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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jan 8 04:45:01 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Jeff H. on Fri Jan 8 04:17:32 2010.

FWIW, one end was a few degrees off from where I remembered it being on 1689 back in 2001 ... I think it was the end facing Short Beach at the time, but the positions were off from what I remember. The other end was OK. The missing detents weren't a surprise tho'. :)

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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jan 8 04:46:40 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by randyo on Fri Jan 8 04:25:35 2010.

I worked the Bronx as well as Brighton. They'd roll. :)

But yeah, largely it was no worry but I was one of those straight and narrow types - MMI told me partial and hold, I did it. Still miss working those cars ... teeyay, not so. Heh.

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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jan 8 05:05:29 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Jeff H. on Fri Jan 8 04:24:45 2010.

I'm sure you've been inside yours more than you want to think about. Heypaul was kind enough to open up his ME-23 and let me poke around inside, and I was amused by the spring-loaded pin and the drilled holes for the detents on the disk on the bottom. His is in excellent condition, you could tell that CIY had recently replaced the disk before the car it came from was scrapped. Nice, solid "click, click, click" on his.

I have no idea of how hard it would be to retrieve that disk, but seemed to be a relatively simple design. On the ones I've seen when RCI's had to open them up to get me rolling, I noted that all of them had a gouge all the way around the disk from the pin and that's why the detents went away on so many of them. But apparently they either had spares or they made replacements for them. Not that I'm suggesting you guys bother with it given the PIA it would probably be to fix, but just wanted to mention my amusement at having seen the innards of the stands years ago ... I have a controller from an R-7 here which is connected up to a machine running BVE and a badly cobbed wooden variation of the ME-23 with a potentiometer on it to serve as a brake stand, thus my interest in all this when I went to build my own "home arnine." :)

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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types

Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Jan 8 08:35:08 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jan 8 04:46:40 2010.

There's always 1689.:)

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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jan 8 16:22:02 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Jan 8 08:35:08 2010.

Also hope to get 825 rolling some day ...

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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types

Posted by Jeff H. on Fri Jan 8 22:12:33 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jan 8 04:45:01 2010.

I've never noticed any difference from one end to the other. Are you
saying that the entire brake stand is rotated in its mounting?

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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types

Posted by Jeff H. on Fri Jan 8 22:16:47 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by randyo on Fri Jan 8 04:32:02 2010.

How would this electropneumatic charge-up have worked in mixed trains?
And were the 1938 cars ME23 or ME30 too? I thought the latter.

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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jan 8 22:23:24 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Jeff H. on Fri Jan 8 22:12:33 2010.

It seemed to be ... it LOOKED OK externally, but the handle positions required a bit more travel than normal, about 10 degrees worth. Ya got used to having the handle parallel to the rails to take an application and I had to go a bit further than that. Noticed the lap position was also a little more "counterclockwise" than I was used to as well. But the other end was OK. Lemme go and see if I can drag up some old pics so I can affirmatively tell you which end it was and I'll get back. But the positioning of the stand itself on the bulkhead was normal, it was the internals that seemed off. If there were any detents it would have been a lot easier to confirm ... I thought I was going nuts at first, not that THAT would be news. :)

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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jan 8 22:39:06 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jan 8 22:23:24 2010.

OK ... my pics don't have the decal on the cab, but it's the end with the extinguisher. At the time, it had the Heinz ad on the passenger side of the bulkhead if that helps ... I'm guessing the #2 end.

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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types

Posted by Jeff H. on Sat Jan 9 00:28:04 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jan 8 22:23:24 2010.

I doubt the "internals" can be off. The rotary valve slot and
the boss on the end of the stem are a very close tolerance, and
they don't wear appreciably.

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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jan 9 01:24:56 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Jeff H. on Sat Jan 9 00:28:04 2010.

