Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) (1027802) | |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Teddmann on Wed Jan 26 09:26:41 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Andrew Saucci on Tue Jan 25 20:43:25 2011. >>But none of these people-- not one-- thought to take a camera in there and snap even oneMost likely, you just worked there...this was your job. Ok, a tunnel and part of a station that's not going to be used...it's kinda neat, but they saw a lot of neat things down there. Little did anyone know back then it would become the legend it has. Nothing is compelling me to take any pictures of my office building today. Perhaps it may not exists in 50 years. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Wed Jan 26 10:00:53 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by f179dj on Wed Jan 26 00:00:03 2011. shows that that the third rail extended that far (2+90) at leastAre you sure that chaining number is right? That's about 8 miles south of Euclid: |
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Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Wed Jan 26 10:10:48 2011, in response to Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street, posted by William A. Padron on Tue Jan 25 11:47:24 2011. Yes, I have to slightly correct myself, because I rechecked some of the proposed track diagrams as found in Jeff Erlitz' articles in some of the NYDERA's "Bulletin" newsletter...Any chance of a scan? And you are right, that plans was to have the Fulton Street Line all the way out there to the terminal station in Eastern Queens What stations were planned between Cross Bay and 229th (or wherever it had been cut back to by then)? |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by f179dj on Wed Jan 26 10:16:09 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by GIS Man on Wed Jan 26 08:22:47 2011. Correct, from about CIP eastbound. But us locals don't stand on formality. It is what it is, and whatever we (I) choose to call it at the moment. Call it what one likes. It is a major west-east route on Long Island at this latitute, for lack of a better word which my addled brain can't pull up at this time of the morning (parkways and expreeways excluded). |
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Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Wed Jan 26 10:20:28 2011, in response to Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street, posted by Randyo on Sun Jan 23 15:11:33 2011. Where would it have cut across from Fulton to Liberty? |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by mike cruz on Wed Jan 26 10:29:48 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Teddmann on Mon Jan 24 14:00:09 2011. move #3 up about 1 inch and smooth out the curve on the grant bound yard leads and you pretty much go it. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jan 26 10:32:16 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Andrew Saucci on Tue Jan 25 20:43:25 2011. and who took photos of the upper level of utica ave,south 4th st.& roosvelt ave.? the photos you see of these stations are ALL within the last 10 or so years.the last time I know of when cops were in 76st.was 1978,33 years ago.unless you were a professional photographer with equipment,it wasn`t gonna happen.I tell all the young cops I meet tocarry a throw away camera or cell phone.take photos of you& your friends in the locker room,at roll call,on the streets,etc.this way you will have photo memories.I did 15 years on the job& only have 2 photos of me in uniform,something that I regret to this day.NOBODY going back to those times carried a camera,so that answers your question.that includes T.A.personal. |
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Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jan 26 10:35:10 2011, in response to Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street, posted by Andrew Saucci on Tue Jan 25 20:28:02 2011. no it doesn`t. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Teddmann on Wed Jan 26 10:35:11 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jan 26 10:32:16 2011. Hey tunnelrat...did you know a transit cop that went by the name of "Cap'n Marks"...? I know nothing more than his name (i.e. precinct, etc). |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jan 26 10:36:35 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by GIS Man on Wed Jan 26 08:22:47 2011. you need to update your files. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by arnine on Wed Jan 26 10:40:07 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Teddmann on Wed Jan 26 09:26:41 2011. And equipment back then was not as compact either |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jan 26 10:43:53 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 25 21:48:25 2011. wrong on south 4th,each station& trackway is apx.130 feet,it extends beyound the subway ROW. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jan 26 10:52:21 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jan 25 22:36:20 2011. I know who posted those photos.as soon as I saw them I knew what they were.I let this "ship of fools"sail to its sinking w/o posting a comment.with all the oohs&ahhs not one of you asked ME what I thought of them.I guarentee that I have done more "hardcore"research into 76st.than anyone on this board has,but you didn`t ask my opinion,how come? |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jan 26 10:54:47 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 25 21:54:29 2011. what color is the sky in both of your reality-based community? |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Wed Jan 26 10:58:37 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by f179dj on Wed Jan 26 10:16:09 2011. Should rename the entire thing Middle Country Road... |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jan 26 10:58:44 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Teddmann on Wed Jan 26 08:56:18 2011. me thinks you need to do a WHOLE lot of reading. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Teddmann on Wed Jan 26 11:00:34 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jan 26 10:58:44 2011. >> me thinks you need to do a WHOLE lot of reading.Just show me where to find all of this reading material!! I want to learn more! |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Wed Jan 26 11:00:48 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by mike cruz on Wed Jan 26 10:29:48 2011. You mean the diverge is further from the portal? |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jan 26 11:00:52 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Teddmann on Wed Jan 26 10:35:11 2011. no. |
