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| Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection (683809) | |
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| (683816) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Sat Sep 20 18:55:55 2008, in response to Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Andy on Sat Sep 20 18:37:00 2008. I thought the reason for the discontinuance of the shuttle was because of the closing of the Putnam Division. |
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| (683831) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Mysterious Friday 1986 on Sat Sep 20 19:19:21 2008, in response to Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Andy on Sat Sep 20 18:37:00 2008. Y'know, I read somewhere that sometime after the shuttle was going to be discontinued, there was a plan where the 3 line would've used that portion of the 9th Avenue line and head to the Bronx. From what I read, the Lenox Avenue trains would've exited through a portal past 145th Street, then get onto the swing bridge, use the Sedgwick tunnel and on over the Jerome Line. And the reason this wasn't done was because the tunnels weren't tall or wide enough to support IRT equipment, and it would've cost the TA a fortune to modify those tunnels. |
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| (683855) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Sep 20 19:37:49 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Jeff Rosen on Sat Sep 20 18:55:55 2008. That also happened in 1958, as I recall, into the Bronx. |
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| (683907) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by SLRT on Sat Sep 20 21:06:39 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Jeff Rosen on Sat Sep 20 18:55:55 2008. You are right. The closing of the Put was the proximate cause of the closing of the shuttle. |
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| (683910) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by SLRT on Sat Sep 20 21:08:47 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Mysterious Friday 1986 on Sat Sep 20 19:19:21 2008. Not likely, since the shuttle used IRT equipment.There were a lot of rumors going around back then, but that's a new one on me. |
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| (683927) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Sep 20 21:41:17 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Mysterious Friday 1986 on Sat Sep 20 19:19:21 2008. I heard a similar story. But, according to the one I was told, the plan dated back to 1940, when the city closed the 9th Ave. el. However, the tunnels were not wide enough for subway type 3rd rail. It was either widen the tunnels ot cut the 3rd rail shoes back on the IRT subway cars, so they wouldn't scrape the side walls. Ridership decline was another factor. The origional 3 car shuttles were cut back to 2 car trains in 1941. I don't know when the shuttle was reduced to its single northbound track- does anyone know? . Also, the area was served by the 155th Street IND. It was sad to see the old bridge go because it was the last steam powered swing bridge in NYC. |
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| (684121) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Sun Sep 21 02:08:03 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Sep 20 21:41:17 2008. That doesn't make any sense. The tunnel was built during thedual contracts era. It wasn't part of any previous railroad and it didn't date from the elevated era. Why wouldn't it be able to clear IRT subway equipment? |
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| (684179) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by The I Man on Sun Sep 21 09:17:56 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Jeff Rosen on Sat Sep 20 18:55:55 2008. And because the Giants moved to San Francisco. |
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| (684246) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Sep 21 12:12:42 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Jeff H. on Sun Sep 21 02:08:03 2008. The tunnel was originally part of the Putnam Division, which once terminated at 155th St. in Manhattan. It was not built by the IRT. |
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| (684247) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Sep 21 12:15:25 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by The I Man on Sun Sep 21 09:17:56 2008. The shuttle remained open through most of the summer of 1958, after the Giants left. The reason it closed when it did was the abandonment of Putnam line passanger service, it's sole remaining reason for existence. |
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| (684254) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by poobaa on Sun Sep 21 13:07:37 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Sep 21 12:12:42 2008. This is not true. The Put ended at Sedgwick ave. but built the swing bridge to connect to the 9th El. IRT built the tunnel to connect with the Jerome ave IRT. There is a good story about this on the web but I do not have the link |
