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| (881624) | |
Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Jan 3 15:59:51 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Jan 1 00:43:07 2010. They don't build 'em like they used to, that's for sure. Back then, a BMT standard could take out a row of I-beams and come away with nothing more than scrapes, bruises, minor dents and a broken light bulb. We saw what happened to those R-62s in the Union Square wreck. |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Sun Jan 3 16:33:51 2010, in response to Photos: BMT "C" Types, posted by BMTLines on Wed Dec 30 20:05:06 2009. Beautiful! Thanks for sharing.I'm wondering...since MTA is getting 5 car train sets nowadays, is there a reason why they aren't considering the articulated railcar route again? It could possibly help with the overcrowding. When are those new Toronto articulated cars coming in, anyway? |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Sun Jan 3 17:15:41 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Jeff H. on Fri Jan 1 18:43:54 2010. I operated the el type controller at BERA and if I'm not mistaken you were the pilot Jeff.Also, if I remember correctly when I used to ride up front with the engineer on the Hempstead Line the old MP-54's had the same type controllers.
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Jan 3 17:32:16 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by randyo on Sun Jan 3 15:50:55 2010. Unca Ed is a remarkable guy ... not only could he maintain speed, but could also lap his brake AND his pipe at the same time. He's still going strong out in Montana ... |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by BMTLines on Sun Jan 3 18:09:31 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by The Flxible Neofan on Sun Jan 3 16:33:51 2010. The C-Types prove that you don't even need true articulation in order to have passageways between cars. Since the MTA orders 5-car sets anyway what is their reason for not doing it particularly since they have now invoked this unreasonable rule against changing cars. |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Jan 3 21:12:51 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Jeff Rosen on Sun Jan 3 17:15:41 2010. The older LIRR cars had that type of controller as did the PRR MP-54s, the New Haven washboards and the all the NJT and SEPTA cars until the Silverliner Vs. |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Sun Jan 3 23:38:07 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Jan 3 15:59:51 2010. It still remains to be seen how ANY of the new-tech vehicles fare in a major impact. The only hint heretofore is that provided by R143 #8277. The carbody shell withstood the impact without hardly a scratch, but the underframe and car floor were significantly "bent out of shape". It's STILL back at the factory, with the body doctors hard at work trying to make a rectangle out of it.-wayne- |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Mon Jan 4 06:14:49 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by randyo on Sun Jan 3 21:12:51 2010. Very close to it, except the LIRR cars were a WH #12 controller,and the BUs were a #8. IIRC the difference is that the LIRR cars did not have the square shaft sticking out. The controller handle had the square protrusion on it and was inserted into a square hole on the controller. |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Jan 4 07:51:39 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Jan 3 17:32:16 2010. He loved running the R-1/9s as much as you did. |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Jan 4 07:55:52 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Sun Jan 3 23:38:07 2010. They must have hired the Three Stooges."Don't you worry, madam. You won't recognize this car when we're through with it. All right men, get to work." |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Jan 4 08:08:37 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by BMTLines on Sun Jan 3 18:09:31 2010. Lawsuit abuse. Some people will do anything to make a fast buck. |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Mon Jan 4 11:32:36 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Jeff H. on Mon Jan 4 06:14:49 2010. The mp54`s had a left handed controller and a large right handed brake handle. |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Mon Jan 4 11:33:48 2010, in response to Photos: BMT "C" Types, posted by BMTLines on Wed Dec 30 20:05:06 2009. Awesome collection!! The good ol' days!! :-) |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by bmtlines on Mon Jan 4 11:54:39 2010, in response to Photos: BMT "C" Types, posted by BMTLines on Wed Dec 30 20:05:06 2009. Thank you to all who liked this. Although I no longer feel the incentive to run a dedicated rail site like the former BMT-Lines.com, I will continue to occasionally share any rare and interesting images I might acquire. |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Mon Jan 4 11:57:11 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by bmtlines on Mon Jan 4 11:54:39 2010. Please do continue to do so!! It's good stuff!!Though, a devoted site is always nice!! :-) |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jan 4 13:36:22 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Jeff H. on Mon Jan 4 06:14:49 2010. Since the original controllers could conceivably be operated by a pair of pliers or a wrench, it was incumbent on the WH people to develop a controller that could only be operated by the appropriate device. The 1911 edition of the Electric Railway Dictionary, which is basically an illustrated catalog of the then state of the art electric railway products, shows a WH controller almost identical to the BU type but with the updated internal shaft. |
