2012.

actually,its not such a bad idea after all..
there should be some interlining between the two routes..

(1145423)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Mar 19 17:02:47 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Edwards! on Mon Mar 19 16:06:26 2012.

CPW is already fed by 6th and 8th. There is no need for an additional service from Broadway, especially with the SAS underway.

(1145427)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Avid Reader on Mon Mar 19 17:12:10 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Edwards! on Mon Mar 19 16:06:26 2012.

If for some reason, the future SAS line went out of service north of 63Rd St, its service would be able to go north via CPW.

North, either from Courtland, or 57Th St. via 6Th or 7Th or both.

Keep those TBW chugging along!

(1145428)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Mar 19 17:28:24 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Mar 19 17:12:10 2012.

And what exactly would be the point? If the SAS went down they could turn trains around at 57th. People on a Broadway-SAS train don't want to go up CPW. If they did, they'd take a train that runs there in regular service.

(1145429)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Edwards! on Mon Mar 19 17:28:27 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Mar 19 17:02:47 2012.

yeah,and?

the IND planned to include the Broadway line on CPW from 59th st anyway until funding was shifted elsewhere[Chrystie st/6th ave express/11th st cut]..it was a good idea then..and it is now.

(1145431)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Mar 19 17:43:57 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Edwards! on Mon Mar 19 17:28:27 2012.

There is no evidence of that. The BMT planned a CPW line, but once the IND came along any plans for a Broadway connection were dead.

(1145432)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Edwards! on Mon Mar 19 17:50:10 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Mar 19 17:28:24 2012.

Since there is no such service right now..how would they know what the MTA is going to do..they might send 6th avenue trains up SAS and route Bway EXP trains to QB...

IT COULD HAPPEN.

(1145434)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Gene B. on Mon Mar 19 18:02:55 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Mar 11 17:04:53 2012.


I would have liked them to do the Utica line and also the IRT Nostrand line extension from its present terminal to Kings Plaza or Sheepshead Bay.

(1145439)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Edwards! on Mon Mar 19 18:23:36 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Mar 19 17:43:57 2012.

THERES PLENTY OF EVIDENCE OF IT..

The IND just didnt "come along"..it was a hodge podge of PLANNED BMT ROUTES that the city built with plans of turning them over to the BMT to operate[go ahead and say there no evidence of THAT,too]

During AND after the IND construction,the BMT continued to pusg for it uptown route alongside the IND using a two deck tunnel under CPW..while the IND would have settled for trackage rights,meaning a connecting tunnel between 59th and 72nd[see 1939-49 expansion plans]..

whatever the case may be..having a Bway branch heading uptown on the west side would actually add service..helping the 7th ave route..in the same manor the SAS will drain the over flow from the LEX..AND REDUCE the amount of transferees using the 34th st complex..

(1145446)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by J trainloco on Mon Mar 19 18:54:26 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Edwards! on Mon Mar 19 18:23:36 2012.

Stan Fischler's book on the subway includes a map for subway expansion that, IIRC, dates to around 1940 or so. The map includes, among other things, a line from The broadway/57th station shooting up underneath Central park, then in upper manhattan, running underneath morningside avenue to some point roughly at 125th street.

That said, any attempt to connect Broadway as it presently stands is a nice idea, but ultimately not a wise expenditure of capital dollars. Broadway BMT has since been connected to the 63rd tunnel, which is far more useful than a connection to CPW would be.

There are probably 20 projects that are more worthwhile than this.

(1145459)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Edwards! on Mon Mar 19 20:06:31 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by J trainloco on Mon Mar 19 18:54:26 2012.

i said IT WAS A GOOD IDEA..And apparently they did too..until there was no money..
also..we've seen most if not all of the PUBLICLY ANNOUNCED PLANS[I ve seen some not so public plans],so while your intentions noble..I feel as if you think Im new to this hobby...

