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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue Jul 24 05:02:23 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jul 23 11:27:01 2007. A lot of people will never accept that no transit money was lost because of Moses. The very fact that there was never a hint of bribery or corruption during his reign is in itself a NYC miracle. Moses also cannot be blamed for tearing down the Els or other missed transportation improvements like capturing the Old Rock although many will do so anyway because he's an easy target for everything that went wrong since he left. The truth is that we had brain-dead zombies running NY's transit agencies during Moses' time. Had the same kind of people also been running the parks and highways during that time we would have been left with a sorry excuse of a city. Every major corporation and institution would have abandoned it. Had Bob Moses still been in around in the 80s, Westway would have been built and completed on time and under budget with the Feds paying for most of it and we would have had a great new park on top of that. At least I'm glad that all that federal money for Westway went to the subways. Oh wait...it didn't! It went to other cities! I'm sure some here will curse Moses' ghost for that one too. The many may have been an arrogant prick but I'm thankful that we got him instead of some other place. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue Jul 24 05:11:49 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Mon Jul 23 22:58:18 2007. $$$$. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jul 24 06:05:07 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by SMAZ on Tue Jul 24 05:02:23 2007. Thank you! :)Actually, transit's WORST enemy was LaGuardia who insisted that those pesky els come down. He was followed by O'Dwyer and Impellittieri who followed that tradition of preserving a hopeless fare and finally by Wagner who *truly* sent things into a tailspin in "deferred maintenance of EVERYTHING" but things had gotten *so* bad by his time that even he had to begrudgingly bring along the original "redbirds" fleets in both divisions owing to public outrage over how bad the subways had gotten by the 1950's and some bond issues which paid for them, along with Moses' wants. I *love* how people get off on the 60's and 70's as the pits of transit. It was FAR worse in the 50's, but in the 1960's John Vliet Lindsay came along and made QUITE the commitment to rebuilding the subways. It was Lindsay who brought us "air conditioned cars" and all that came from the R38's and beyond ... then the city ran out of money with such massive car purchases and other economic downturns. And here we go again repeating history with the 14x's and 160's, but this time even Cobleskill gets to foot the bill. :( Moses ABSOLUTELY played his part, his ego forcing HIS priorities to the front of the soup line but I have to agree that when transit was in the city's hands, there were MAYORS to blame for all that transpired and the city council. Lindsay's expenditures finally pushed the TA over the edge and out of the wisdom of the time, Lindsay ceded authority for the TA to the "Long Island Railroad bailout" by the state to the enhanced MTA which now runs it all in order to keep his promise of "air conditioned subways" a reality even if the city gave up its transit to the governor. Lindsay was a republican, so was Rockefeller and thus the boy had faith. And as long as Rottenfeller was governor with his own personal checkbook, nobody worried about getting paid. Until he became Veep and Ford flipped off the city along with Rocky and his Friends. :( LOT of revisionist history out there ... LOTS. :( |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 07:02:16 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by SMAZ on Tue Jul 24 05:02:23 2007. Wow, at last a post of reason in this thread! You got it exactly correct. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by Dave on Tue Jul 24 07:12:47 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Mon Jul 23 22:58:18 2007. Did you bother to read the rest of this thread? It has been discussed in many of the posts. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 07:13:04 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by Michael549 on Tue Jul 24 01:31:55 2007. (Must we bring up the issue of General Motors and bus transit?)No we don't, I understand that, but we are not discussing that right now. You can't blame Moses for a trend that was happening ALL OVER THE COUNTRY. It was a thought process that changed the COUNTRY, and Moses was not to blame for that...or is Moses to blame for the loss of the streetcar routes to buses in just about every city in the country too. You are arguing two different things, and blaming Moses for things that were happening (and not happening) everywhere in that era. In fact federal urban policy was in every way all about getting out of the city Yes, I didn't say it wasn't. However, if MOses didn't bring the money here to NY for road/bridge/park/tunnel construction, it's NOT like it would have come here anyway for transit. Isntead it would have went to some other city for THEIR road/bridge project. All of these activities was taking place not only in New York City, but in cities across the country. Robert Moses while a very powerful player in this tale, is just one of the many powerful interests that helped to bring about these changes. Yes, that is all I was saying too, but it would have happened WITH or WITHOUT him. But without a strong figure in the NY metro area, doing the same AS WAS HAPPENING ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, NY would have been left out in the cold, and would not be the HEALTHY city it is today, as it and it's suburbs would be choking on themselves, with no movable roads, no bridges other than the old East River Bridges, and perhaps one other, and could not have grown to where it is today, one of the healthiest cities in the country....with HEALTHY suburbs. Sure, NY has it's problems, but compared to other cities, it and it's suburbs are one of the best off. Why did the Giants move out of New York City? Simple - because it was financially an advantage to do so. The conditions were set in such a way for that to happen. Stadiums need space and frankly space downtown is just too expensive. Yes, I agree with that. But that's not Moses' fault, as some here are trying to blame. He has been used as the scapegoat for just about everything, and that is incorrect. