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| Re: Tunnel stubs (751780) | |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Mar 6 15:50:11 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by randyo on Thu Mar 5 17:02:25 2009. Those "bellmouths" however were not intended to go to Staten Island.Indeed, it's all too shallow to ramp down under the Narrows (or up over the bridge). At one point in the construction of the extension of the original 4 Av subway from 86 to 95 st, It was planned to construct a small underground storage yard S/O 95 St since storage has been a chronic problem for the 4 Av Line since its construction. I have heard that those trackways actually extend a few blocks past the tunnel wall but since they continue straight rather than follow under 4 Av, they would be under private property and difficult to trace. Perhaps it would be possible to use this provision to extend onto an El over the Belt Parkway (stations, say, 16th Av, 19th Av, 24th Av, Bay 41st St, Cropsey Av, Stillwell Av - Coney Island (D)(F)(N)(Q)). This would allow the R to use Coney Island Yard and kill some express beese at the same time. |
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| (753085) | |
Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Fri Mar 6 16:08:43 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Wed Mar 4 14:20:41 2009. One more .... after the Brighton Line merges with the 4th Avenue subway Manhattan bound after Myrtle Ave, there is a bellmouth for a never-built loop subway that would have allowed BMT trains to return to Brooklyn w/o crossing the Manny B into Manhattan.I am not sure if this provision can be seen coming off the Manny B heading into Brooklyn. I recall this from a NYD ERA "The Bulletin" from the early 60s. --Mark |
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| (753088) | |
Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by bigrene22 on Fri Mar 6 16:15:20 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Fri Mar 6 16:08:43 2009. Isn't there a bellmouth next to the northbound track of the BMT Brighton (B&Q) Line between Atlantic Avenue & DeKalb Avenue? |
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| (753103) | |
Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Fri Mar 6 17:40:50 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by MattW@15st_prospect_park on Fri Mar 6 14:50:12 2009. At the token booth there should be a blue print of the entire station including South 4th Street. |
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| (753117) | |
Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by MattW@15st_prospect_park on Fri Mar 6 18:24:21 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by daDouce Man on Fri Mar 6 17:40:50 2009. I think thats the one I saw, the other person who saw it with me, he had no idea what was what. Also it was not up to date with the current lay out of the station which suppriesed me. |
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| (753171) | |
Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Mar 6 20:19:36 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by bigrene22 on Thu Mar 5 10:28:03 2009. I refer to the R as the Ralph when it runs in Manhattan and Brooklyn and as the Ricky when it enters Queens. |
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| (753175) | |
Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Mar 6 20:21:12 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Mar 5 20:47:46 2009. The Worth St. stub is between Canal and Chambers Sts. No biggie. |
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| (753199) | |
Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Fri Mar 6 20:47:02 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by MattW@15st_prospect_park on Fri Mar 6 18:24:21 2009. I once saw the blueprint for 21/Van Alst on thr G line.It had a few odds and ends I had only guessed about. |
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| (753203) | |
Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by MattW@15st_prospect_park on Fri Mar 6 20:56:28 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by daDouce Man on Fri Mar 6 20:47:02 2009. I heard that there is an old mezz. there that is sealed up an flooded. Is there any truth to that? |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Fri Mar 6 21:20:02 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by MattW@15st_prospect_park on Fri Mar 6 20:56:28 2009. There was a lower mezzazine listed because the G line is diving to go under Newtown Creek. If it's flooded or sealed off, I don't know. Just that most of the station is closed off from the public. And I wasn't about to go looking around. The area seemed to be very spooky. |
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| (753311) | |
Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by mr_brian on Fri Mar 6 23:33:28 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by MattW@15st_prospect_park on Fri Mar 6 20:56:28 2009. I know it's definitely sealed up, for sure. Three staircases were removed (you can tell where they were by looking at the platform and the ceiling) and there used to be stairs at the southern end of the platform, but now there is a storage room at the end. |
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| (753315) | |
Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by MattW@15st_prospect_park on Fri Mar 6 23:57:39 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by mr_brian on Fri Mar 6 23:33:28 2009. I knew the S/A who worked Broadway for a while, I brought South 4th to his attention. When I saw the station diagram, the only way into the north end of the mezz. we could figure was through a Station Dept. room that he had no access to. I don't know whats back there aside from a fan plant, a crew room, a com. room, and something else. |
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| (753324) | |
Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Sat Mar 7 00:57:01 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by bigrene22 on Fri Mar 6 15:34:00 2009. This: |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Sat Mar 7 02:37:20 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by MattW@15st_prospect_park on Fri Mar 6 23:57:39 2009. The one time I walked all the way back there there was C/TA room, employees toilet, a stairway to the former P/T booth and a wide stairway to what I'd assumed was the passageway to the Station Shell.That was back in 1989. Access to the station shell likely was blocked since then. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by MattW@15st_prospect_park on Sat Mar 7 03:55:23 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by daDouce Man on Sat Mar 7 02:37:20 2009. Acces is not blocked from the plat form, but the mezz. is nolonger how you described. It's not even half its original length, maybe a 20th of that. Next time I am there I'll get a picture, but there are 2 stair ways to the platform and a wall after the furthest one from the booth. Behind that is a crew room and employee toilet. That was the only room I was in and it had no access to the rest of the mezz. |
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| (753399) | |
Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by bigrene22 on Sat Mar 7 08:07:37 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by G1Ravage on Sat Mar 7 00:57:01 2009. Where is it? |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by bigrene22 on Sat Mar 7 08:38:01 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by bigrene22 on Sat Mar 7 08:07:37 2009. Isn't there a bellmouth for a propsed Brooklyn Bridge connection near the Metro Ave/Jamaica Center-Bound track just north of the Chambers Street station on the BMT Nassau Street (J/Z & M) Line? |
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| (753414) | |
Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by metropod on Sat Mar 7 10:24:54 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by bigrene22 on Sat Mar 7 08:38:01 2009. No, it's not a bellmouth. it'a more like a balconey, |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by bigrene22 on Sat Mar 7 10:30:04 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by metropod on Sat Mar 7 10:24:54 2009. What does it look like? |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by metropod on Sat Mar 7 10:50:23 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by bigrene22 on Sat Mar 7 10:30:04 2009. a balconey. |
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| (753428) | |
Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by bigrene22 on Sat Mar 7 11:02:43 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by metropod on Sat Mar 7 10:50:23 2009. I have no idea. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by metropod on Sat Mar 7 11:07:32 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by bigrene22 on Sat Mar 7 11:02:43 2009. a veranda, a terriceit's a hole in the roof |
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| (753468) | |
Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Sat Mar 7 12:45:01 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by bigrene22 on Sat Mar 7 08:38:01 2009. The connection to the Brooklyn Bridge would have been SOUTH of Chambers St. NORTH of Chambers St there was supposed to have been a turn-off to a station to what would have been under 1 Police Plaza. |
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| (753534) | |
Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Mar 7 16:51:02 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by daDouce Man on Sat Mar 7 12:45:01 2009. Actually, under original BMT terminology, the physically south end of Chambers St was railroad NORTH since all trains having to pass through Brooklyn enroute to Manhattan regardless of point of origin were considered NORTHBOUND. The only reason for the change was the through routing of Eastern Division trains into the Southern Division. Stl bound QJ trains were considered southbound for their entire route to eliminate confusion but when the M trains replaced QJs into the Southern Division, the TA made Ms S/B towards Stl but never bothered to change the J designation back. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Sat Mar 7 16:58:27 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by bigrene22 on Fri Mar 6 14:51:29 2009. A bit too interested... any particular reason why you want to know? |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by metropod on Sat Mar 7 17:31:34 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Grand Concourse on Sat Mar 7 16:58:27 2009. I was thinking the same thing. I have a feeling we might now have a smarter version of chipper. |
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| (753546) | |
Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Sat Mar 7 17:38:41 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by metropod on Sat Mar 7 17:31:34 2009. I always get suspicious of ppl wanting to know a bit 'too much'.I mean inside info is fine, but this is getting to be a bit too much. |
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| (753561) | |
Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by metropod on Sat Mar 7 18:31:23 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Grand Concourse on Sat Mar 7 17:38:41 2009. amen |
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| (753664) | |
Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Mar 8 01:01:55 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Grand Concourse on Sat Mar 7 17:38:41 2009. Sorry..but I felt that way since the OP first asked.Most if not ALL of the questions he asked could be answered on DAVE'S SITE... It was OVER THE TOP when it began... |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Mar 8 01:15:13 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by bigrene22 on Fri Mar 6 14:51:29 2009. Why don't you go to the very sorce for the info you need...?Write the MTA a fine letter detailing your desire to KNOW EVERY SINGLE BELLMOUTH/TAIL TRACK in the subway system...and please let us know your results swiftly.... Perhaps..Homeland won't even bother you... |
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| (754181) | |
Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by bigrene22 on Mon Mar 9 09:57:09 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Grand Concourse on Sat Mar 7 17:38:41 2009. I just wanna know, geez man.... |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by bigrene22 on Mon Mar 9 09:57:56 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Edwards! on Sun Mar 8 01:01:55 2009. So? Who cares. I got my answers anyways. |
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| (754183) | |
Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by bigrene22 on Mon Mar 9 09:57:59 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Edwards! on Sun Mar 8 01:01:55 2009. So? Who cares. I got my info anyways. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Mon Mar 9 10:02:10 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by bigrene22 on Mon Mar 9 09:57:56 2009. Be careful with your answers.Alot of times it leads to more questions! Heh! |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by bigrene22 on Mon Mar 9 10:23:29 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by daDouce Man on Mon Mar 9 10:02:10 2009. Ok. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Mar 10 17:51:11 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by MattW@15st_prospect_park on Fri Mar 6 14:28:22 2009. The Utica Av upper looks similar to S 4 St but as you mentioned it is smaller because it is only 4 tracks wide rather than 6. What is interseting is that even though the Utica/Stutvesant subway crosses Fulton at a slight angle, the suppoer columns for the station roof line up exactly with the lower level station rather than the upper. There is a door in the south middle mezzanine which when open, leads onto what would be the N/B trackbed of the proposed subway and although I didn't check for it myself, I would imagine that there is a corresponding door on the North mezzanine as well. While I am on the subject, why would the upper level station at Broadway have been called S 4 St since the line is under that street? Wouldn't it be more likely to have been called Union Av since that us the street that the G line operates under? |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Mar 10 17:53:54 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by MattW@15st_prospect_park on Fri Mar 6 14:39:39 2009. The empty trackway is part of the proposed worth St subway which would have met the 2 middle tracks from 2 Av and gone to S 4 St. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Mar 10 18:07:55 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by metropod on Sat Mar 7 10:24:54 2009. Correct. That "balcony" was to have carried Centre St trains coming from Bway Bkln over the Bkln Bridge. As originally planned, the present J2 and J4 tracks would have gone over the Bkln Br. The present J1 and J3 tks (Which when the line first opened might very well have retained the "H" designations since trains coming off the H tracks of the Manny B originally terminated there) were to have continued under the Bkln Br tracks to the Nassau St Line. By the time the Nassau St extension was built plans to operate via the Bkln Br were dropped and the BMT was actually looking towards getting its trains off the Bkln Br entirely thus the present track layout S/O Chambers St was constructed. before Nassau St was built, J4 tk rose at the asme grade as J2 to the south (railroad north) end of Chambers St in anticipation of the Bkln Br connection. When the new configuration was developed, the grade of J4 was changed to bring it under the 2 outside tracks going to Nassau St and connect it to the new relay track that was built as part of the project. |
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| (754902) | |
Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Mar 10 18:14:27 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Mar 6 15:50:11 2009. The problem is that since there are express buses serving the area, the MTA is not about to spend money it doesn't have just to make in a little more convenient for passengers it does have. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Mar 10 18:18:29 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by bigrene22 on Fri Mar 6 16:15:20 2009. Yes. I believe there is also one on the S/B side as well. These were for the proposed Ashland Place connection which would have brought a fully reconstructed Fulton St El into the subway and enabled its removal from the Bkln Br. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Tue Mar 10 18:37:01 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by randyo on Tue Mar 10 18:07:55 2009. I thought the tracks going across the Brooklyn Bridge started SOUTH of Chambers Street. |
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| (755080) | |
Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Mar 11 04:26:18 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by MattW@15st_prospect_park on Fri Mar 6 14:39:39 2009. I think I know where that is. It's toward the north end of the station, adjacent to the lower mezzanine, which is reachable by the stairs. The lower mezzanine has a door, which, if you peek through, you might just be able to see a trackway. That lower mezzanine is where the Worth St. subway would have gone, and the door faces the direction of the proposed tracks. The picture from ltvsquad site looks like it's a huge space - how big was it? I thought it only went as far as the station below.As for the stairs at the end of the platform, it would have to lead to a room right under the Madison St. token booth. There does seem to be enough space between the mezzanine and platform for such a room. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Mar 11 04:36:08 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by bigrene22 on Sat Mar 7 08:38:01 2009. If you ride a Broad Street-bound J or M train from Chambers Street and look out the left side of the train, you'll notice the wall seems to ramp up for no reason. That may be what's left of the proposed connection to the Brooklyn Bridge. It's easy to see - only a couple of seconds outside the station. |
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Re: Tunnel portal and el stub at 149th St |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Mar 11 04:53:38 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel portal and el stub at 149th St, posted by Mellow One on Wed Mar 4 15:02:28 2009. Thanks for the pics and descriptions! I have to ask though, why was the Bergen Street cutoff built if the 150th St. connector already existed? Was traffic to the 3rd Ave. El that heavy? |
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| (755084) | |
Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Mar 11 05:28:37 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Wed Mar 4 14:20:41 2009. A very slight provision on the Chambers Street-bound curve between Bowery & Canal on the Nassau Street line; I forget what this was forIf I remember the original plans correctly, it was a provision in case they wanted to extend along Delancey. The joint in the wall is fairly slight - doesn't look like a bellmouth. Same thing when going north from Chambers on the J - it's hard to discern much besides empty space. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Mar 11 05:37:35 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by daDouce Man on Thu Mar 5 05:44:24 2009. If I understand this correctly, it's the space just before the 6th and 8th Ave. local tracks meet. I thought it was interesting too, but since there is nothing analogous on the downtown side, I thought it was just a structural oddity. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Mar 11 05:46:35 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Michael Wares on Wed Mar 4 22:22:36 2009. Actually, the NY Times did a pictorial about the tunnel segments, and how they were finally being removed as part of the Ground Zero reconstruction. |
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| (755140) | |
Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by bigrene22 on Wed Mar 11 11:28:12 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by 3-9 on Wed Mar 11 04:36:08 2009. Wow, I've never noticed that... |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Mar 11 14:58:51 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by daDouce Man on Tue Mar 10 18:37:01 2009. Before Chrystie St, the physical south end of the station was considered railroad NORTH since all trains entering manhattan which passed through Brooklyn regardless of point of origin were considered NORTHBOUND. Ive posted the explanation for this on this forum many times. |
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Re: Tunnel portal and el stub at 149th St |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Mar 11 15:06:24 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel portal and el stub at 149th St, posted by 3-9 on Wed Mar 11 04:53:38 2009. Actually, the original el service to Freeman St was 2nd Av not 3rd. 3 Av service only went to Freeman St after the 2 Av el service to the Bronx ceased in 1940. The problem with the 150 St connector was that since it was only expresses that went to Freeman St, a crossing at grade interfered with local trains lvg 149 St. The Bergen AVENUE (not Street) cutoff provided a direct connection from the express tracks of the el to the Westchester Av structure without interfering with local service. The 150 St connector was retained in the event there was a blockage on the Bergen Av cutoff so th old trackage could still be used. |
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