Whatever...I know the history...and really didnt need the play by play on what developed..
I mean..really?



(1145460)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Avid Reader on Mon Mar 19 20:10:25 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by J trainloco on Mon Mar 19 18:54:26 2012.

That's interesting, 20 Projects, you say.
I know of a few. the lower portion of the second Avenue line. The Bronx portion of the Second Avenue Line.
the Super express from 63Rd St. to Forest Hills.

Please name, and describe the others you are familiar with, for the sake of stimulating dialogue. I'm interested.

(1145461)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Avid Reader on Mon Mar 19 20:12:55 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Gene B. on Mon Mar 19 18:02:55 2012.

The Nostrand Line, down Flatbush Ave will encounter a water table issue if it remains a subway.

(1145475)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Edwards! on Mon Mar 19 21:55:35 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Mar 19 20:10:25 2012.

I'd name the UTICA AVENUE ROUTE first on that list..or at least an LRT route.

Id like to see a mid brooklyn route to cover the gap in Bedford...but we know this is headed for SBS SERVICE[B44 and B46]..

I'd like to see a new direct route to Jamaica from Downtown

(1145476)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by grand concourse on Mon Mar 19 22:01:41 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Mar 19 20:12:55 2012.

Same problem would occur for if you send it down Nostrand. At least the plus would be FB is fairly wide so the el won't be right next to the 2nd story of the buildings there.

(1145494)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Q Brightliner Harry on Tue Mar 20 00:33:33 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Edwards! on Mon Mar 19 21:55:35 2012.

I'd like to see a 23rd St. line from Javits Center, then river tunnel to connect to the G, and then connect the Franklin S to the G. That would be a new, direct access to Manhattan for Culver/Crosstown and Brighton/Franklin riders.

(1145535)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Avid Reader on Tue Mar 20 10:47:56 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Edwards! on Mon Mar 19 21:55:35 2012.

Which Downtown?
Downtown Brooklyn?
It is called the Atlantic Avenue Branch!

(1145538)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Michael549 on Tue Mar 20 11:28:28 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Edwards! on Mon Mar 19 18:23:36 2012.

From a previous message:

"The IND just didnt "come along"..it was a hodge podge of PLANNED BMT ROUTES that the city built with plans of turning them over to the BMT to operate . . ."

I'd also add a hodge-podge of IRT elevated routes "converted" to IND planned or proposed trackage:

IRT Ninth Avenue Elevated line (moved to Eighth Avenue, including the Polo Grounds)

IRT Sixth Avenue Elevated line (follows the path along West 53rd Street, supporting the Sixth Avenue elevated line while constructing the Sixth Avenue subway line, re-joining the lines further downtown, etc.)

IRT Second Avenue Elevated line (one removing the complete Second Avenue elevated line for the construction that is still yet to replace the whole line, notice how many of the plans for the Second Avenue subway wanted to replace or convert the IRT elevated lines in the Bronx on the #5, and #6 lines, plus the removal of the Third Avenue elevated line, etc.)

Just a point that I wanted to add.

Mike



(1145558)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by randyo on Tue Mar 20 14:18:22 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Edwards! on Mon Mar 19 17:50:10 2012.

While it could happen, it would be highly inefficient since it would require double Xover moves S/O Lex/63 to bring Bway trains to the Qns Blvd track and 6 Av trains up 2 Av. Over the years, the TA has modified services in such a way that as many Xover moves as possible are eliminated starting with the first and probably most well known, the elimination of the West Side IRT Xover moves N/O 96/Bway in 1959.

(1145566)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by randyo on Tue Mar 20 14:26:50 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by grand concourse on Mon Mar 19 22:01:41 2012.