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 07:16:14 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 07:13:04 2007. Just for the record, I am not disagreeing with a lot of what you said, I was just elaborating on some of your statements, and just commenting on a few I don't 100% agree with. What people fail to realize is that there are LOTS of factors that was going on in that era, and Moses was one of them, but he is not to blame for everything that went wrong in that era. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jul 24 07:19:39 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 07:16:14 2007. But ONE thing that IS valid ... Robert Moses *was* a racist ... MUCH of his paperwork and memos DID solicit opinions from his underlings as to how to keep MINORITIES off his precious Island as some sort of "will of the people." THAT aspect of his shame was VERY much for real. :( |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Jul 24 08:54:45 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Jul 24 02:31:32 2007. I have never forgotten what the Phillies did to the Mets in August of 1980. The Mets were 56-57 and seemed headed for a respectable finish. Then the Phils swept a five-game series and sent the Mets plummeting, Flushing yet another season down the crapper.OTOH the Mets haven't lost 10,000 games - yet.:) Grant was a BOZO. The only reason he was in the front office at all was because he was lone naysayer when the Giants voted to move and Mrs. Payson, a big fan of Willie Mays, brought Grant on board as a stipulation for putting up the money to get the Mets started. After she died, her daughter, Lorinda de Roulet, assumed ownership and gave Grant carte blanche to do what he wanted. That's when the real trouble began. Seaver was traded, then the whole team was dismantled bit by bit. To make matters worse, the Mets didn't actively pursue any free agents because they were concerned about keeping ticket prices down. They didn't realize that if the team sucks, you won't be able to GIVE AWAY tickets. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Tue Jul 24 09:44:49 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by MATHA531 on Mon Jul 23 00:39:16 2007. We also have Moses to thank for the low overpasses on the Southern and Northern State Parkways put there deliberately to keep low income people from taking buses out to his precious beaches at Jones Beach (and do remember many of these people when this construction occurred were not necessarily people of color).First off, the above statements are incorrect. If you look at the Bronx River PARKWAY, it was never designed for buses or trucks. The Bronx River PARKWAY was the nation's earliest PARKWAY. NO trucks or buses went down the road. I am sure when the roadway was designated as a PARKWAY, he never wanted trucks and buses to go down it, regardless of the destination. Although, every now and then you'll get some clown trying to beat the odds with a truck and the overpasses but they never make it and just cause traffic tie ups in the ending. It is also a known fact the Moses had to bow the pressure of politically connected "fat-cats" living in Old Westbury/Brookville from buidling straight into their backyards. That is why you now see the Northern State takes a BIG-ASS turn around Old Westbury instead of continuing to parallel the LIE. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by MATHA531 on Tue Jul 24 09:54:05 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by streetcarman1 on Tue Jul 24 09:44:49 2007. ...but here's the point, he never deviated the route of projects such as the Cross Bronx Expressway to try to save the homes of middle and lower income people but had no problem with doing so for the Northern State. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Jul 24 09:58:43 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Jul 22 12:36:14 2007. It's a similar situation here in Denver. This is a football town, period. Oh, we've got the Nuggets (NBA) and the Avalanche (NHL) and then there's the Rockies, but the Broncos are the top banana. The Rockies' honeymoon is definitely over and attendance reflects that. They won't draw 3 million, let alone 2 million again unless they become competitive. |
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Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Tue Jul 24 10:21:49 2007, in response to Re: Cross Manhattan expressway, posted by Wallyhorse on Mon Jul 23 01:58:17 2007. I remember watching a special on Moses a while back, and it actually was a woman named Jane Jacobs who was mainly responsible for preventing the Cross Manhattan Expressway from going through.She also wrote some excellent books:
