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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Mar 10 01:19:31 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Fri Mar 9 21:36:42 2012. The connection, if built would be almost straight iron, so I don't think that would present any problems. If the existing BMT line between City Hall and Cortlandt can handle 75 ft cars then an almost straight iron connection should handle them even more easily. Besides, at the rate of MTA construction progress, by the time such a connection would be built, there won;t be any 75 footers left on the property anyhow since it looks at the present time that the MTA is finished with the 75 ft car concept. |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Mar 10 01:22:14 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Mar 9 20:53:29 2012. True, but I would have liked to see a lot of them completed despite the fact that many of them like the Fulton St Line in Bkln caused the demolition of some of some BMT els and probably would have resulted in the demolition of a few more. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Mar 10 01:22:29 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Fri Mar 9 21:36:42 2012. The connection, if built would be almost straight iron, so I don't think that would present any problems. If the existing BMT line between City Hall and Cortlandt can handle 75 ft cars then an almost straight iron connection should handle them even more easily. Besides, at the rate of MTA construction progress, by the time such a connection would be built, there won;t be any 75 footers left on the property anyhow since it looks at the present time that the MTA is finished with the 75 ft car concept. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Sat Mar 10 01:30:30 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by randyo on Sat Mar 10 01:22:14 2012. That is true. iirc was the Fulton El fairly well [structure wise] and could've remained instead of the need to totally demolish it and replacing it with a subway?Rather than just a subway replacing an el that didn't need to be replaced, all that money that could've been spent for other areas that needed a subway more {queens super express, 2nd av, etc].... |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Sat Mar 10 01:32:31 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by randyo on Sat Mar 10 01:22:29 2012. If that's the case, then it's going to be a very boring fleet if the new trains will end up being almost identical to the R143/R160s. I'll miss those 'window side seats'. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Mar 10 01:38:06 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Grand Concourse on Sat Mar 10 01:30:30 2012. The problem with the Fulton St el was that it could not accommodate heavyweight steel cars for its entire length since there were significant portions of the structure that were not upgraded to dual contract specs. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Mar 10 01:39:47 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Grand Concourse on Sat Mar 10 01:32:31 2012. That's probably what it's going to be and even if the MTA had decided to order more 75 ft cars, they would have just been 75 ft long versions of the R-160s anyhow. |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Mar 10 01:40:09 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Grand Concourse on Sat Mar 10 01:30:30 2012. The problem with the Fulton St el was that it could not accommodate heavyweight steel cars for its entire length since there were significant portions of the structure that were not upgraded to dual contract specs. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Sat Mar 10 01:40:13 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by randyo on Sat Mar 10 01:38:06 2012. oic. So it didn't matter in that case then. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Sat Mar 10 01:40:40 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by randyo on Sat Mar 10 01:39:47 2012. True. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Sat Mar 10 10:30:06 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by randyo on Sat Mar 10 01:38:06 2012. How close was the placement of station for the IND Fulton Line, to those of the BMT Fulton Line?Where they station for station, or were they, the IND, placed for optimum operation? |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Mar 10 10:35:12 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Mar 9 20:53:29 2012. yes, and IMHO, NYC is the poorer for not having built out the whole dream. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by qspot on Sat Mar 10 14:58:41 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Fri Mar 9 21:18:43 2012. Sounds like a nightmare... |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Sat Mar 10 17:35:23 2012, in response to The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Thu Mar 8 18:16:59 2012. The best chance for this to have happened, if anyone really wanted to do it, would have been after 9/11 when it could have somehow been lumped in with other money available to rebuild the World Trade Center area. I don't recall any serious discussion of it at the time, so I am inclined to think that it wasn't deemed necessary or even useful. It may create as many problems as it would solve. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by merrick1 on Sat Mar 10 20:18:04 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Andrew Saucci on Sat Mar 10 17:35:23 2012. I think the E would be less reliable if it were coming from Brooklyn. It just would mean more places for something to go wrong along the way. |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Mar 10 20:23:01 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by merrick1 on Sat Mar 10 20:18:04 2012. thats anywhere when you think about it... |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by grand concourse on Sat Mar 10 22:30:31 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by randyo on Fri Mar 9 20:15:19 2012. A split E service (assuming the R is not merging with the E)? |