From info I have seen, both the IRT extension down Nostrand and the IND Utica/Stuyvesant subway were to be elevated from approximately Ave M on south. One of the proposals, most likely post unification, called for the Utica subway (or at that point el structure) to turn west along Ave S where Utica and Flatbush Avenues merge cross Marine Pk and connect with the IRT el structure and continue as a 4 track structure down Nostrand Av to Emmons Av in Sheepshead Bay. Some of the plans called for the el structures to be encased in concrete similar to the Rockaway els or the Smith St Line structure. On Nostrand, the IRT would have used one set of tracks and the IND would have used the other similar to the BMT/IRT arrangement at Qnsbro Plaza.

(1145582)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Avid Reader on Tue Mar 20 16:46:37 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by randyo on Tue Mar 20 14:26:50 2012.

Just to keep it current. I would suggest a "JFK Train" type El. for the un-realized plan.

(1145595)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by J trainloco on Tue Mar 20 18:57:34 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Mar 19 20:10:25 2012.

BOff the top of my head:

Offering avenue subway
-Nostrand Avenue subway extension
-link to Staten island (either cross harbor to manhattan or cross narrows to Brooklyn).
-reactivation of the SI north shore branch
-Triboro RX
-Hillside avenue subway extension
-archer ave subway extension
-Horace harding blvd/expwy subway
-concourse eastward extension
-JFK lower manhattan access
-LGA access/east Elmhurst Subway/el
-crosstown 125th subway (as extension of 2nd avenue)

There's a plethora of other ideas out there. Old BMT proposals, IND second system ideas and even 50's and 70's proposals. Lots of them are still good ideas. Connecting the Broadway BMT to CPW is not one of them.

(1145598)

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Connecting the Fulton el to DeKalb (Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by J trainloco on Tue Mar 20 19:17:17 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by randyo on Thu Mar 15 13:39:08 2012.

This, to me, is the biggest problem with the argument for the Ashland Connector. Everyone always says that the Fulton subway was a waste, and it probably was, but expecting the Fulton El to have been added to DeKalb is probably unrealistic. Currently, Fulton @ its peak is running 25 trains through Cranberry. Even if that number were lower, say 18 tph, that would still put 63tph through DeKalb, keeping each S Bk route at 9tph, and removing Nassau service from South Brooklyn. A more likely scenario is the one painted by Gene B that has Cranberry still being built and connected to the Fulton el.

(1145612)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Edwards! on Tue Mar 20 20:54:17 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Avid Reader on Tue Mar 20 10:47:56 2012.

sure is..but its not part of our subway system..yet.

(1145613)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Edwards! on Tue Mar 20 20:58:00 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by J trainloco on Tue Mar 20 18:57:34 2012.

Well thats YOUR opinion..which I see nothing wrong with..
I,however..do believe it could work..

(1145616)

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Re: Connecting the Fulton el to DeKalb (Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Edwards! on Tue Mar 20 21:26:36 2012, in response to Connecting the Fulton el to DeKalb (Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by J trainloco on Tue Mar 20 19:17:17 2012.

I dont believe the Fulton subway was the waste these guys believe it to be..the EL structure was by THAT DAYS STANDARD "rickety" for the most part..and would need rebuilding to carry the newer steel cars of the day.

The Cranberry tunnel would have been built in any case,whether it was connected to the Nassau st subway upper level stub tracks under Broad st..or the BMT's version of the 8th avenue subway...

If the Fulton st subway was completed..it would have had serious usage..Linden Blvd alone would have fed it from Long Island,South Jamaica,St.Albans,Cambria Heights,Springfield Gardens,Rosedale and so on..

(1145621)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by grand concourse on Tue Mar 20 21:47:35 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by J trainloco on Tue Mar 20 18:57:34 2012.

Would the Concourse line extension run under Gun Hill road (connect to both the 2 and 5 lines)?

(1145622)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Edwards! on Tue Mar 20 21:49:34 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by randyo on Tue Mar 20 14:18:22 2012.

true..but you never know what the TA isnt telling the public concerning service.

(1145624)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by J trainloco on Tue Mar 20 21:59:40 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by J trainloco on Tue Mar 20 18:57:34 2012.