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 24 10:49:10 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jul 23 22:30:02 2007. So what you are saying is that Moses did not permit buses unintentionally and that it was rather the result of planning that did not foresee taller and longer buses to be in the future.This goes against what Caro said, that it was suggested to Moses to make the overpasses higher and that he specifically insisted that they be designed low. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Tue Jul 24 11:02:39 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jul 24 07:19:39 2007. AND---the one area that was able to fight off Moses was Manhattan, because they had money. In areas such as Williamsburg, Woodside, and the Bronx, many homes were taken and not properly relocated or compensated...and people's attempts to stop it were thrown out by the state courts.These moves hurt many more than they helped, as the Bronx east of Webster has never recovered. At least in Queens, the big expressways and parkways mostly followed the paths of existing boulevards. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Tue Jul 24 11:09:40 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by MATHA531 on Tue Jul 24 09:54:05 2007. Robert Moses.....did what HE wanted to do.....at ANY COST. He didn't care that he was butchering up neighborhoods with his road project, he just knew "it had to be done no matter what." Since the residents that lived along the Cross Bronx Expressway were NOT politcally connected up in Albany, their areas were destinded to be chopped up. But again, that was not the case with Old Westbury and Brookville. They fought back with their connections up in Albany. That is also why if you drive along the LIE at night, you will see also there are no lights at all between Glen Cove Rd and Jericho Tpke because the "fat-cats" didn't want the intense light from the LIE beaming down through the trees and into there homes. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Jul 24 11:12:56 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jul 23 22:59:08 2007. Chicago originally intended to keep their most heavily-used streetcar routes, but eventually decided to get rid of them entirely. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 11:13:48 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by streetcarman1 on Tue Jul 24 11:09:40 2007. But again, that was not the case with Old Westbury and Brookville.Yes, that is true in the case of the Northern State.....but some years later, Robert Moses DID get the Long Island Expressway through..... That is also why if you drive along the LIE at night, you will see also there are no lights at all between Glen Cove Rd and Jericho Tpke because the "fat-cats" didn't want the intense light from the LIE beaming down through the trees and into there homes. Was true, not true anymore, I guess you haven't driven the LIE within the last 3 or 4 years.....lights all through now..... |
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Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 11:15:50 2007, in response to Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway, posted by Rail Blue on Tue Jul 24 10:21:49 2007. Somehow the people of Bushwick got them to stop plans for I78, the Bushwick Expressway that was to have taken approx the path of Bushwick Ave. Unfortunately, Bushwick fell all on it's own to shambles even without the Bushwick Expressway. While I am glad it never went through....I don't accept the "The Cross Bronx Exp killed the Bronx" nonsense. The Bronx would have fell with or without the Cross Bronx, just as Bushwick did. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 11:17:30 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 24 10:49:10 2007. When the parkways were designed in the 20's, it was impossible to foresee what hold buses would take, and especially the size. Streetcars still reigned supreme in the 1920's, and autos were just beginning to become more than a novelty....forget about buses even a thought. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 11:18:46 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Jul 24 11:12:56 2007. Unfortunately, so did most every other city. A real shame.... Los Angeles, New York, Brooklyn, and cities around the country all lost their extensive streetcar routes. Philly appears to be one of the few smarter cities that kept them, and even they lost a lot. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 11:23:37 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by streetcarman1 on Tue Jul 24 09:44:49 2007. We also have Moses to thank for the low overpasses on the Southern and Northern State Parkways put there deliberately to keep low income people from taking buses out to his precious beaches at Jones Beach (and do remember many of these people when this construction occurred were not necessarily people of color).Oh stop it.....the Southern and Northern State were designed in the 1920's....buses weren't even around back then. Streetcars reighned supreme, autos were just beginning to get off the ground, and it was impossible to see the foothold of what buses would become in the 1920's when the first parkways were being built. By the time it was seen what buses would become, Robert Moses began building EXPRESSWAYS. And for the record, there are no obstructions or low overpasses to stop the bringing buses to you "his socalled precious Jones Beach". It is also a known fact the Moses had to bow the pressure of politically connected "fat-cats" living in Old Westbury/Brookville from buidling straight into their backyards. That is why you now see the Northern State takes a BIG-ASS turn around Old Westbury instead of continuing to parallel the LIE. Yes.....but RObert Moses some years later won in the end, and got the LIE STRAIGHT through where the Northern State should have gone..... |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 11:29:10 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by MATHA531 on Tue Jul 24 09:54:05 2007. but here's the point, he never deviated the route of projects such as the Cross Bronx Expressway to try to save the homes of middle and lower income people but had no problem with doing so for the Northern State.Explain Moses' Long Island Expressway some years later straight through Old Westbury..... He won over them in the end. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 11:35:26 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by AMoreira81 on Tue Jul 24 11:02:39 2007. These moves hurt many more than they helped, as the Bronx east of Webster has never recovered.Please state source and stats for this alleged fact. I am sure the hundreds of millions that use the Cross Bronx would disagee with you. And Bushwick, which was able to fight off the Bushwick Expressway right down Bushwick Ave, fell all on it's own, even nwithout the Bushwick Expressway, and as well as many neighborhoods that didn't have an "expressway" brought through. There are many factors that "killed" Brooklyn and the Bronx, and that all can't be blamed on an "expressway" that passed through, and didn't pass through many other parts of the Bronx or Brooklyn that fell just as hard. Where is all the hardship Maspeth suffered when the LIE was cut right through it's heart? Maspeth never fell, and neither did many parts of Queens, that had lots of demolition, loosing entire sides of streets right down the path of the LIE. Horace Harding Blvd was a regular road, not wide enough for a 6 lane expressway, with side median and serivce roads....how do you think they cut the LIE through? An entire side of the street, and half of every block in was demolished. And the Path through Maspeth for the LIE was very similar to what happened for the Cross Bronx. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Tue Jul 24 13:05:24 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 11:35:26 2007. I'm sorry, I meant WEST of Webster...not EAST of Webster. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by WillD on Tue Jul 24 15:42:20 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 11:23:37 2007. Big on revisionst history eh?p.318 of The Power Broker: [Moses] had restricted the use of state parks by poor and lower-middle-class families in the first place, by limiting access to the parks by rapid transit; he had vetoed the Long Island Rail Road's proposed construction of a branch spur to Jones Beach for this reason. Now he began to limit acess by buses; he instructed Shapiro to build the bridges across his new parkways low - too low for buses to pass. Bus trips therefore had to be made on local roads, making the trips discouragingly long and arduous. For Negroes, whom he considered inherently "dirty," there were further measures. Buses needed permits to enter state parks; buses chartered by Negro groups found it ver difficult to obtain permits, particularly to Moses' beloved Jones Beach; most were shunted to parks many miles further out on Long Island.p. 546-547: Moses' ingeniously restrictive laws and ingeniously low-clearance parkway bridges had insured that buses would never be able to ruin the beauty of his Long Island parkways or carry poor people along them to his state parks. The Board of Estimate's Chief Engineer, Philip P. Farley, noticed that Moses was planning to low-bridge the city, too; enough of his Henry Hudson Parkway bridges were going to have a maximum headroom of thirteen feet and a headroom at the curb of eleven feet so that usage of the parkay by buses - which were exactly thirteen feet high - would be impractical. "One third of the families in the city have automobiles," Farley reported to the board. "The other two-thirds depend on buses. If they are to get any benefit from this improvement, buses must use [it]." Moreover, while the priciple function of Moses' Long Island parkways had been to enable drivers to reach state park, the principle function of the Henry Hudson Parkway would be to enable drivers from Bronx and Westchester to commute to their jobs in Manhattan; his earler roads had been for pleasure, but this would be a road for business. Without buses, commuting on it would only be by car. This might well prove impractical; not only would the parkway increase the flow of cars into traffic clogged Manhattan, but, with the inevitable increase in the population of Spuyten Duyvil, Riverdale, and Westchester, car traffic might well overwhelm theparkway. In some future generation, opening it to buses each able to carry fourty or more car drivers might well become imperative. But, as Farley said, "the normal life of the parkway bridges is estimated at 100 years." Rebuilding them after the parkway itself had been completed would be enormously expensive. One of the thirteen foot bridges, the one at 239th Street, was, by design, the centerpiece of a large traffic interchange, all of which would have to be rebuilt - at a cost of millions of dollars. If Moses was allowed to build low bridges, even if the city might in some future generation want to allow buses on the Henry Hudson Parkway, it might simply be financially impractical to do so.p. 951: Robert Moses was, after all, mortal, Lee Koppelman kept reminding himself - "even if sometimes it didn't seem that way" - and, one day, either death or old age would end Moses' decades of power. And Koppelman believed, it would not take long after that day for bus service to be instituted on all Long Island's major highways, not only on its expressways but on 200 miles of parkways.The last entry is perhaps most damning to your myth that the reduced height of the parkway bridges is an urban legend, because both it and the first entry from page 318 are based on interviews with Sid Shapiro, perhaps the most stalwart of the "Moses Men" and Moses' right hand man for long after he was forced from power. The middle entry is based directly on Mr. Farley's testimony and correspondance with the Board of Estimate and thus can be considered primary source material. It is blatantly obvious that not only was it done by Moses, but it was his idea for the expressed purpose of keeping the lower class and black people away from his parks. |