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| (684263) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by poobaa on Sun Sep 21 13:40:04 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by poobaa on Sun Sep 21 13:07:37 2008. Sedgwick Ave Passenger service: July 1918 - August 1958. Existing abandoned portions: part of 2 platforms on abandoned trackways. Touring: The nearest stop is 161 St on the 4 B D trains. To see what remains, go up Ogden Ave from Jerome Ave, turn into 161 St, and walk onto the footbridge over Sedgwick Ave and the Major Deegan Expressway. The outdoor portion of the platforms is visible in the bushes, and the location of the portal, hidden under the highway, is marked by an old stone wall on the land side of Sedgwick Ave. construction and operation Numerous routes are called "elevated subways"; this is part of an "underground el". As part of the Dual System planned in 1913, the Interborough Rapid Transit (IRT) company built an extension of the joint 6 Ave and 9 Ave els from 155 St and 8 Ave Manhattan, to join the City's Jerome Ave route. 155 St had long been a joint terminal of the Manhattan Railway's elevated lines and the predecessors of the New York Central's Putnam Division. The extension routed the el over the railroad's Putnam Bridge, and the railroad was cut back to a new terminal on the Bronx side called Sedgwick Ave, where there had not been a station before. From here the el was pointed directly at a spur of rock. The IRT blasted a tunnel for three blocks to the other side, and then continued the line by elevated to meet the City's Jerome Ave line at 162 St, which is over River Ave at that point. The el extension was opened in July 1918. At first el trains provided the main service to the Jerome Ave line, but subway trains (called the 4 train years later) became the main service by the mid 1920's. Joint operation of subway and el trains lasted till 1940, when the City took over the IRT routes and eliminated several els including the 9 Ave El. The closing of the 9 Ave El was not however the end of service through the tunnel. A remnant of the 9 Ave El continued to run, a shuttle from 155 St to 167 St. Sedgwick Ave was the only transit connection to the New York Central's Putnam Division terminal, and 155 St was busy when there were baseball and football games at the Polo Grounds at 155 St. The shuttle hung on until 1958, when the Putnam Division closed and the baseball Giants had already moved out west. When the shuttle was closed, the steel elevated structure was removed, along with Putnam Bridge, but the ground level portions and tunnel remained. Sedgwick Ave station was mostly at ground level with concrete platforms on each side of the two tracks. The west end was a wood platform on a steel structure passing over the New York Central's Hudson Division. The east end was in tunnel for about a car length. Thus it was just barely an underground station. The remaining part today are the platforms at ground level and into the tunnel. See also the page for the Jerome Ave station at the other end of this short tunnel. |
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| (684313) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sun Sep 21 16:01:59 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Sep 20 21:41:17 2008. So essentially what you are saying is that the 9th Avenue El cars used a "subway type third rail" when it rode on the Jerome Avenue line, and a "non-subway type third rail" when it ran on the 9th Avenue EL as well as the Polo Grounds Shuttle (which was originally a part of the 9th and 6th Avenue El lines).Do I have that right? Mike |
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| (684350) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Sep 21 18:01:48 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by poobaa on Sun Sep 21 13:40:04 2008. Correction noted. |
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| (684353) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by aem7ac on Sun Sep 21 18:05:18 2008, in response to Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Andy on Sat Sep 20 18:37:00 2008. i thought that the old stadium is getting preserved |
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| (684355) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by poobaa on Sun Sep 21 18:06:29 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Michael549 on Sun Sep 21 16:01:59 2008. NO NO When the put used the bridge it used steam locos across the bridge to 155th terminal connecting to 6th/9th el trains. IRT trains were standard sub rolling stock running from 155th street to 167th street IRT. |
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| (684401) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Sep 21 19:58:34 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Mysterious Friday 1986 on Sat Sep 20 19:19:21 2008. Hello ALL INCORRECT... The tunnel COULD clear IRT wooden Elevated Cars (and El car HIGHER roof heights for which it was designed for) as well as clear ALL steel IRT subway cars. IRT EL Gates, EL MUDC's and EL Composite cars - and later IRT Steel Hi-V Deck Roof, Gibbs and early Hedley body Steinways. It could also clear later SMEE type IRT cars. Problem was that Sedgwick-Anderson Tunnel under E. 162nd Street, Bronx, was designed to clear ONLY the early IRT "EL" style 3rd rails...which was higher than, and closer to, the track, than later "subway style" and position (lower, and a bit further than the track and covered 3rd rail. The EL Cars (Gates, MUDC's and Composite Cars) all used Elevated style "DROP SLED" sprung hanging shoes that rode completely OVER the Third rail, and did not protrude beyond its back edge or EL style 3rd rail backside safety wooden back-boards. A small fleet of IRT steel subway High-V's, were by early 1950 and later by 1954, Steinways, "assigned" specifically only to the POLO shuttle. That,in early 1950, because the few Composites servicing that POLO line (and also majority in mainly 3rd Ave EL express services) were scrapped. And their Composite motor trucks put under ALL the ex-BMT Q types removed late Oct.1949 from Queens BMT Shuttle trainsets then servicing Flushing Astoria IRT EL routes, for ervice tranfer use to the Manhattan & Bronx 3rd Ave EL express only service.