|
|
| Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems (218850) | |
 |
|
| Home > BusChat | |
[ Post a New Response | Return to the Index ]
[1 2] |
||
|
Page 2 of 2 |
||
|
| (219304) | |
Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by RailBus63 on Wed Jan 5 12:18:47 2011, in response to Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by mcorivervsaf on Sun Jan 2 00:02:08 2011. Jamaica seemed to have the best maintained buses of the Cooper companies, so it's probably not a surprise that they were able to keep their Grummans in service the longest. |
|
|
| (219305) | |
Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Wed Jan 5 12:20:37 2011, in response to Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by RailBus63 on Wed Jan 5 12:18:47 2011. I'm sorry I never got to ride with them. It seemed like they were a good bus company. |
|
|
| (219346) | |
Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by r17-6599 on Wed Jan 5 20:29:21 2011, in response to Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by mcorivervsaf on Tue Jan 4 17:09:10 2011. The hoot after all this was Gunn took up in D.C. where there were zillions of Flx's, which helped bounce out RTS's and Neoplans.Side note: Gunn did say in print in NYC that there are those in the industry that feel the RTS was not such a hot bus. Then the RTSs made headlines with flying off rear wheels, rear doors that opened unexpectedly, and failing air conditioning on the sealed windows. A cute cartoon in the Daily News showed an RTS and a package of new windows with a caption "DO NOT OPEN 'TIL XMAS" alluding to the fact new opening windows were ordered for the RTS buses but they would not arrive until December! A good time was had by all. jrc |
|
|
| (219347) | |
Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by r17-6599 on Wed Jan 5 20:32:58 2011, in response to Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by moviebuses on Tue Jan 4 10:02:25 2011. GM was hurting in RTS sales at that time. A NYC order was a shot in the arm. They lost the big one to Grumman. So odd that there was a large order just waiting for the Grummans to be pulled. If GM was as backed up with RTS orders as they would have liked, NYC's RTSs would have taken MUCH longer to arrive.jrc |
|
|
| (219349) | |
Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by AMoreira81 on Wed Jan 5 20:41:45 2011, in response to Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by WayneJay on Sun Jan 2 00:01:15 2011. Did Command have a 102"-wide bus before 1988? |
|
|
| (219350) | |
Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by New Flyer D40LF 4050 on Wed Jan 5 21:13:24 2011, in response to Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by r17-6599 on Wed Jan 5 20:29:21 2011. I hope you mean "balance" and not bounce because the RTS and Flxibles worked side by side for a number of years. A massive order of Orion Vs did the New Looks, RTS, and older Flxible Metros in about a decade ago. The RTS were about 21 at the time, quite long lived.And true, the RTS did have teething issues. But of course nothing compared to the Grumman fiasco. When you have the whole production line pulled, you have far more than teething issues. I liked the Grummans as well, but face facts, they were lemons. Deal with it. |
|
|
| (219351) | |
Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by New Flyer D40LF 4050 on Wed Jan 5 21:16:45 2011, in response to Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by moviebuses on Tue Jan 4 10:02:25 2011. Wrong. Houston retired 200 Grummans in 1982 at a loss of $5 million dollars. That's why other TAs didn't follow through with dumping the buses. It was better to let them soldier on for a few more years and get SOME value out of them instead of eating the cost. But many Grumman fleets didn't have long lives. |
|
|
| (219352) | |
Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by New Flyer D40LF 4050 on Wed Jan 5 21:23:05 2011, in response to Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by r17-6599 on Wed Jan 5 20:32:58 2011. Where is your proof of this? Or is this a line of thinking you're going along with to further your conspiracy? NYCTA pulled the Grummans in 1984. They had been ordering the RTS buses for three years prior to that.And the RTS was selling relatively well, even the faulty 01 and 03 models. Besides the massive TA order, Houston, Dallas, San Antonio, Miami and LA/So Cal were purchasing the RTS in large numbers. The thing that eventually did the RTS in was the increased amount of non-Flxible competitors using the "low bid" rule to sell cheap and inferior buses like the rotten/rusted Neoplans. Houston Metro hemmed and hawed about having to accept a 1985 Flxible bid and made it clear they wanted GM to fill the order, but rules are rules. RTS buses built for years prior outlasted the Flxibles by two years. |
|
|
| (219353) | |
Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by AMoreira81 on Wed Jan 5 21:31:31 2011, in response to Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by New Flyer D40LF 4050 on Wed Jan 5 21:13:24 2011. The problem is that Rohr was still testing the model when the company was sold to Grumman, but Grumman willfully ignored the data (this was the subject of a 1983 lawsuit). |
|
|
| (219355) | |
Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Jan 5 21:54:03 2011, in response to Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by AMoreira81 on Wed Jan 5 20:41:45 2011. Did Command have a 102"-wide bus before 1988?Ex-NOPSI 5301s. Also irrelevant since 870s came in 96" widths, like those ordered by Avenue B & East Broadway. |