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Posted by grand concourse on Sat Mar 10 22:35:48 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Mar 10 10:35:12 2012. Yup. They were premature in tearing down both 2nd and 3rd av els before the SAS was built.Imo, if anything, they should've built the SAS 1st instead of 6th av. At least 6th av there was the Path till 14th st. And there were 7th av and Broadway in Midtown that can handle 6th av. Basically, imo, the eastside could've used the SAS more. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by grand concourse on Sat Mar 10 22:38:46 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by merrick1 on Sat Mar 10 20:18:04 2012. Like I said in a different post here: if the E totally replaced the R south of WTC-cortlandt, then you could short turn some E trains at whitehall and maintain the current Queens-Manhattan frequency. The Brooklyn end would just replace the R, which probably doesn't require as many trains per hour. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Mar 11 04:33:25 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by grand concourse on Sat Mar 10 22:35:48 2012. not much argument here |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Mar 11 04:51:22 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Mar 9 20:53:29 2012. It's called biting off more than one can chew. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Mar 11 13:49:18 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Avid Reader on Sat Mar 10 10:30:06 2012. The Fulton Street el and the IND subway had the same stations at: Lafayette Ave, Franklin Ave, Nostrand Ave, Ralph Ave, Rockaway Ave, and Van Siclen Ave. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Mar 11 14:44:17 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Grand Concourse on Sat Mar 10 01:30:30 2012. You are thinking of the late 1930's in terms of 2012. My mother's family used both the Fulton el and the "new" IND Fulton subway. When the Fulton el from Sands Street to Rockaway Ave closed on June 1st, 1940, no one mourned its passing. Unlike the 2nd Ave and the 9th ave els in Manhattan there was no brooklyn counterparts to the Bronx Civic association or other organizations trying to stop the closings and demolitions. The Fulton and the 5th Ave els passed on without too many mourners in Brooklyn! |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Sun Mar 11 15:00:39 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Mar 11 13:49:18 2012. Were there stations for Washington-Clinton, Kingston-Throop, and Utica, but offset somewhat?If so what were their locations? Or not at all? |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun Mar 11 15:40:51 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Mar 11 14:44:17 2012. I guess that makes sense, since at that time it was probably assured that the "shiny new" subway was going to be built or already being built. |
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Posted by Gene B. on Sun Mar 11 16:18:35 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Mar 11 14:44:17 2012. If they weren't intent on putting the BMT out of business, they could have upgraded a greater piece of the Fulton St. el and connected it to the the subway at Ashland Place or elsewhere.Then, the money saved by not duplicating the service with a subway could have gone to part of the second system or the Second Ave, subway. We are all blessed, myself included, with 20-20 hindsight. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Mar 11 17:04:53 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Gene B. on Sun Mar 11 16:18:35 2012. I agree! One of my hindsight fantasies was to have a 4 track Fulton subway, as it is now, between Hoyt and Kingston/Throop. Just east of Throop, have a 2 track ramp diverge from between the express and local tracks. Run it up Chauncey St and connect it from Stuyvesant Ave to the overhead station shell at Utica Ave. Or build a new platform from Chauncy to directly under Utica at Fulton. Either way, run that route down Utica to Ave "U". The other route, east of Utica, I would have had the IND connect to the rebuilt portion of the Fulton St el, via a ramp, like the connection between Church and Ditmas on the "F". But, east of Atlantic ave, on the old portion of the Fulton el, your fantasy is as good as mine! |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Mar 11 17:34:23 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Avid Reader on Sun Mar 11 15:00:39 2012. Go to nycsubway.com and check out the Fulton St el stations on the 1939 BMT map. Compare the stations to those of the IND subway. That's the best way to answer your questions about the subway and el stations. |
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Posted by grand concourse on Mon Mar 12 12:40:07 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Gene B. on Sun Mar 11 16:18:35 2012. Exactly.Agreed. |