(4-1950 thru 5-12-1955) BECAUSE the (and ALL) subway cars had subway "paddle" style third rail which contacted the covered, and further way, subway stytle 3rd rail, the steel cars assigned to POLO had their paddle shoes cut back short, so that the inner part of the shoe beam plate contacted the old EL style 3rd rail head width and did NOT protrude past the back outer edge of the 3rd rail head. This way they not only cleared the back wooden protector board (which faced the catwalk side of the EL tracks - AND TUNNEL WALLS...), but also cleared the tunnel wall ALSO. The EL style 3rd rail, for wooden IRT EL TRAIN use, located on the Jerome Ave. EL (up to Woodlawn Terminal and shops, yards)...was located on ONE side of each of the 3 tracks there, and subway style and position covered 3rd rail was located on the opposite side of each track ! BUT, because Jermome Mainline trains (the all Low-V trainsets) - had full length subway paddle shoes, which would NOT clear the EL style "joint" 3rd rail's "wooden backboard protector" (that board was 1 1/2' higher than the top head of El style 3rd rail) , the wooden backboard was NEVER ever installed on that EL type 3rd rail on that joint service line trackage. The wooden "safety backboard" "BEGAN" on top levels of the twin down ramps connection tracks EL 3rd Rail, to and from the Jerome line, continuing thru E.162nd street EL and THRU THE TUNNEL, and clear down the entire 9th Avenue EL. The later POLO "Shuttle" retained it from E.155th street Manhattan terminal to top of the Jerome ramps til the end (August 1958) Small Signs on the Jerome line warned "EL" 3rd Rail ONLY" at the ramp interlocking. I walked on that Shuttle line trackage from Jerome ramps (bottom of them) and thru the tunnel to the Harlem Bridge (which was left in open position after closing of the shuttle) -and also walked the Manhattan portion terminal tracks...and took many on-track level B&W photos, in late August 1958 - after the POLO line was abandoned! The four Manhattan EL Lines and the Bronx portion of the 3rd Ave. EL ALL had the safety wooden "catwalk facing" backboard. The Bronx 3rd Ave. El "shuttle" remnant after Thurs. 5-12-1955 (date Manhattan portion service closed afer 7PM below E. 148th Street, Bronx, to Chatham Sq.) retained it with IRT Q-Type and MUDC El trainset LOCAL only operation services, until early December 1956....whereupon BOTH local tracks had the wooden safety backboard removed from ALL the old EL style 3rd rails. This permitted IRT Hedley body STEINWAY 6-car all motor trainsets to replace the wood El Q & MUDC cars, and yet retain their full length subway-type 3rd Rail paddle shoes on that El style 3rd rail, temporarily, ....starting Dec. 15, 1956. The out of "revenue" service Express track still retained the El style 3rd rail wooden backboard until late 1958...because (a) It was used to dead-store the wooden EL car Q Types (and some MUDC's) until the Q's were gradually removed over a 9 month period to CI Shops for overhaul to go to BMT MNyrtle Ave EL service per April 1958 (and IRT MUDC's were ALL scrapped) -- and -- (b) MUDC EL Car hauled work trains temporarily used the center track thru 1958 in overhauling the line and also removing EL style 3rd rail from BOTH Local tracks and "temporarily" re-installing covered subway style and positioned 3rd rail; Removing unneeded surplus express track signals, and removing ALL the old EL style 3rd rail from the express track in graduated section between Tremont and 152nd Sts. Interlocking, replacing it with covered 3rd rail for layups...and post 1958 "ongoing renovations" temporary steel subway work trains, as well as from 200th st. Station to Gun Hill Road for revenue off peak layups. THAT subway 3rd rail was later removed from center tracks along with ALL interlocking switch tracks to center track, BELOW E. 200th St Station, to E.152nd St., by 1962, finally totally abandoning the center track, and effecting its partial "piecemeal" fragmented removal thru the following few years thru 1969. Well, that covers 3rd rails and GETTING BACK to the POLO shutlle as to WHY that thru connection planned from E. 148th & Lennox could NOT be effected to connect with the Jerome EL Line...THRU the E.162nd St Tunnel. IRT Mainline trains all with full length paddles shoes would NOT have cleared the E.162nd St. tunnel, period ! regards - Joe |
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| (684418) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Sep 21 20:14:50 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Jeff H. on Sun Sep 21 02:08:03 2008. Because the connection used only elevated type third rail, which was higher and closer to the running rails. Apparently, whoever built those tunnels did not think of a possible future use by subway cars. It had been built for use by the leased Manhattan Railways' 6th and 9th Ave. els- not for the IRT subway, which had its own underground portal, south of 161 St. Subway type third rail could have been put in later, but, unless the tunnels were somehow widened, it would have been placed right up against the walls. Subway 3rd rail is farther away than el rail. Am I right? The subway shoes would have scraped the wall, unless the protruding parts of the contact shoes, extending past the 3rd rail, were cut off. So, unless you modified the subway contact shoes, or widened the portals, no subway connection was possible.The Jerome el, north of the connection, used dual subway/elevated 3rd rail. I also heard that the center track through the 161st Street had dual rail for el car storage. |