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| (881993) | |
Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jan 4 13:37:35 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Jan 4 08:08:37 2010. If the passageway is completely enclosed like the C types or the Bart equipment, there would be less than no grounds for lawsuit abuse. |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Mon Jan 4 14:12:43 2010, in response to Photos: BMT "C" Types, posted by BMTLines on Wed Dec 30 20:05:06 2009. It would be nice if there was a GHB train set of the C class madeavailable now that would be nice a true classic. Karl M |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Jan 4 15:01:58 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by BMTLines on Wed Dec 30 21:48:26 2009. I am skeptical of that date.- look carefully at the service map posted in the car in the secon photo- it shows IND service (Concourse & Qns Blvd lines). I don't think that info would appear in BMT corporate photos or BMT-owned fleets.Despite my respect BMT Lines's subject knowledge, I'd say that at least the secon photo must be post-unification. The first photo shows a shiny "new" car, so that one could have been a BMT publicity shot. |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Jan 4 15:04:15 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by MainR3664 on Mon Jan 4 15:01:58 2010. Yet another look at the photo tells me I may have been wrong...what I thought was the Concourse looks more like Astoria, and "Qns Blvd" might be 14th St-Canarsie...one "time out" for me! |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by Ed Alfonsin on Mon Jan 4 15:19:16 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by MainR3664 on Mon Jan 4 15:04:15 2010. That's a standard BMT map from the 1930s. If the picture could be enlarged, you could verify that. The BMT had no reason to show anythingtoo far north of their lines. The earlier version in the 1920s didn't have 8th Avenue or the connection from Broad Street to the Montague Street Tunnel. "8th Avenue" on the later maps is in slightly smaller type compared with "6th Avenue." Ed Alfonsin Potsdam, New York |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jan 4 16:44:39 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Jan 4 07:51:39 2010. They always were something special to run compared to the other stuff. But Ed's favorite toy of all was the BMT Steels. He'd walk a mile to climb up in one of those. Never could figure out why he had such a thing for them. He also loved his Q cars and lamented the demise of the MUDC's. :) |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Jan 5 08:08:42 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jan 4 16:44:39 2010. I've been curious as to how the brake valve on the standards felt in terms of lapping as compared to the R-1/9s.I personally didn't care much for the BMT standards when they were still around mainly because they didn't have signs up front and I was used to seeing them on newer equipment. |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Jan 5 08:09:39 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 4 13:37:35 2010. Exactly. |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by Ian Lennon on Tue Jan 5 12:07:55 2010, in response to Photos: BMT "C" Types, posted by BMTLines on Wed Dec 30 20:05:06 2009. I just noticed that the first, and last picture are operating with a covered third rail. The fourth pic is uncovered third rail, and the truck has a different shoe setup. Does anyone know the details on the change, and when it happened? |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jan 5 15:00:26 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Jan 5 08:08:42 2010. I didn't really feel much of a difference at all. |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jan 5 15:18:33 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Ian Lennon on Tue Jan 5 12:07:55 2010. The first and last photos are in CIY which had mostly covered 3rd rail by the time it fully opened in the mid 1930s since it serviced mostly subway equipment. By that time, the only Southern Div elevated line which was not merely an extension of a subway line was the 5 Av El which also served the Culver Line jointly with steel trains from the 4 Av subway. The other photo appears to be in ENY Yd which like all the Eastern Division yards had open 3rd rail since the Eastern Division had more exclusively elevated lines and only 2 lines that were connected to a subway. Since it was intended at some point to completely rebuild the entire Fulton St el to support subway equipment, the C types were equipped with subway type contact shoes which also enabled them to be used on open portions of the Southern Division where they served on both the Culver and West End shuttles in the early 1950s. Subway type shoes could, and did, operate on both types of 3rd rail and the shot of the Cs in ENY Yd shows them in the slightly higher elevated position. In the 1960s, the Qs had their elevated type shoes replaced by subway shoes allowing the portion of the Myrtle Av el between Bway and Met to be equipped with subway type 3rd rail. |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jan 5 19:04:25 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Jan 5 08:08:42 2010. Never had the "pleasure" myself, they were gone from revenue by the