Offering avenue subway

I really need to get it together when I use my droid for posting...

(1145634)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Edwards! on Tue Mar 20 23:26:58 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by J trainloco on Tue Mar 20 21:59:40 2012.

LOL...!

It's okay..I saw the error..but there wasnt any need to say anything about it since we knew it wasnt intentional..

(1145646)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Mar 21 01:24:20 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Edwards! on Mon Mar 19 17:50:10 2012.

And also why I would build the 125th Street portion to go all the way across, if underground with a connection to the 8th Avenue line that would provide flexibility in the event of the G.O. and/or for instance a chance to run special SAS trains along such a connection via the Concourse for Yankee games and so forth.

(1145647)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Concourse Express on Wed Mar 21 01:26:37 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by grand concourse on Tue Mar 20 21:47:35 2012.

Gun Hill Rd's a bit too far north IMHO.
While such a connection might be doable, methinks it's better to take the "straight" alignment under Burke Ave and then via Gun Hill Rd (connection to (2) and (5) lines still guaranteed); aftewards, via Bartow to the foot of Co-op City/Bay Plaza (i.e. Baychester Ave).

my blog

(1145656)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 21 02:04:11 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Mar 21 01:24:20 2012.

This "flexibility" claim is bullshit. Why would you spend hundreds of millions of dollars building something that would only be used a few times a year, and only when something goes wrong. That means that optimally (when nothing goes wrong) it would lie permanently dormant.

(1145664)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by randyo on Wed Mar 21 03:23:56 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by J trainloco on Tue Mar 20 18:57:34 2012.

IAWTP! With 4 services operating on CPW, 2 8 Av and 2 6 Av services where would the Bway service fit anyhow?

(1145665)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by randyo on Wed Mar 21 03:26:15 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Edwards! on Tue Mar 20 21:49:34 2012.

From what I have seen of recent service patterns. the MTA wants to have as little as possible to do with double crossover lines.

(1145666)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by randyo on Wed Mar 21 03:28:14 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Avid Reader on Tue Mar 20 16:46:37 2012.

That sounds even better that what was originally planned. Don't forget that at the time the el structures I spoke of were planned, the JFK Airtrain type of structure had not yet been developed.

(1145667)

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Re: Connecting the Fulton el to DeKalb (Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by randyo on Wed Mar 21 03:31:08 2012, in response to Re: Connecting the Fulton el to DeKalb (Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Edwards! on Tue Mar 20 21:26:36 2012.

I agree, but remember that the Fulton St el was to have been rebuilt in its entirety to accommodate steel cars and it was still planned to have some Fulton service operate into Sands St. That would probably have meant that Fulton lcls would have terminated at Sands St and only Fulton expresses would have utilized the Ashland Pl connection into the subway.

(1145670)

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Re: Connecting the Fulton el to DeKalb (Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Edwards! on Wed Mar 21 03:55:52 2012, in response to Re: Connecting the Fulton el to DeKalb (Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by randyo on Wed Mar 21 03:31:08 2012.

Truth...but Sands street wouldn't have lasted long after the connection was built..since the city wanted the tracks over the BB removed.

(1145687)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Avid Reader on Wed Mar 21 09:25:54 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by J trainloco on Tue Mar 20 18:57:34 2012.

The reactivation of the SI North Shore route has merit.

Hillside and Archer Ave extensions would be a benefit.

LGA access is yes, but should be done by the P.A.

None would be as benificial as the connection from the B'way BMT to the CPW IND.

(1145690)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Avid Reader on Wed Mar 21 09:40:55 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Edwards! on Tue Mar 20 20:54:17 2012.

No arguement there.

(1145691)

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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St

Posted by Avid Reader on Wed Mar 21 09:43:57 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by randyo on Wed Mar 21 03:23:56 2012.

Not where , but how?
Slowly and carefully.

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