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| (684432) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Sep 21 20:19:49 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Sep 21 19:58:34 2008. Thanks, Joe! |
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| (684485) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Sep 21 20:59:19 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by poobaa on Sun Sep 21 18:06:29 2008. You're both wrong. As was mentioned in another post, the IRT on portions shared by elevated and subway equipment used 2 contact rails, one for subway equipment and the other for el cars. Subway shoes rode over the el third rail and made contact with the subway third rail. What I don't understand is why the IRT unlike the BMT did not design a subway shoe that could make contact with both types of third rail. The BMT shoes were designed so that they had a second contact point that could pick up current from the closer and higher el type third rail as well as the lower and farther away subway type third rail. Thus on portions of BMT els that operated both subway and elevated equipment, only el type third rail needed to be used since the BMT subway shoes were capable of using both types of third rail. |
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| (684490) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Sep 21 21:04:37 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by randyo on Sun Sep 21 20:59:19 2008. When the MNR/CDOT M8s debut, we should see what progress they've made in designing a third rail shoe system that function effectively both in AMTK/LIRR territory and in MNR territory. |
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| (684495) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by poobaa on Sun Sep 21 21:13:19 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Sep 21 21:04:37 2008. TELL US MORE. Will LIRR and MNR both share track in GCT |
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| (684500) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Sun Sep 21 21:18:48 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by poobaa on Sun Sep 21 21:13:19 2008. I think LIRR and MNRR will both go to Grand Central.But not share trackage. |
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| (684503) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by poobaa on Sun Sep 21 21:21:08 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by daDouce Man on Sun Sep 21 21:18:48 2008. Even if they both use new M8? |
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| (684512) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Sun Sep 21 21:33:09 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by poobaa on Sun Sep 21 21:21:08 2008. IIRC from another thread a long time ago,The LIRR and MNRR have 2 different kinds of 3rd rail shoes. One over the 3rd rail. The other under it. |
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| (684520) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Sep 21 21:40:48 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Jeff H. on Sun Sep 21 02:08:03 2008. Hello Jeff H The TUNNEL was built BY the IRT for The Manhattan Raiway "Division" Elevated Equipment trainsets ONLY and as such built to CLEAR the higher IRT EL Car roofs. (You know of that height dfference from BERA Museum stock) The 9th Avenue El's E. 155th Street Manhattan "then northern terminal" station was overbuilt lattice track supports with Steel tubular El columns which could support the heavier Putnam Steam locos and trains - which were a bit more substantial than Forney EL Steam Locos and lighteweight El trailer gate car coaches. The portions of the 9th Avenue El Below 150th street, and even more specifically, below 105th street, was built to much lighter "lattice" structural (1876-1880) standards similar to the East Side 3rd Avenue EL. Therefore, the E.162nd street tunnel was never designed in 1917-18 for any steel IRT (NOR earlier wood-steel Composite fleet with their pre-1915 era original motor trucks) "subway class" Hi-V, Low-V, Steinway or later) cars to pass thru it in revenue service....as they could NOT clear the very strict "revenue loads" weight restrictions on the 9th Avenue El BELOW 150th street. IN FACT, Composites were never even used on the 6th Ave. (only a 2 track EL) Nor the 9th (3 tracks) Avenue Els' in any revenue express (nor NEVER allowed LOCAL) services. Composites when sent to the Manhattan EL's in approx.1915 for the new center track express only AM & PM center track ONLY REVENUE services, were relegated SOLELY to the 2nd and 3rd Avenue east side EL's. And never used in express (nor ANY revenue) service to Flushing or Astoria EL's (BOTH then IRT "route properties" until late October 1949) via E. 59th St-Queensboro Bridge. IRT 6th and 9th Avenue EL's used SOLELY EL Gate car trainsets, and post 1923, additionally, MUDC Converted EL Car trainsets, for BOTH local and express services....up and thru to the IRT Jerome Avenue EL...to June 1940. So the E.162nd TUNNEL was bored to the strict and very close EL Car "3rd Rail"clearance tolerances. And to further prevent much heavier steel IRT subway cars into Manhattan 9th Avenue EL in revenue service ever. Any rare, if ever, (an option if needed) subway cars dead headed thru there to reach repairs at E.155th street ELEVATED yards and shops, were TOWED thru that tunnel MINUS their 3rd rail paddle shoes and beams, via EL Motor cars and a J (earlier Janney) / VD or later H2a /VD coupler adaptor (*) head. However, most subway "Jerome" fleet shop work was done at Woodlawn, yards, shops, or E.238th Street shops, or 3rd Ave EL 99th Street (* - TOWED AS LIKEWISE) Shops in those early decades. NOTE - (*) Their subway paddle shoes would NOT clear - as protruding further beyond, the Manhattan Elevated only-utilized 3rd Rail AND ITS back-face wood protector board which rose 1 1/2 inches higher the Manhattan Elevated Lines "EL" style 3rd rail heads. Hope this historically further informs you ! regards ! Joe |