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Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Wed Jan 26 11:06:43 2011, in response to Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Wed Jan 26 10:10:48 2011. No, I do not have a scan right now of that article from 2005 showing those track diagrams taking from the proposed plans. As for what stations were being planned to be formally built at first as said in the article, it was to have those four-track local stations at 76th Street and 84th Street, the four-track express station at Cross Bay Boulevard and the two-track stub terminal at 105th (or 106th) Street and Rockaway Boulevard. The track provisions were drawn in for the connection to the LIRR Rockaway Line.No mention of any stations that were planned to built as it was going eastward towards Eastern Queens, but here is a link to a map from the 1939 master plan that shows such items as the IND's takeover of the Liberty Avenue elevated, its separate extension along Pitkin Avenue, and what would have the entire conversion of the LIRR Rockaway Line from Rego Park out to the Rockaways for rapid transit operation... 1939 IND Second System Map. -William A. Padron ["Jamaica and Rockaway ->"] |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Teddmann on Wed Jan 26 11:10:19 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jan 26 11:00:52 2011. Ok, I think he worked the Bronx, around 207th St. Was just a shot in the dark. He has a ton of "memorabilia" including some real nice porcelain signs in his garage (I picked up a few roll-signs a number of years ago) |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jan 26 11:24:12 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Teddmann on Wed Jan 26 11:00:34 2011. material is just about non-existent when it comes to this.there is the 1929 ny-times subway article on expansion,stan fischler`s book "the subways"showing the 229st.ext.a small era article&drawing and my own verble history I.E.asking people,going into towers,yards,signal rooms,layup tracks,etc.other people`s accounts of whats down there.and so forth. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Jan 26 13:30:16 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Jan 25 22:28:35 2011. A treasure hunt of sorts.. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 26 13:41:29 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jan 26 10:43:53 2011. It still is obviously not the full length of the potential station so my point stands. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Jan 26 13:42:20 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 25 21:54:29 2011. "PEOPLE LIKE ME" rather "believe in thing that YOU claim don't exist because we're willing to be optimistic,rather than so damned stoic.Hell..if there more like You..we wouldn't HAVE A SUBWAY SYSTEM to begin with!SOMEONE had to "IMAGINE" it FIRST..then gather enough folks with the KNOW HOW TO GET THINGS DONE.. Why are you even posting in the thread,MORRIS? BORED MUCH..or is this your chance to squash someone's dreams? Did you pull the wings off flies..tie firecrackers to the tails of dogs too? |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Jan 26 13:44:27 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Wed Jan 26 08:16:00 2011. Like I told him..it matter very little if you guys don't think something is down there...TUNNELMAN was there.. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Jan 26 13:45:10 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jan 26 10:54:47 2011. they don't have skies...cave ceilings only. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Jan 26 13:49:14 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 25 22:03:42 2011. Why can't he understand that is beyond me. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Jan 26 13:51:32 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Edwards! on Wed Jan 26 13:44:27 2011. TUNNELMAN was there.. No he wasn't. WTF are you babbling on about?? Take Pride,
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Jan 26 13:52:13 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 25 21:54:29 2011. IAWTP. Excellent post. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Jan 26 13:52:31 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Wed Jan 26 08:16:00 2011. IAWYP |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Wed Jan 26 13:59:39 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jan 25 16:52:24 2011. Heh. It will be like the Beach tunnel when the BRT workers broke through it in 1912. When they broke through the cinder block wall to build the Broadway line, they found Beach's old experimental railcar still sitting on the tracks, just where Beach left it in 1873. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Jan 26 14:00:17 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by GIS Man on Wed Jan 26 08:22:47 2011. Yes, as mentioned, on the west side of Cross Island it's Jamaica Ave, and the east side (even the side in Queens now) is Jericho turnpike.Until a couple years ago, the eastbound side was Jericho Turnpike, and the west bound side was Jamaica Ave making for confusion. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 26 14:00:48 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jan 26 10:54:47 2011. Depends on the weather. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Jan 26 14:01:19 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Wed Jan 26 10:58:37 2011. That's what happens when you get to Suffolk. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 26 14:02:55 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Edwards! on Wed Jan 26 13:42:20 2011. Did you pull the wings off flies..tie firecrackers to the tails of dogs too?No, very few people are like you. There's a huge difference between imagining something that you can do, or build and imagining something that DOESN'T EXIST AND NEVER WILL! The only way there will ever have been a 76th Street station is if they build one now or in the future. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Jan 26 14:04:32 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jan 26 10:43:53 2011. Only in so much as the length would not interfere with the existing inastructure. It's still built to be as wide (within some feet) to the existing line they were building. 130 feet is just slightly wider than the actual line it cuts past. An IND station is in excess of 600 feet long. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Jan 26 14:06:12 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Wed Jan 26 08:22:30 2011. Heh, at this point THIS wall is more controversial! |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Jan 26 14:09:12 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Mitch45 on Wed Jan 26 07:19:09 2011. ???The Queens IND was built through basically farmland when it was built. |