time I came in. Can't imagine them being much different from any of the other triple-valve pipes as randyo indicated. Reversed stands though ... (shudders) ... :) |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by Ian Lennon on Tue Jan 5 20:18:36 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by randyo on Tue Jan 5 15:18:33 2010. Thank you. |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Jan 6 08:44:46 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by randyo on Tue Jan 5 15:00:26 2010. Their sounds were different, though. The R-1/9s had their, "tch-ssssss" magnet valve sound (as did the Triplexes, I believe) while the BMT standards went, "tchhhhhh" as they came to a full stop. |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Jan 6 13:35:59 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Jan 6 08:44:46 2010. True, but that no bearing on the actual operation of the train itself. By the way, one morning as I was leaving Essex St after working a midnight GO, A KK train came into Essex St and one of the cars had a releasing sound like a BMT steel rather than an R-9. It was probably a replacement that was laying around ENY shop and some car maintainer used it. |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Wed Jan 6 20:04:22 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by randyo on Wed Jan 6 13:35:59 2010. By the way, one morning as I was leaving Essex St after working a midnight GO, A KK train came into Essex St and one of the cars had a releasing sound like a BMT steel rather than an R-9. It was probably a replacement that was laying around ENY shop and some car maintainer used it.Part could have come from a Low-V, they also made the same sound as the Standards. Bill Newkirk |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Wed Jan 6 23:01:56 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Jan 6 08:44:46 2010. That's because the R1-9 and D types used an A1A or A1 (respectively)variable load unit. Inside of that unit is a relay valve. The UE5 does not directly control brake cylinder pressure, but instead charges and discharges a dummy brake cylinder known as the Volume Reservoir. The variable load unit then acts as a proportional relay valve to establish a brake cylinder pressure proportional to the volume reservoir pressure and to the car load weight. The release sound of an R-9 is in 3 parts: 1) A short spurt of air released from the bottom of the exhaust valve filling piece. This is the exhaust/cutoff valve moving from the electric to the pneumatic position. 2) A sustained blow of air from the same port. This is the pneumatic release of the volume reservoir air. 3) A louder sustained blow from the variable load unit. This is the self-lapping portion of the variable load valve releasing the actual brake cylinder air. D-types are almost identical. IRT Lo-V cars never had variable load equipment. Therefore the 3rd part of the above sound is missing. BMT steels had a much earlier version of variable load. Instead of using a proportional relay valve, it used a convoluted piece with seven internal chambers that would be connected to the auxiliary reservoir volume in various combinations so that volume is added proportional to the load weight. Increasing the AR volume means lowering the equalization point between BC and AR pressures. A separate feed valve-like mechanism was used to limit emergency cylinder pressure. |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jan 7 03:24:50 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Newkirk Images on Wed Jan 6 20:04:22 2010. True, but since the R-9s were being maintained at ENY Yd where the steels were maintained, the likelihood of a Lo-V part being used on an R-9 was extremely slim especially since the Lo-Vs were long gone from passenger service by that time and any remaining Lo-V parts would have been in the Bronx IRT yds or possibly at 207 St where the BMT R-9s were not maintained by that time anyhow. |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Jan 7 03:31:32 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by randyo on Thu Jan 7 03:24:50 2010. Curious thing though, it's remotely possible that if the transplants were done, they could have been done at CIY. I've run some R1/9's where the ME-23 brake stand *clearly* came out of LoV's. How can I tell? The positions were off by about 10 degrees from where they should have been. Branford's 1689 is one such car as well. Apparently the mount point on the bulkhead was a slightly different angle between the two car classes and I was told by cars and shops that some LoV stands had been rescued and rebuilt to keep the arnines running.So anything's possible ... :) |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Jan 7 08:08:57 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Jan 7 03:31:32 2010. You mean to say 1689 may have a Lo-V brake stand? Interesting. |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jan 7 13:45:54 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Jan 7 03:31:32 2010. If the brake positions are off, the in all likelihood, the brake valve is probably an ME-30. The 5600 series Lo-Vs and Steinways as well as the 4200 and 4500 series Steinways which were converted from Hi-V trailers had Me-30s due to a shortage of ME-23s at the time the IRT purchased the parts. The only difference between an ME-23 and an ME-30 is that the ME-30 had an additional contact (not connected on the Lo-Vs) in the electric portion that allowed for the brake pipe to be electro pneumatically charged instead of just pneumatically charged as is the case with the