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| (684521) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by poobaa on Sun Sep 21 21:40:56 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by daDouce Man on Sun Sep 21 21:33:09 2008. What does this mean?"When the MNR/CDOT M8s debut, we should see what progress they've made in designing a third rail shoe system that function effectively both in AMTK/LIRR territory and in MNR territory. " |
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| (684525) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Sun Sep 21 21:50:25 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by poobaa on Sun Sep 21 21:40:56 2008. When the M8 trains debut MTA would have to rebuild both sets of 3rd rails on BOTH lines so that LIRR and MNRR trains could run on each others ROWs and where AMTRAK shares trackage with both of them. |
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| (684598) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by TunnelRat on Sun Sep 21 23:23:33 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Sep 21 21:40:48 2008. Joe,according to nate gerstein who witnessed the move,the last trainset to leave the 155st.yard was a cleanup train to remove all leftover equipment headed by 3662.this happened a few days after the shuttle shut down for good.steve. |
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| (684626) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Mon Sep 22 00:01:38 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Sep 21 21:40:48 2008. Interesting. So the Hi-Vs that were used on the shuttle servicewere equipped with gravity shoes only? What do you mean by a "Janney" coupler? |
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| (684643) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Michael Wares on Mon Sep 22 00:38:37 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by poobaa on Sun Sep 21 13:40:04 2008. If you're going to quote from someone else's hard work, you should give them credit for it. |
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| (684650) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Mon Sep 22 01:31:41 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Sep 21 19:58:34 2008. I have a couple question about the Composites: Where did they lay them up when they weren't in service? Did they ever run light on the local tracks to get back to Manhattan or the Bronx? |
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| (684709) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Sep 22 07:57:29 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Jeff H. on Mon Sep 22 00:01:38 2008. Hello Jeff H. You, as the tech pro, should know what a "Janney"* (the Mfg) J Style is - the early IRT Coupler style that first replaced the original as delivered Van Dorn link and pin type couplers on the first subway type Composite, Gibbs and Deck Roof Cars...and was later itself upgrad-replaced later with the H2A type automatic. NO, the few steel Hi-V Deck and Gibbs and later Steinway subway Cars USED ON POLO SHUTTLE always retained and had their own standard SUBWAY PADDLE SHOES - BUT those paddle shoes simply being cut back shorter so the inward located contact pad for the EL style 3rd rail was left intact, and the outer shoe segment and its "tip" contact pad for the Subway style 3rd rail was cut off. The steels DID NOT ever have "Drop Sled" Gravity shoes nor were fitted with them. ONLY the IRT former subway "Composite Cars" were fitted with DROP SLED (gravity) shoes when they received their IRT shop-built lightweight Maximum Traction type trucks for 2nd & 3rd Ave EL Express only services. Those same lightweight trucks and with their EL "Sled" type shoes, later went under the "BMT-to-IRT Q-type EL Motor A & C Cars between Jan and April 1950, and remained on the Q's until their end of service late Oct.1969. However, the EL SLED shoes on the Q's "former IRT Composite" trucks were all gradually replaced the subway paddle type shoes thru 1965-66. Thus, by removing old DROP SLED "EL style and position-location" 3rd rail style shoes, allowed the Q-Types along with their earlier 1961-2 added lowered clerestory roofs, to travel systemwide under their own power if desired or required. regards - Joe |
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| (684710) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Mon Sep 22 08:01:30 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by aem7ac on Sun Sep 21 18:05:18 2008. No way. The city needs to replace the parkland it commandeered by building the new Yankee Stadium. |
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| (684726) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Mr Mabstoa on Mon Sep 22 08:21:15 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Sep 22 07:57:29 2008. 