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Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 24 15:44:10 2007, in response to Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 11:15:50 2007. Caro makes a strong case that the CBE accelerated the Bronx's decline by forcing people to move out of stable neighborhood and often putting them in housing that was inferior to where they were thrown out from or they moved in with relatives increasing overcrowding. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 24 16:00:22 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by WillD on Mon Jul 23 16:16:09 2007. Moses' only problem with the Queens Midtown and Battery tunnels was that he didn't control them.That and the fact they were tunnels and couldn't "be seen.". He preferred bridges so he and everyone else could admire his work. At the recent Moses exhibit in Flushing Meadow Park, there was a note that when Moses had the model built, he made sure that the bridges were at a different scale from the rest of the model so they should stand out. What an egomaniac! |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 24 16:09:56 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 11:35:26 2007. And the Path through Maspeth for the LIE was very similar to what happened for the Cross Bronx.The path may have been similar but you can't compare the population densities. Most of what was demolished for the Cross Bronx in the Tremont section were fully occupied six story apartment houses, not one and two family homes. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by WillD on Tue Jul 24 16:18:09 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jul 23 23:12:55 2007. You're making my head hurt. It astonishes me that I can tell you you have it backwards, and then somehow you can still get it backwards in a completely different way. Yes, retail distribution is best done on trucks because most stores are less than carload, but people, and freight off LI are still better served by rail. Thanks to Moses LI never got a freight rail tunnel, and the Long Island Railroad was suffocated until it nearly collapsed. Yes, road bridges and tunnels are needed, but it has to be done in coordination with rail and other forms of transit, and for the 40 years of Moses' reign transit was choked from nearly any funding. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Tue Jul 24 16:31:15 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 11:13:48 2007. Yes, that is true in the case of the Northern State.....but some years later, Robert Moses DID get the Long Island Expressway throughHere is what Moses "DID": .....this is a piece taken from NYCROADS.COM - Just east of the newly opened section in western Nassau County, Moses made a deal with Charles E. Wilson, former president of General Motors and defense secretary under President Dwight Eisenhower. Under the deal, which was brokered between the NYSDPW and the Federal government, Wilson, who was deep in debt, sold his parcels of land in Old Westbury to the NYSDPW. Moses could build the Long Island Expressway through Old Westbury - the same area that the Northern State Parkway avoided in the "Objector's Bend" deal a quarter century earlier - but could not construct interchanges for a four-mile stretch. So as you all can see, Moses didn't have to work too hard to get what he needed. Nor did he face a band of "fat-cats" to get the LIE through Old Westbury. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 24 16:33:38 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 07:13:04 2007. Moses shouldn't be used as a scapegoat for just about everything, but you can't deny his overwhelming influence and how he ruled using fear which resulted in good and bad. No one is denying the good he did as far as parks are concerned, and he does deserve credit for his roads.But he did divert money from mass transit, just as he diverted money from needed schools and hospitals. Everything else that he did not control suffered during his years. I know you disagree, but not allowing mass transit in the medians of the Van Wyck or LIE when they would have been cost effective then, that is the same as diverting money from mass transit. Yes he brought in a lot of federal money, but if his policies were more balanced and he was not such an egomaniac, he could have accomplished more good with less of the bad that is associated with him. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 24 16:36:05 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 11:17:30 2007. If it were impossible to foresee what hold buses would take, why was he advised that the overpasses were being designed too low, and why did he choose to ignore that advice? |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Tue Jul 24 16:44:06 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by WillD on Tue Jul 24 15:42:20 2007. It is blatantly obvious that not only was it done by Moses, but it was his idea for the expressed purpose of keeping the lower class and black people away from his parks.I guess the "old son of a gun" is turning over in his grave now because his vision of having no African-Americans at his parks/beaches is not true as we all know it in our modern times. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jul 24 16:51:46 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by American Pig on Mon Jul 23 03:56:14 2007. That may be true, but under Mayor Daley's administration, rapid transit lines were constructed along expressway medians so that commuters had a real choice as to what mode of transportation to take. The first case of this of course was a replacement of the Garfield Pk el by the Congress St Line. The next two were the Northwest Expwy route and the Dan Ryan Expwy Line which provided rapid transit service to areas not previously served. Construction was carried out by an agency known as the "Department of Subways and Superhighways" which had responsibility for consructing just what its name indicated. Had Moses hd a vision for a properly balanced transportation system with a realistic combination of highways and rapid transit lines, New York would have had both the roads to enable it to keep pace with urban development and also the rapid transit lines to serve those who do not wish to use private automobiles. Even car crazy California has realized that a proper combination of highways and rail mass transit is necessary for the survival of a modern metropolis. |