ME-23. SIRT cars also had Me-30s. There was a slight difference in the mounting bolt of the ME-30 which accounted for the slight difference in the position locations of the two types of brake valves and which would occasionally cause a train to go BIE since the emergency finger on the ME-30 brake valve would make contact if the M/M brought the brake valve back to what would be the service position on an ME-23. |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Jan 7 16:04:25 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Jan 7 08:08:57 2010. If you recall, I was complaining about the positions being off in the one end? Uh-huh. :) |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Jan 7 16:14:41 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by randyo on Thu Jan 7 13:45:54 2010. As best as I recall, all of the detents were off by the same amount as if the regular stand had been rotated slightly as a whole. I think the head itself also seemed to be rotated slightly from normal as though it were mounted off its normal position. I noted that on 1689 as well. That might explain it though, other than the positions being off, it looked just like any other ME-23 ... |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jan 7 17:19:09 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Jan 7 16:14:41 2010. All the detents would be off by the same amount. To anyone unfamiliar with the 2 types of brake valves, they are identical in appearance the only difference being those I mentioned. Another difference in mounting is between the ME-42B and ME-43 brake valves. Their positions are also slightly off from each other but since the detents on those brake valves are more pronounced that those on the ME-23 and ME-30, there is virtually no likelihood for error like the older brake valves. |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jan 7 17:19:59 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Jan 7 16:14:41 2010. All the detents would be off by the same amount. To anyone unfamiliar with the 2 types of brake valves, they are identical in appearance the only difference being those I mentioned. Another difference in mounting is between the ME-42B and ME-43 brake valves. Their positions are also slightly off from each other but since the detents on those brake valves are more pronounced that those on the ME-23 and ME-30, there is virtually no likelihood for error like the older brake valves. |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Jan 7 17:55:35 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by randyo on Thu Jan 7 17:19:09 2010. On the older valves, it was amusing how many of them had the detents on the bottom disk so worn out that there were no detents at all. 1689 was also one of those. "Wing it or fling it" was a way of life the folks on the rails these days will probably never get to know like we did. :) |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Jan 7 20:57:27 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Jan 7 16:04:25 2010. I'll take your word for it.:) |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Jan 7 20:59:18 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by randyo on Wed Jan 6 13:35:59 2010. Did that "tchhhhhh" sound have anything to do with moving the brake valve to full release? IIRC on the R-1/9s, you have to do a full release just before stopping in order to avoid a sudden lurch to a stop as though the train hit a brick wall. |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Jan 7 21:01:24 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Jan 7 20:59:18 2010. Actually, a partial release and electric hold. |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Fri Jan 8 04:17:32 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Jan 7 03:31:32 2010. The positions aren't off. The detents are worn so the notchesfor each position aren't felt. |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Jan 8 04:20:49 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Jeff H. on Fri Jan 8 04:17:32 2010. Well that's the same situation whether we;re talking about an ME-23 or an ME-30. I found that the detents on most of the ME-23 brake valves I operated which included Lo-vs, R-9s and steels were so badly worn that for all practical purposes they didn't exist at all. |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Fri Jan 8 04:24:45 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by randyo on Fri Jan 8 04:20:49 2010. Whereas valves with an external quadrant, like the M19, neverlost their "feel". Incidentally, what do you mean about an extra contact that charges the train electropneumatically? I have all of the WABCo instruction books on IRT and Philly cars using the ME-30 and there is no mention of this feature. |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Jan 8 04:25:35 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Jan 7 21:01:24 2010. Back when I was a M/M you could leave it in full release on a final stop and the train would not roll unless it was on a REALLY steep grade like 145 St upper level. |
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Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Jan 8 04:32:02 2010, in response to Re: Photos: BMT ''C'' Types, posted by Jeff H. on Fri Jan 8 04:24:45 2010. I never saw it anywhere in hard copy either but retired NYCTA Supt Bruce Lane claimed that was the case. Other than that, I see no reason for the existence of an ME-30 brake valve especially since the IRT World's Fair cars and the later R-9s still had ME-23s. |
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