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| (684740) | |
Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els |
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Posted by Mellow One on Mon Sep 22 08:47:02 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by randyo on Sun Sep 21 20:59:19 2008. The original IRT subway - el route on Westchester Ave in the Bronx was built with a connection to the 3rd Ave El at 150th St and operated with el type third rail only in 1904. During the Dual Contract Era, the Jerome Ave line and the Queens lines were built with Dual third rails. The Jerome Ave line was built with an integral connection to the 9th Ave El via the Sedgwick Ave tunnel to the former NY&N bridge to the 155th St Terminal. The Astoria and Corona (Fushing) lines were built by the IRT to connect with the Steinway Subway Tunnel and the Queensboro Bridge 2nd Ave El. The extension of the Westchester Ave Line to White Plains Road was built with Dual third rails. Some time later? the dual third rail was either extended south or the el type third rail was replaced (in 1948?) to the 3rd Ave El junction at 150th St. The Bergen St cutoff was built in 1916 to replace the 150th St connector for 2nd Ave El trains. (The 150th St connector remained in non-revenue use). 3rd Ave El trains used that connector after the 2nd Ave line was closed in 1940 until 1948.The Jerome Ave line retained the dual third rail until the Polo Gronds Shuttle was discontinued in 1958. The Polo Grounnds Shuttle was the remnant of the 9th Ave El connection to the Jerome Ave Line. Some time after the 2nd Ave El connection via the Queensboro Bridge was closed in 1942, the Queens Lines had the el type third rail removed. Probably, the Astoria line was first as it was converted to BMT usage only. In 1958, the remaining Bronx portion of the 3rd Ave El was converted to run IRT Subway cars with covered third rail and the remaining portion of dual third rail north of Gun Hill Road had the el type third rail removed. The el type third rail of the dual third rails south of Gun Hill Road to East 180th St on the White Plains Road was probaly removed some time before WWII. The IRT Broadway, Pelham Bay and Brooklyn El extension never had any dual third rails as there was never any connection to an exising elevated line. Another interesting note; the Dyre Ave line began operation over the former NYW&B with IRT Elevated cars. However the line was set up with subway third rail and the el cars were equipped subway third rail shoes or paddles. That was a twist in third rail history. |
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Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Sep 22 09:00:38 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Sep 22 08:01:30 2008. Parts of it ARE being preserved. |
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| (684814) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Sep 22 11:00:42 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Mon Sep 22 01:31:41 2008. Hello Subwayman The Composites expresses in off peak layup as used on the IRT 2nd and 3rd Ave EL EXPRESS services were laid up on the center tracks of the Bronx 3rd Avenue EL from about (*) 161st Street northward...for express runs ending at either or Tremont Avenue. Some were stored at the E.179th Street Yards of the Bronx 3rd avenue EL until that yard closed sometime in the mid 1940's. And other expresses were stored above Fordham Road Express station (and north to 210th street) for expresses terminating at Fordham Road. The same layup (*) scenario was used for stored Gate and MUDC car Express trainsets, and the later post Jan. 1950 sole surviving fleet of 3rd Ave. EL Q Type and MUDC trainsets. Other Expresses, and Composites, were stored at the E.239th St IRT yards if their runs ended at Gun Hill Road, or during earlier era "EL" express service further north from (lower level) Gun Hill Road Station on the White Plains Road elevated Line. Some 2nd Avewnue EL express service to White Plains Rd. Line "to Freeman St. Station" Composites (and Gate and MUDC) trainsets...were laid up at E.180th St. yards (West Farms) after their final northward PM express run...leaving the yard in the weekday early AM to perform SB Freeman St to 2nd Ave EL services (and later via 3rd Ave EL's replacement rush service to Freeman St till 1947, after the June 1940 "sectional" closing of the 2nd Ave EL portion from E.60th Street north to Harlem River. ALL Layups were at the Bronx portions of lines...on East Side IRT EL's In EARLY AM, The Composites (and their later Q replacements in 1950) - EXPRESSES dead-head relayed SOUTHWARD from their layup "center track" (or yards) location to the nearest "north" route signed passenger pickup station point...either (a) -- E.149th STREET - Starting at roughly 6:30 AM, at below E. 175th Street, to E. 161st St., center track express layup consist(s), starting with the FIRST trainset stored at E.161st St., trainsets gradually relayed south, following each other empty to E. 149th Street Express station center track for first passenger pickups. (b) -- TREMONT AVENUE - Starting at roughly 6:50 AM, express trains center-track stored between E.183rd Street south to E. 179th street, and those coming OUT from the E.179th street yard (when in operation to about 1947) headed south to TREMONT Ave. Express Station for first