I'm sure you're right, which is why I was surprised. Like I said, got told many years ago when I was running arnines that they had been cannibalizing Lo-V's for parts to keep them going since they were destined for the scrap yard. By the time I got there, they were pretty much used for rush hour service only and so they weren't all that picky about what it took to get them out in revenue. So it's *possible* that one of the stands is actually from a Lo-V ... no biggie, just found it to curious when I got to run 1689 that day we met. I'd encountered that before back in 1971 so again, no surprise ...

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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types

Posted by randyo on Sat Jan 9 05:12:03 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Jeff H. on Fri Jan 8 22:16:47 2010.

In mixed trains an ME-30 brake valve would probably not work and, as designed, would probably not be used anyhow which is why the IRT's ME-30s had the charging wire disabled. The 1938 or World's Fair cars as well as the later R-1/9 IND cars had the ME-23 brake valve thus there was no problem at all.

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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types

Posted by randyo on Sat Jan 9 05:14:58 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jan 9 01:24:56 2010.

In 1969 when I was a M/M the detents were so badly worn on the R-9s that I didn't even pay attention to them and just relied on the feel of the train itself and the air gauge to determine the braking effort.

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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types

Posted by randyo on Sat Jan 9 05:15:20 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Jeff H. on Fri Jan 8 22:16:47 2010.

In mixed trains an ME-30 brake valve would probably not work and, as designed, would probably not be used anyhow which is why the IRT's ME-30s had the charging wire disabled. The 1938 or World's Fair cars as well as the later R-1/9 IND cars had the ME-23 brake valve thus there was no problem at all.

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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jan 9 15:52:34 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by randyo on Sat Jan 9 05:14:58 2010.

Heh. We all did. Had to listen for the little puffs of air, that's how I used the force. :)

But remarkably, every now and then I'd get a cab that was clickity-click-click and it was NICE. I could run with my eyes closed! Heh.

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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types

Posted by Jeff H. on Sat Jan 9 22:05:13 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by randyo on Sat Jan 9 05:12:03 2010.

Randy,

I'm looking at the WABCO instruction pamphlet dated 1929 describing
the AMUE system with ME30 brake valve as applied to the IRT.
The cut of the ME-30 shows the same standard 4 fingers (battery,
apply, release, emergency) as an ME-23. There is no indication
anywhere in the manual about this "charging" feature.

The primary difference in the drawings between the ME23 and ME30
is pneumatic: The ME23 had vestigal ports for brake cylinder exhaust
which was a feature never used with AMUE, but something that might
have been active when using the valve as an M23, e.g. several
interurban properties.

The other pneumatic difference is that the ME30 has a separate port
for a feed valve control pipe. This is used in conjunction with the
type "L" feed valve to monitor the actual pressure being delivered
into the brake pipe, rather than just the delivery pressure leaving
the feed valve.

I would tend to believe that this "electric charging" feature is
a misunderstanding.

Interestingly, on the D types, there is an extra finger in the ME23,
but it is used to ground a specific trainline wire in emergency
which in turn enables reset of the E/P trainline emergency wire.
The effect of this is to require the m/m to place the handle in
emergency to acknowledge a trip application before being able to
reset it. The same contact was also used on the group boxes to
bypass the Potential Relay function and allow the motors to be
"plugged" by having the reversers throw and the group run up to
parallel

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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types

Posted by randyo on Sun Jan 10 05:45:44 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Jeff H. on Sat Jan 9 22:05:13 2010.

I would imagine that you may have access to more accurate info than Bruce had and the data about the resetting of the trip cocks on the D types would also apply to the ABs since that is how we were broken in. I unfortunately, don't have access to Bruce's info regarding the ME-30 variation of the AMUE system so I can't testify as to the veracity of his info.

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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types

Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 23 14:59:23 2012, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Joe V on Fri Jan 1 09:26:18 2010.

The only problem would have been the B section since on the Cs, they were built from older trailers from, I believe the 100 series.

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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types

Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 23 15:02:27 2012, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Fulton Frank on Thu Dec 31 15:39:44 2009.