|
|
| (219357) | |
Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Jan 5 22:07:51 2011, in response to Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by New Flyer D40LF 4050 on Wed Jan 5 21:23:05 2011. NYCTA pulled the Grummans in 1984. They had been ordering the RTS buses for three years prior to that.NYCTA first pulled the Grummans in 1981 and replaced them with leased WMATA buses. See the first post in this thread. |
|
|
| (219366) | |
Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by r17-6599 on Thu Jan 6 00:08:54 2011, in response to Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by New Flyer D40LF 4050 on Wed Jan 5 21:23:05 2011. First, my proof as you ask for, was having known insiders within the industry that were able to provide much more information to me than you could possibly imagine. Secondly, I was here, in the city, seeing first hand what was transpiring. Thirdly, reading transit journals, news reports and the like, dealing with other operators, I learned things, much the same way most people do.The fact that, yes the buses were pulled and replaced by the WMATA buses, the RTS replacements were on our streets much faster than normal. I'm not berating the RTS entirely but it also was a bad apple. It was heavier than the buses it was intended to replace, it underwent major design changes, changes already incorporated into the Flx. Yes, Houston had its Flx problems, but Cleveland had its RTS problems, and so did several other systems. I, too, liked both buses, but, face it, even the GM fishbowl was not without its problems early on. And the Flx lived on after RTS production ceased. Deal with it. jrc |
|
|
| (219377) | |
Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by Cornell Park on Thu Jan 6 08:37:36 2011, in response to Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by AMoreira81 on Wed Jan 5 21:31:31 2011. The problem is that Rohr was still testing the model when the company was sold to Grumman, but Grumman willfully ignored the data (this was the subject of a 1983 lawsuit).GRUMMAN ignored? I heard GRUMMAN was told ready for production. From what I understand Rohr ran a demo bus across the country but it was never used in actual service. |
|
|
| (219382) | |
Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by RailBus63 on Thu Jan 6 10:09:49 2011, in response to Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by New Flyer D40LF 4050 on Wed Jan 5 21:23:05 2011. The thing that eventually did the RTS in was the increased amount of non-Flxible competitors using the "low bid" rule to sell cheap and inferior buses like the rotten/rusted Neoplans.What eventually ‘did in’ the RTS and the Flxible was the decision by those manufacturers to put all of their eggs in the ADB basket. Many transit agencies considered both the RTS and the 870/Metro to be overbuilt, over-designed, expensive ‘Cadillacs’ and were not happy that the Feds were pushing the Advanced Design Buses on them. The door was open almost from the start for builders with lower-cost alternatives. Flyer got its foot in the door in the United States selling its proven D800 and D900-series bus and GM-Canada soon followed with its New Look and Classic. Gillig and Orion in particular found a niche in building a basic bus that fulfilled the needs of small and medium-sized transit operators and was less expensive both to purchase and to operate. Also, you shouldn’t harp on the rust problems of early Neoplans without also acknowledging that many transit agencies who bought the early 01 and 03 RTS’s had numerous problems with them. I remember one summer Saturday in 1982 when I visited Providence on a busfanning trip and happily discovered that RIPTA had pulled its entire fleet of 1978 RTS’s off the road for some problem or another and was running only New Look buses that day. |
|
|
| (219402) | |
Grummans in Cincinnati Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by Nabinut on Thu Jan 6 17:11:35 2011, in response to 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by mcorivervsaf on Fri Dec 31 11:29:01 2010. Here is a video shot in Cincinnati back in 2001 with many ex-NYCTA grummans still in service: |
|
|
| (219403) | |
Re: Grummans in Cincinnati Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by Newkirk Images on Thu Jan 6 17:26:44 2011, in response to Grummans in Cincinnati Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by Nabinut on Thu Jan 6 17:11:35 2011. So much for the ex-NYC Grumman 870's being 'junk".Was that an ex-MARTA bus at 2:05 ? Bill Newkirk |
|
|
| (219405) | |
Re: Grummans in Cincinnati Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Jan 6 17:58:43 2011, in response to Re: Grummans in Cincinnati Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by Newkirk Images on Thu Jan 6 17:26:44 2011. Was that an ex-MARTA bus at 2:05 ?That's TANK from across the river in Covington, KY. Those stripes are almost identical to MARTA. |
|
|
| (219406) | |
Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by New Flyer D40LF 4050 on Thu Jan 6 18:18:20 2011, in response to Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by RailBus63 on Thu Jan 6 10:09:49 2011. >>>What eventually ‘did in’ the RTS and the Flxible was the decision by those manufacturers to put all of their eggs in the ADB basket.<<<How so, by focusing on one bus model? That had been the standard practice of GM and Flxible for the past two decades prior to the introduction of the ADBs. Why should it have changed? The ABDs were the future and had innovations that are standard in today's modern buses. It only made sense for them to focus on that model. Bus manufacturing is a money losing operation; why would they introduce several different models? >>>Many transit agencies considered both the RTS and the 870/Metro to be overbuilt, over-designed, expensive ‘Cadillacs’ and were not happy that the Feds were pushing the Advanced Design Buses on them.<<< Proof? The only transit agencies that rebelled en masse were the Canadian transit agencies. All major American cities purchased the ADB buses, in multiple orders, even after "lower cost" competition was introduced. And how were the buses overbuilt? Compared to a GM New Look? By that logic, a New Look was overbuilt and over designed in comparison to an Old Look. >>>Flyer got its foot in the door in the United States selling its proven D800 and D900-series bus and GM-Canada soon followed with its New Look and Classic. Gillig and Orion in particular found a niche in building a basic bus that fulfilled the needs of small and medium-sized transit operators and was less expensive both to purchase and to operate. <<< Flyer, Orion and Gillig were pretty much non-factors until the early to mid 90s. The RTS and Flxible had penetrated all of the Amnerican markets throughout the 80s, from small system to the mammoth systems like NYCTA or LACMTA. The GM Canada and New Looks, while of course a sweet spot for older bus fans, were a blip on the radar. There have been over 20,000 RTS buses built, hardly a rejection of the ADB design. >>>Also, you shouldn’t harp on the rust problems of early Neoplans without also acknowledging that many transit agencies who bought the early 01 and 03 RTS’s had numerous problems with them. I remember one summer Saturday in 1982 when I visited Providence on a busfanning trip and happily discovered that RIPTA had pulled its entire fleet of 1978 RTS’s off the road for some problem or another and was running only New Look buses that day.<<< Neoplans had build issues all through their life span. Wasn't it Baltimore or Boston that had a major issue with a few hundred Neoplans recently? And I did mention the early RTS teething issues. None of those resulted in a massive recall however and a moderate groups= of the inferior 03 model lasted well past the 15-20 year mark. |
|
|
| (219407) | |
Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by New Flyer D40LF 4050 on Thu Jan 6 18:27:04 2011, in response to Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by r17-6599 on Thu Jan 6 00:08:54 2011. You post a number of chronological inaccuracies for someone in the know so to speak.First of all, the RTS arrived "so soon" as you put it because they were 1981 models most likely ordered in 1980. They also weren't "replacements" for the Grummans. They were supposed to operate side by side, hence the reason for Grumman and RTS garage set-ups. Much like the GM/Flx New Look arrangements of the previous decade. Sooooo, GM didn't lose the "big one" as you stated, they were already filling an NYCTA order. The 870s being lemons changed what had been basically a two bus model system (GM and Flx New Looks/RTS and Grummans) to one bus only for 12 years when NYCTA ordered nothing but RTS buses. The RTS did undergo design changes, the most important being removing the slope for a better A/C unit. This happened in 1980. The same year Grummmans were dropping engines and having cracked frames. So what exactly did Flxible pioneer? One more thing, Flxible production ended in 1996, RTS production in 2002. A difference of six years. |
|
|
| (219411) | |
Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by Nabinut on Thu Jan 6 19:57:07 2011, in response to Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by New Flyer D40LF 4050 on Thu Jan 6 18:18:20 2011. Baltimore and Boston has both had issues as well as Pittsburgh. Baltimore sidelined their buses for 2 years to build a brace in the center and Boston had their buses sidelined after a major tunnel accident where the steering was to blame. Pittsburgh I believe sued or was very late in paying for their lot even though they went back and ordered the eventual last buses built by Neoplan USA. |
|
|
| (219448) | |
Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Fri Jan 7 10:58:23 2011, in response to Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by New Flyer D40LF 4050 on Thu Jan 6 18:18:20 2011. IINM, US agencies bought the ADBs because the feds were footing part of the bill. |
|
|
| (219453) | |
Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Fri Jan 7 11:45:41 2011, in response to Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by Nabinut on Thu Jan 6 19:57:07 2011. I think there was an issue with the defrosting system causing fires in Neoplans in the mid or late 80s. SCRTD lost 1984 AN440A 3440 to this. An article about the fire in the L. A. Times stated that another Neoplan (I think at SEPTA?) suffered a similar fate, that one was in service and the geese had to flee, while the RTD bus only had the driver aboard (he escaped unscathed). |
|
|
| (219546) | |
Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by WayneJay on Sat Jan 8 12:00:40 2011, in response to Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Jan 5 21:54:03 2011. Yes, but Command didn't get any of the Grumman 870s. |
|
|
| (219549) | |