passenger pickups. (*) NOTE: Some expresses were switched to southbound LOCAL tracks at interlocking just north of TREMONT, to serve as Local-Expresses to 149th Street, to pick up Bronx local station passengers desiring Manhattan Express services. Others alternately scheduled ran THRU express from TREMONT southbound. (c) -- FORDHAM ROAD - Around 7:20 AM, starting at BELOW E.204th street center track layups, express trains relayed, starting with FIRST trainset layup southernmost closest to Fordham Road (usually at E.194th Street & Webster Ave) and relay-followed by subsequent laid up further north consists, dead-head relayed to Fordham Rd.express Station for passenger pickup there. (*) NOTE: Some were switched to southbound LOCAL TRACK at Interlocking just north of Fordham Road EXP Station...top provide "Local-Express" service to alternately either E.149th street (or E. 125th Express Stations and lower level (local) track below E. 145th Street BUT ONLY BY USING "lighter" 'GATE OR MUDC CAR EXPRESS TRAINSETS' there) "LOCAL tracks" ...picking up ALL Local Station passengers between those points and the above 2 indicated express southern point stations. At E. 121st street and 3rd Avenue interlocking (Manhattan), EL GATE OR MUDC CAR CLASS CONSISTS ONLY Local-Expresses to 125th St. Express station LOWER LEVEL switched from southbound Local to southbound center Express track. Others expresses alternately (and most specifically the Composites and later Q Types only) were assigned as center track THRU expresses from Gun Hill Road, Fordhamd Road or Tremont Avenue south into Manhattan. (d) -- Gun Hill Road Station - Starting around 7:30 AM - via either dead-head relaying NORTH on center track layup to there from center layup points above E. 204th & E. 210th street Local stations, or SOUTH to Gun Hill Road from E.239th St yards....trains left Gun Hill Road alternatingly as THRU expresses to Manhattan and Local-Expresses to E. 149th street, becoming Express from E.149th street Express station via being switched at E. 152nd Street Iterlocking to center track southbound. END OF AM RUSH PERIOD -- All Express trains of COMPOSITES (and later Q Types) DEAD HEAD RETURNED northbound, from CITY HALL STATION OR CANAL STREET EXPRESS STATION southern terminals in mid AM returns to the Bronx and assigned lay up positions on northbound LOCAL tracks, usually closely following various scheduled Local Trains. Some GATES AND MUDC ONLY express consists were changed to northbound-return LOCALS only..."extra board" revene carrying to Bronx enroute to later layup at end of "extra" local run. After Nov. 1950, the then-new to 3rd Ave servies Q-Types Expresses-ONLY (and MUDC Locals and expresses) were terminated alternately at either Chatham Square UPPER LEVEL (former 3rd Ave Line South Ferry Branch route station) and CANAL STREET or CITY (lower level) HALL Local-express Stations. After 1953, closing of City Hall Branch and removal --- Q Type Expresses and MUDC Locals and Expresses alternately southern-terminated at Chatham Square (upper level) or Canal Street Stations. Some few scheduled MUDC or Gate expresses did run to and from SOUTH FERRY pre Nov. 1950 of that branch closing and removal later ...as ONLY those car class specific consists were light enough revenue carrying to navigate that 1877 built lattice format structure and weight restrictions. IN EVENING PM RUSH HOUR ONSET - The Bronx "mid-day lay ups of Express consists of variously, Composites, Gate's, MUDC's and later in 1950 onward, just remaining Q Types & MUDC's, dead headed in relays southbound ON SB LOCAL TRACKS, usually following closely a scheduled south bound local. At either (see branch closing dates again above) CITY HAll, CANAL STREET or "SOUTH FERRY using Gates and MUDC consists ONLY" .. the northbound expresses... (a) -- ran Local-Expresses stoping at Expresss stations only in Manhattan, and Local Stations in the Bronx north from either 149th St EXP. Station north, or Tremont Ave. EXP. Station north, towards Gun Hill Road (b) Ran the first expresses as THRU EXPRESSES to Gun Hill Road...laying up north of there at 239th Street yards (c) -- ran the subsequent and later final rush-period THRU express as route-signed to either FORDHAM ROAD and discharged passengers there for relay layup(s) above there and below Gun Hill Road -- (d) -- and later alternately following consists to TREMONT AVENUE with those expresses dead-heading to center track layup north and BELOW Fordham Road (and until 1947, also into the nearby E.179th Street Yards) -- with all those express trackge segments as being relay layup-filled-up at near-end of PM rush hour period, and as thus being bypassed north of TREMONT by solely LOCAL-EXPRESSES operating on NB Local tracks from E. 149th Street to Gun Hill Road. The final expresses dead headed south on SB Local to interlocking just above TREMONT, and headed south on center express track BELOW TREMONT towards E. 161st Sreet (Local Station area) --with subsequent following final express relay layups parking behind and northward above E. 161st Street area. Complicated, length as needs be, but that basically it. NOTE: The POLO GROUND SHUTTLE initially operated Composites and MUDC short trainsets ONLY...those trainsets using EL STYLE "DROP SLED" 3rd Rail Shoes and Manhattan EL (with wood safety backboard) style 3rd Rails...from June 1940 thru 1950 per (a) -- the FINAL closing of the previously HUGE but by post 1941 period somewhat truncated E.155th-159th St street Elevated structure layup yards....where the Composite and MUDC shuttles were laid up and lightly-maintained....heavy repair shopped mainly at Woodlawn-Jerome Line Barns (b) -- ALL Composite Cars gradually being retired between January thru, by, April 1950, for re-using their motor trucks to be transfered to the ex-BMT Q-Types (c) The Steel High V and Low-V Steinway used SHUTTLE trains/ cars were stored at Woodlawn when all were not operating at any given time. regards - Joe |