From what I have heard, when the Cs were brand new they operated on the Jamaica and Bway Bkln lines as far as Chambers St so they did operate briefly in the subway for a short distance.

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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types

Posted by Gene B. on Fri Mar 23 16:09:07 2012, in response to Photos: BMT "C" Types, posted by BMTLines on Wed Dec 30 20:05:06 2009.


Fourth photo looks like the "Q"s that ran on the Flushing and Astoria lines from the World's Fair in 1939 until the 1949 consolidation of lines at Queensboro Plaza.

Great stuff!!! Thanks.

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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types

Posted by Dave on Fri Mar 23 17:45:12 2012, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by randyo on Fri Mar 23 15:02:27 2012.

According to Ed Davis, Sr. in "They Moved the Millions," the C's were assigned to the Fulton Street line.

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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types

Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 23 18:20:58 2012, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Dave on Fri Mar 23 17:45:12 2012.

For most of their service life, they were assigned to the Fulton St Line with a few assigned to the Culver Shuttle that ran between Kings Hwy and Stl prior to 1954, but the late trainmaster George Abere mentioned that he remembers seeing them on the Jamaica Line when they were first rebuilt.

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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types

Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 23 18:22:24 2012, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Gene B. on Fri Mar 23 16:09:07 2012.

The Qs were a later rebuild of most of the same el cars that were used for the Cs but with much improved aesthetics including door pockets.

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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types

Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 24 16:23:19 2012, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by randyo on Fri Mar 23 18:20:58 2012.

The first 2 sets, 1500 and 1501, with the oddball doors, were tested on the old (B'way-B'klyn) Canarsie line in Jan-Feb, 1922. They had subway style headlights on these 2 units because the ran over the Willy B to Canal street. A while back, someone had an old photo of them being tested on the the Broadway el, but, at the time we could not figure out where it was taken.

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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types

Posted by randyo on Sat Mar 24 20:20:00 2012, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 24 16:23:19 2012.

All the C types had the subway style running lights which were similar in design to those on the D types. For some reason, when the Qs were rebuilt from gate cars for the 1939 World's Fair, they only had red taillights installed and operated without any sort of white running lights or seal beam headlights in Queens and on the 3 Av El and even in their early years on Myrtle. Although the Composites got single Manhattan type roof mounted headlights when they were assigned to the 2 and 3 Av els, the B of T chose not to install them on the Qs probably because they would normally run predominantly during daylight hours since they were used for rush hour only expresses even though during wintertime it would be dark. By the time I started with the TA in 1966, the Qs had seal beam headlights installed along side the taillights on all units except for one end of 1621 which was the first Q unit to receive them and had them installed just below the roof overhang. Unlike other TA equipment, the Qs could operate without the seal beams during daylight hours and usually did so. At night the M/M could turn a snap switch in the cab illuminating the seal beams when the overhead control key was energized.

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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types

Posted by randyo on Sat Mar 24 20:20:23 2012, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 24 16:23:19 2012.

All the C types had the subway style running lights which were similar in design to those on the D types. For some reason, when the Qs were rebuilt from gate cars for the 1939 World's Fair, they only had red taillights installed and operated without any sort of white running lights or seal beam headlights in Queens and on the 3 Av El and even in their early years on Myrtle. Although the Composites got single Manhattan type roof mounted headlights when they were assigned to the 2 and 3 Av els, the B of T chose not to install them on the Qs probably because they would normally run predominantly during daylight hours since they were used for rush hour only expresses even though during wintertime it would be dark. By the time I started with the TA in 1966, the Qs had seal beam headlights installed along side the taillights on all units except for one end of 1621 which was the first Q unit to receive them and had them installed just below the roof overhang. Unlike other TA equipment, the Qs could operate without the seal beams during daylight hours and usually did so. At night the M/M could turn a snap switch in the cab illuminating the seal beams when the overhead control key was energized.

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