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Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street |
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Posted by Randyo on Wed Jan 26 14:11:15 2011, in response to Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Wed Jan 26 10:20:28 2011. Probably the same place where it presently cuts over form Fulton to Pitkin, down Pennsylvania Ave. Instead of continuing down Penna Av to Pitkin, however it would have curved east under Liberty. Under that scenario, instead of the current Liberty Av station, there would probably have been a station under Penna Av a bit north of the current location or else just east of Penna Av under Liberty itself but close to the present Liberty Av station. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Jan 26 14:11:50 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Jan 26 14:09:12 2011. Mitch has no clue. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Jan 26 14:12:00 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Mitch45 on Wed Jan 26 07:19:09 2011. Incorrect. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 26 14:12:59 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Mitch45 on Wed Jan 26 13:59:39 2011. But they knew that the Beach subway was still there, they didn't stumble into it by accident. It may have been popularly forgotten, but it wasn't unknown and surprising. Same thing with the Atlantic Avenue Tunnel. Why should 76th Street be so unique? The station should be called Area 76 (cf. Area 51) because it must have been used for weird military experiments if its so secret. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 26 14:16:38 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Edwards! on Wed Jan 26 13:49:14 2011. Confused again? Chris wasn't disagreeing with me. You're the one who seems to have difficulty understanding (as always). |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Teddmann on Wed Jan 26 14:18:39 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Jan 26 13:51:32 2011. >> No he wasn't....and how would you know for certain whether he was there or not? |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Randyo on Wed Jan 26 14:19:59 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 25 20:30:57 2011. We have a similar situation here in Brooklyn. Somewhere in the 30s going from South Park Slope to Sunset park, the numbering system changes to a similar system to Queens where the first digit (or digits) indicate the previous street or avenue. The only difference being that in Bkln, there is no dash in the address thus a Queens address would be shown as 39-01 but a similar Brooklyn address would be 3901. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Jan 26 14:22:22 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Wed Jan 26 09:10:03 2011. Interesting map ... that'd explain it then. As to the population at the time, many new subway lines built to serve the inner portions were extended out into the middle of nowhere. When I was growing up, Riverdale in the Bronx was largely empty with small residential buildings and a few apartment buildings. That area didn't mushroom until the mid 1950's. Today, it could pass for Manhattan. Long before the IND was built, it was proven that if you built a subway to nowhere, once it was up and running the areas it served would also mushroom with construction.And given where it was headed - to Long Island and the Rockaways, I'm sure they expected some serious traffic on the lines ... |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 26 14:23:35 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Teddmann on Wed Jan 26 14:18:39 2011. If he was, he'd have said so, instead he regales us of stories of his chats with other people who have claimed to see flimsy evidence in support of a station, like a weird nearby basement, or an uncorroborated, vague account of something that looks like a subway station. It's like people who claim that they DEFINITELY saw the Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot, or the Jersey Devil. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by GIS Man on Wed Jan 26 14:32:22 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Randyo on Wed Jan 26 14:19:59 2011. Right. All the "east-west" streets, beginning with 36th St, and the separate eastern part of 35th St., have standard 100's blocks. As to the avenues, it works out as follows:1st Av-7th Av: all jump to 3900 at 39th St and continue at 100 per block. 8th Av: streets catch up with numbers at about 3rd St, then 100 per block. 9th Av: Prospect Park West portion 10 per block from Grand Army Plaza, then 20 per block (or perhaps 12 and 24) to 20th St, then 3900 at 39th St. 10th Av-26th Av: 100's blocks all the way, although 10th and 11th have both 2 and 1502 at Prospect Park Southwest. 12th and 18th Avs are back numbered to Dahill Rd. and Coney Island Av. respectively. Bay Pkwy (22nd Av) back numbered to Ocean Pkwy. 27th Av-28th Av: 1 at Stillwell Av, no 100's blocks. Bob |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Randyo on Wed Jan 26 14:33:13 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Wed Jan 26 08:18:57 2011. Unfortunately, when the Gunn/Kiley administration took over, Gunn's crony Dave Feeley came through all the NYCTA facilities and removed and trashed anything he perceived as out of date and that book along with some railfan valuable timetables from the schedule office ended up in the recycling bin. What the book had was a listing of all the emergency exits on the IND and their street locations. Unfortunately I don't recall the actual dat of the book, but hopefully some command center supervisor or supt who is a buff will have salvaged it and preserved it somewhere. |
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