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| (684831) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Sep 22 11:41:34 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by TunnelRat on Sun Sep 21 23:23:33 2008. Hello Steve (T-RAT) Yes, Steve, I was (and your point being ?) also quite aware of that move and saw it also....as I was staying in a residence on Anderson Avenue at 163rd for July & August that summer and was almost daily hanging around and randomly photographing the PUTNAM, NYCRR MU's and POLO Line and infastructure regularly. And after it closed and was abandoned with the Bridge abandoned in fully OPEN (to river traffic) position. Nate and I didnt know of, nor, each other back then, but possibly unwittingly may have passed each other both unknowingly and unaware, remotely, at times - in, near, the shuttle vicinity area and neighborhood streets and shopping areas (161st to 167th streets...Sedgwick to Grand Concourse. Only in NY City...heh ! He lived over on,ornear, E. 167th street near the Jerome Ave. EL and the Loew's Theatre one of my uncles co-managed there then as a relief manager. (Saw a lot of free movies in there too, heh ) My uncle had his own Loew's theatre in Upper East side Manhattan. GREAT civilized years they were back then...for me, him, the Bronx.... Joe |
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| (684844) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by poobaa on Mon Sep 22 12:07:35 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Sep 22 11:41:34 2008. I lived on Sedgwick Ave just north of High Bridge NY Central station.Small world, I am in AZ now. I use to watch the Put steam at engine house and round table. I lived there 1942 to 1958. Sorry about the cut and paste quote without source. It was a continuation from the post before it and it clipped out the source, my bad. |
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| (684857) | |
Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els |
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Posted by TunnelRat on Mon Sep 22 12:28:53 2008, in response to Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els, posted by Mellow One on Mon Sep 22 08:47:02 2008. And it was carried on the books as an IND line,using IND crews. |
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Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Sep 22 12:31:18 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Michael Wares on Mon Sep 22 00:38:37 2008. I think most recognize Joe Brennan's work. |
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Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by TunnelRat on Mon Sep 22 12:35:59 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Sep 22 11:41:34 2008. Hi joe,it was just a point of intrest that I mentioned it.steve. |
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Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Sep 22 12:37:59 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Sep 22 09:00:38 2008. I believe the playing field will remain intact. |
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| (684867) | |
Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Sep 22 12:41:35 2008, in response to Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els, posted by Mellow One on Mon Sep 22 08:47:02 2008. The BMT was able to use el and subway cars on track with one third rail. Why couldn't the IRT do so? Dual third rail seems wasteful and dangerous. |
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| (684868) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Sep 22 12:47:07 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Sep 22 12:37:59 2008. It might just be the infield. Also, I read that there is a desire to save some remnant of some wall. |
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Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Sep 22 12:53:06 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Sep 22 12:47:07 2008. As I recall the original plans, the facade facing the Deegan was to remain, along with a portion of the stands at field level. The field itself would become mostly for the local high school baseball teams, but open to anyone when the PSAL wasn't using it. |
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| (684875) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Sep 22 12:59:57 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Michael Wares on Mon Sep 22 00:38:37 2008. http://www.nycsubway.org/lines/9thave-el.html |
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Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon Sep 22 13:30:06 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Sep 22 12:53:06 2008. I believe you are correct. |
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