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Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Jul 24 18:54:31 2007, in response to Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway, posted by Rail Blue on Tue Jul 24 10:21:49 2007. Jacobs was not the first person to stand up to Moses, but she was probably the first one to successfully do it. As much as we should praise her and Jacqueline Kennedy-Onassis for ending the era of "tear it down, no matter what", we seem to now have gone to the other extreme. If an ordinary Bronx housing project can claim landmark status as the "birth of hip-hop", then we've lost our collective minds. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 18:55:05 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by randyo on Tue Jul 24 16:51:46 2007. Even car crazy California has realized that a proper combination of highways and rail mass transit is necessary for the survival of a modern metropolis.Yeah, in recent decades. |
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Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 19:06:59 2007, in response to Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Jul 24 18:54:31 2007. If an ordinary Bronx housing project can claim landmark status as the "birth of hip-hop", then we've lost our collective minds.Yes, that is just ridiculous....those things should be torn down by the handful... |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 19:10:21 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 24 16:09:56 2007. Yes, agreed, but it's the smaller scale 6 family houses (three stories), and two family homes that more make a neighborhood. Don't get me wrong, yes, it scarred the face of a neighborhood, but the Bronx was in trouble even before that, and would have fallen even without the Expressway. Bushwick's path of the Bushwick Expressway would have only torn down two family, three family, and some 6 family homes, yet Bushwick fell all on it's own without the help of any expressway coming through too. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 19:18:25 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 24 16:33:38 2007. Moses shouldn't be used as a scapegoat for just about everything, but you can't deny his overwhelming influence and how he ruled using fear which resulted in good and bad.Agreed. However, many anit-Moses people do use him as a scapegoat for EVERYTHING that went wrong in 50's and 60's in NY, and that is ridiculous. But he did divert money from mass transit Incorrect. The money he got to NY was Federal money for the roads, parks, bridges, etc. If HE didn't bring that money TO NY for those prokects, it's not like it would have went to transit in NY instead. No, it would have went to some other city for THEIR road or bridge project instead. Everything else that he did not control suffered during his years. Then there should have been someone put to run transit expansion, and seek funding. That's where the problem was. There was no one incharge of bring money to NY for transit, but then again, remember the era, transit was looked at as "old fashioned" back then. Again, trying to bring today's knowledge and ideals into an a different era. I know you disagree, but not allowing mass transit in the medians of the Van Wyck or LIE when they would have been cost effective then, that is the same as diverting money from mass transit. Okay, I can agree with that. However, there was a WORKING line right next to the airport anyway (LIRR ROckaway line), and that was not used either for airport link. A WORKING line, right at their doorstep, and through neighborhoods that could use subway, yet that line was just let to rot. No one was even using existing lines for transit, much less building brand new ones. Yes he brought in a lot of federal money, but if his policies were more balanced and he was not such an egomaniac, he could have accomplished more good with less of the bad that is associated with him. I can agree with that too. I already said he was a pompous arrogant man. However, remember the era he was in. The majority of people around the country looked at not only transit as "old fashioned", but also looked at cities as "old fashioned". The suburbs were the wave of the future back then. THAT ideal of THAT era is what caused the problem. Robert Moses was just a product of that thiniking in that era. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 19:22:45 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 24 16:00:22 2007. That and the fact they were tunnels and couldn't "be seen.". He preferred bridges so he and everyone else could admire his work.Well, bridges are more visable than everything else, that was always the case of egos. Even Mr Roebling must have been flying high at "his" bridge.... And anyway, what about the Lincoln TUnnel, Battery Tunnel, and Midtown Tunnel? Valuable links, and yet underground and unseen. At the recent Moses exhibit in Flushing Meadow Park You mean Flushing Meadow Park, a valuable CITY park that would have still been a garbage and ash dump if not for Robert Moses? |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 19:24:00 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 24 16:36:05 2007. Think of what a bus was in the 1920's. And don't compare them to what they became by the 1950's. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 24 19:25:12 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 11:29:10 2007. Not so. See Streetcarman1 response above. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 19:28:41 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by streetcarman1 on Tue Jul 24 16:31:15 2007. Yes, but seeing that he lost the first battle, he knew JUST how to get back at those people to GET the LIE through. It may have taken a few more years, but he DID get the road through. I don't see your point....the road came through, where it was meant to go, right through were some years earlier he lost at getting the first road through....what difference does it make how it was done, the point is that the people of Old Westbury couldn't stop it (even if originally it didn't have lights). But you know what? That light issue is also a non issue also to Robert Moses, the ENTIRE Long Island Expressway didn't have ANY streetlights for the ENTIRE stretch through Nassau and Suffolk until the early 80's....long after the end of Robert Moses' era. The streetlights ended at the Queens-Nassau border. The Old Westbury objection was when they added the lights through Nassau in the early 80's, NOT in Moses' era. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 19:30:48 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by streetcarman1 on Tue Jul 24 16:44:06 2007. It is blatantly obvious that not only was it done by Moses, but it was his idea for the expressed purpose of keeping the lower class and black people away from his parks.Huh???? There are no obstructions to bringing Buses to Jones Beach, I believe buses were always able to reach Jones Beach. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 24 19:35:12 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 19:30:48 2007. Yes by taking local roads to the Jones Beach access roads, not by taking the Northern or Southern State Parkways from the City. This greatly increased the time it would take to get to Jones Beach per the earlier citation from the Power Broker. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 19:36:24 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by WillD on Tue Jul 24 16:18:09 2007. but people, and freight off LI are still better served by rail.Yes, I understand that, but again, we are an island in Manhattan, and on Long Island, there is only one way in and out by rail, so that is where the problem lies. But you STILL need good roads to get goods through. NYC and it's suburbs would not be the modern city and metro area it is today if not for those bridges and highways to get it through. Traffic would be at a standstill along local roads. Yes, road bridges and tunnels are needed, but it has to be done in coordination with rail and other forms of transit, and for the 40 years of Moses' reign transit was choked from nearly any funding. Of course it does, but once again, you are using TODAY's ideals and knowledge, and learning, and trying to place it in an era that looked at rail (any rail) as old fashioned. Cities were looked at as dying entities, and suburbs served by cars and trucks were looked at as the wave for the future. Today, we know better, but you can't place today's thinking, and try to explain actions in an era of completely different thinking. And again, this is not unique to NY. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 19:38:42 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 24 19:35:12 2007. You are looking at the sunrise highway as the road it is today, snarled with traffic (and traffic lights, at least in Nassau), instead of the rural farm road it was in the 1920's. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jul 24 19:43:22 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by WillD on Tue Jul 24 15:42:20 2007. The Wantagh Parkway is an original 1929 road, never rebuilt. Those are 1920's designed bridges. There was no way to see in the 1920's what buses would become when people were still riding on streetcars, and streetcars were perhaps in their prime yet. When the Southern State was widened, yes, the new bridges were built basically as twins to the old ones. The bridges were NOT rebuilt, they just added a twin next to it, and the new bridge became the reverse traffic lanes. What good would it have been to build them higher? They still would have been the original bridges on the other side of the road.All this is quoted from a book with a vendetta against Moses. Let's seem some sources (that don't quote "The Power Broker"). When a book is written, it can be made with a certain spin depending on the author's goals, beliefs or opinions. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 24 19:45:00 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by SMAZ on Tue Jul 24 05:02:23 2007. While Moses didn't put money in his own pocket or outwardly bribe anyone, he was corrupt by using his position to indirectly bribe people he courted by giving them lavish box seats at his Jones Beach Theater which he expressly built for that purpose. That's why as Caro put it the productions changed only once each season, so Moses could be sure that all his friends saw each one. Logic would have dictated that the shows change more often if it was designed to serve the public and do well financially. Most of the seats often remained empty because few wanted to see the same show twice.You are right in what you said about Westway. Without Moses, and the NIMBYs in power. all we got is an obsolete boulevard. |
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