Re: Grummans in Cincinnati Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by WayneJay on Sat Jan 8 14:22:13 2011, in response to Re: Grummans in Cincinnati Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by Newkirk Images on Thu Jan 6 17:26:44 2011. Yeah, NYCTA tried their best to say the 870s were junk, and NJTransit benefitted nicely by scooping up 620 of those buses. Not suprised to see those that went to QCM also giving many years of service. The TA was full of it then as they continue to be today. |
|
|
| (304818) | |
Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by Joe on Fri May 1 04:11:30 2015, in response to 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by mcorivervsaf on Fri Dec 31 11:29:01 2010. A bit off topic: Yesterday, as I was in a crowded van headed for the Charleston, S.C., airport, a Metro D Flxible suddenly appeared with a roller sign 2 DOWNTOWN, turning north onto Meeting Street ahead of us. The Canadian Public Transit Discussion Board says it was bought from Golden Gate. |
|
|
| (304823) | |
Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by caine515 on Fri May 1 13:07:39 2015, in response to Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by Joe on Fri May 1 04:11:30 2015. I'm confused. In ny around that time the wmata sent buses to cover routes due to the grummans pulled yet on bustalk I saw a photo of a wmata bus in service with the grummans. How can this be so? |
|
|
| (304824) | |
Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by pragmatist on Fri May 1 13:24:24 2015, in response to Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by caine515 on Fri May 1 13:07:39 2015. Was it a DOT Grumman and not TA? They didn't get pulled. |
|
|
| (304825) | |
Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Fri May 1 14:13:50 2015, in response to Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by pragmatist on Fri May 1 13:24:24 2015. Was it a DOT Grumman and not TA? They didn't get pulled.Nope, TA. There must have been some overlap. 
|
|
|
| (304828) | |
Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by caine515 on Fri May 1 14:28:55 2015, in response to Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by pragmatist on Fri May 1 13:24:24 2015. It was in Staten island. |
|
|
| (304829) | |
Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by caine515 on Fri May 1 14:29:37 2015, in response to Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Fri May 1 14:13:50 2015. Yup that's the pic. I thought all grummans were pulled. |
|
|
| (304833) | |
Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by pragmatist on Fri May 1 16:50:45 2015, in response to Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Fri May 1 14:13:50 2015. Wow, certainly looks like TA. I'm sure one of the resident historians will have the whole story. There are some pretty sharp customers on the site. |
|
|
| (304834) | |
Explanantion - Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by WayneJay on Fri May 1 18:30:49 2015, in response to Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by pragmatist on Fri May 1 13:24:24 2015. I don't remember exact dates, but remember.... NYCTA pulled the Grummans off the streets twice.The first time was after cracks were discovered in several buses, and then the one bus where the engine fell to the ground prompted the TA to immediately ground all of the buses. At the time the TA had taken delivery of 637 buses (of a 837-bus order). The DOT privates hadn't rec'd their Grummans yet. At this time CTA, and SCRTD were other large agencies that grounded their Grumman 870s. I think CTA grounded 205 buses, and RTD 230 buses. All Grumman 870s were sent out to be repaired by Grumman. The repairs were to strengthen the A-frames. Grumman also retrofitted the A-frames on buses that had not been delivered. During this time the TA pulled whatever buses they could out of retirement, and they leased the buses from WMATA. The WMATA buses weren't sent back until the TA had enough Grummans back in service, then they were also receiving the remaining 200 buses of that order. So, yes the WMATA buses were still in NYC as Grumman 870s were going back into service. When the TA pulled the Grummans for good... At this point they had all of them in service plus the 13 that were originally intended for Ave B/E Bway and the demo unit for a total of 851 buses. Since all of these buses were pulled at once. The TA once again had to bring buses out of retirement. They also leased 150 Greyhound MC-8 and used them on Staten Island Express service, obtained a few GMC suburban fishbowls from MSBA (also for SI express service), and they sent 350 GMC fishbowls to Blitz for rebuilding. |
|
|
| (304855) | |
Re: Explanantion - Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Sat May 2 21:22:00 2015, in response to Explanantion - Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by WayneJay on Fri May 1 18:30:49 2015. At this time CTA, and SCRTD were other large agencies that grounded their Grumman 870s. I think CTA grounded 205 buses, and RTD 230 buses.It was RTA (today's Pace), not CTA. |
|
|
| (304881) | |
Re: Explanantion - Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems |
|
|
Posted by WayneJay on Mon May 4 12:15:23 2015, in response to Re: Explanantion - Re: 1981 News Report: Grumman-Flxible 870 Cracked A-Frame Problems, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Sat May 2 21:22:00 2015. It was RTA (today's Pace), not CTA.Ah! Thanks a bunch for the correction. I remember the story like it was yesterday. I was in high school at the time, and I actually NY Daily News clippings somewhere in my Mom's house. |
|
|
[1 2] |
||
|
Page 2 of 2 |
||