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Posted by grand concourse on Mon Mar 12 12:42:28 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Mar 11 17:04:53 2012. That Utica line would've been so useful and help relieve the B46 line. Might also help the B41 in the south too. |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Mar 12 13:29:13 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Gene B. on Sun Mar 11 16:18:35 2012. The Ashland place connection was part of the original dual contract plans had the entire Fulton St structure been upgraded. |
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Posted by Gene B. on Mon Mar 12 17:36:55 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by randyo on Mon Mar 12 13:29:13 2012. Yes, but they would not have had to upgrade west of Ashland Place. |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Mar 12 21:27:16 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Gene B. on Mon Mar 12 17:36:55 2012. True, but there were plans to relocate the Fulton St El off old Fulton St and onto Adams St enroute to Sands St since the subway probably couldn't handle all the Fulton St El service. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Mar 13 01:43:58 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by randyo on Mon Mar 12 21:27:16 2012. Where would the Fulton el/subway run, had it been connected at Ashland Place? Nassau Loop? |
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Posted by Gene B. on Tue Mar 13 13:19:14 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by randyo on Mon Mar 12 21:27:16 2012. Remember, we are looking with 20-20 hindsight. They also had plans for the 2nd Ave subway and for the IRT and IND extensions to Sheepshead Bay, among other things. I think they could have used Ashland Place to connect with the subway for either Nassau St. loop or midtown Manhattan and a stub portion of the el for service into downtown Brooklyn. With our hindsight, we know that downtown Brooklyn lost a lot of retail patrons once the subway made it easy to get to the stores between 8th ST. and 59th St. Manhattan, and Borough Hall had less importance than when it was the City Hall for the City of Brooklyn, even though it still had courts and other governmental branch operations. Oh well. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Mar 13 16:22:53 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Mar 13 01:43:58 2012. More likely it would be sent to midtown Manhattan since Fulton already had access ti the Nassau/Centre St area vis the Bkln Bridge. |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Mar 13 16:33:44 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Mar 9 20:47:41 2012. As Michael noted in such a post here, that is not a block north.That would be where you would likely need to re-open the old South Ferry outer loop station and use that for (5) trains when those are not operating to Brooklyn, (6) trains overnights (in both cases doing it where first the front and then the rear five cars open at South Ferry as opposed to the old way of just the front five on the (1)) and reviving the old BG-SF shuttle at other times. That would be one potential ripple effect of having the (E) replace the (R) along Church Street in lower Manhattan and into Brooklyn. |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Mar 13 18:11:02 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Michael549 on Fri Mar 9 22:25:27 2012. Could a connection not be built between the north end of Whitehall St. station and Bowling Green station? The entrances are on opposite sides of the TA headquarters building at 2 Broadway. That would indirectly connect the (1) South Ferry station with Bowling Green as well.I'm not saying I think there's a need for the E/R track connection. But I have wondered about the plausibility of the BG/Whitehall connection, basically running north on Whitehall St. from Stone St. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Mar 14 19:59:23 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Mar 13 16:33:44 2012. Would puiing #5 trains on the old #1 South Ferry Loop interfere with service on the new leaky #1 South Ferry station? |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Mar 14 20:04:09 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by randyo on Tue Mar 13 16:22:53 2012. Along with Sea beach, West End, and Brighton expresses on Broadway? An Eastern Division line on the Southern Division Broadway subway with 3 other expresses and 2 other locals? |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Mar 15 06:09:00 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Mar 14 19:59:23 2012. No it would not as far as I know.The current (1) station is on a lower level, plus the South Ferry loop station was originally built for the Lexington, NOT 7th Avenue line. As noted, the main thing that would need to be changed from when the (1) ended there is that all 10 cars, using two five-car segments of the front and then the rear five cars would come into the station and open doors (to prevent the old problem of only the first five cars opening and many people not realizing that was the case on the (1)) and there would be a 10-car marker inside the SF tunnel that would be the designated point for such trains to stop at to allow the rear five cars to open. This obviously would NOT be an issue for the BC-SS shuttle (that would service the old SF station when the (5) goes to Brooklyn, but not overnights since the (6) would be running to SF then as I would do it) since that would likely be a two-car train of R62s in a revived version of the shuttle. There would also in a revived old SF station be transfers to the 1/R (N overnights). |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Mar 15 06:43:51 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Mar 9 21:23:46 2012. Yes, but not all people want to even walk the two blocks in question, and especially late at night there are those who would not be comfortable venturing outside the subway for that long a walk.That's why as noted upthread a ripple effect of having the (E) replace the (R) to Brooklyn via the connection noted would be re-opening the old South Ferry outer loop station (with transfers from there to the 1/R) and using that for the (5) when that isn't going to Brooklyn, the (6) overnights (extended from BB) and a revival of the Bowling Green-South Ferry shuttle (as likely a two-car train of R62s).at other times. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Mar 15 13:39:08 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Mar 14 20:04:09 2012. Since there were already 4 Southern Division lines going to midtown, the logical thing to do would have been to take one of them and route into Nassau St and bring Fulton to midtown. Otherwise there would be no Eastern Division service north of the financial district at all. removing one of the Southern Division lines from midtown would still leave remaining Southern Division services with midtown access. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by grand concourse on Sat Mar 17 03:25:05 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Mar 13 16:33:44 2012. My whole point was you can either have the E replace the R or the R run as is with the transfer for flexibility. You can't have both lines running. Which was my response to him if you bothered to look it up.And please no on the 5 to SF and no to the BG shuttle. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Mar 17 06:29:35 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by grand concourse on Sat Mar 17 03:25:05 2012. The 5/6/S to old SF (and revival of the BG-SF shuttle) would be likely a ripple effect of having the (E) replace the (R) to Brooklyn (with the (R) terminating at City Hall) since it would take out a direct ride to SF on the Broadway line to Whitehall (since the (E) would be replacing the (R)). If you keep the (R) as is, then the point is moot and the other stuff is not necessary.That said, the connection should be built because it provides for operational flexibility, which to me is extremely important. In this case, in an G.O. like one we have coming up where the (F) is out between Jay Street and 18th Avenue, the (F) could for instance run via the (N) and (R) and then via the tunnel, moving to the (E) tracks at Chambers and then running normal starting with West 4th. Likewise, if the 6th Avenue side of the Bridge is out, the (B)/(D) could use Montague and a WTC connection to re-connect to the 6th Avenue line after Cortlandt and via 8th Avenue return to its own line at West 4th. This, BTW is also why I would re-build the Brooklyn-bound connection ONLY to the Manny B from the Nassau Street Line. This would in an emergency allow trains operating via 4th Avenue/West End/Sea Beach/Brighton to go via Montauge to the Nassau Line and back to Brooklyn after Chambers via the bridge. It also would allow for a rush-hour Nassau Street loop line (only operating to Manhattan via tunnel and to Brooklyn via the bridge and only stopping on the northbound tracks after and before returning to DeKalb Avenue) that would only have one terminal instead of two. Operational flexibility is something that would be very important to me, and this is a good example of it. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Sat Mar 17 11:30:24 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Mar 17 06:29:35 2012. Lettuce not forget, if this connection were to be made, "E" & "F" service could have the potential to be routed to the BMT BROADWAY Line if the IND's 6Th and 8Th Ave lines were knocked out.I would therefore suggest, that the Local and Express tracks that dead end on the Broadway Line north of B'Way, and 57Th Street be merged, and extended. Yes, extended under Central Park, and west to a point under Central Park West. Here, they'd be two leveled and ramped up under the layup tracks, to rejoin with the 8Th ave mail line. Connections, in the south, and north, for route insurance. Insurance for planned and unplanned G.O.'s |
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Re: Broadway-CPW connection |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sun Mar 18 00:27:12 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Avid Reader on Sat Mar 17 11:30:24 2012. Absolytely on the (E) and (F) being able to in an emergency be re-routed via Broadway. Building the originally-intended connection through Central Park to a meeting point on the CPW line also would provide further flexibility in an emergency. |
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Re: Broadway-CPW connection |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Sun Mar 18 11:04:41 2012, in response to Re: Broadway-CPW connection, posted by Wallyhorse on Sun Mar 18 00:27:12 2012. It is a comfort, and heart warming to see great minds think alike.Fortunately, we don't have to think about the co$t. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sun Mar 18 15:17:48 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by Avid Reader on Sat Mar 17 11:30:24 2012. There are no deadend tracks on the Bway line at 57th. They extend to 63rd and will connect to the 2d Ave. line. |
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Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Mar 18 15:19:04 2012, in response to Re: The Connection Between WTC and Cortlandt St, posted by italianstallion on Sun Mar 18 15:17:48 2012. The local tracks have dead-end trackways. It's still a stupid idea. |
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