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Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jun 10 14:21:34 2021 Queens Chronicle |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Jun 10 14:41:06 2021, in response to Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jun 10 14:21:34 2021. It all started with Bloomberg. |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Jun 10 14:52:59 2021, in response to Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jun 10 14:21:34 2021. And Yang is in active oppostion to the RBB. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jun 10 17:46:17 2021, in response to Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jun 10 14:21:34 2021. As I have mentioned in many posts, what this city needs is a Robert Moses like official who will do for mass transit what Moses did for highways and screw the NIMBYs! One of the things that can be done in certain transit starved areas like the north Bronx abd S/E Bkln is the provision of true feeder bus service. When I lived in Marine Pk a guaranteed connection between the #2 train and both the B41 and B44 buses at Flatbush/Nostrand would have definitely been more beneficial than the current setup which has the buses and subways operating on different headways almost guaranteeing missed connections |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jun 10 18:40:53 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by randyo on Thu Jun 10 17:46:17 2021. In 1978, when I was at the Department of City Planning, I did a three day study of the coordination between the subway and B41 and B44 during the evening rush hours to see if there could be better coordination. We found the buses leaving the subway only half full and wanted to know why. So we got copies of the subway arrivals and departures. As you remember, the subways were a mess back then, mostly with door problems. But it was worse than anyone knew. We found that half the trains leaving the Bronx never arrived at Flatbush Avenue with half the trains taken out of service mid route.Therefore we couldn’t do anything about improving coordination because buses couldn’t be held ten minutes for the next train. The other major finding which is still appropriate was that running short services on those routes from the Junction south saved the buses because so many were getting stuck in traffic north of the Junction. We found that with the short services no one had to wait at the Junction more than 10 minutes for a bus with the average wait much lower. However, without those short services, the waits would have been up to 45 minutes because the gaps were that great on the long route. So what does the MTA do? They eliminate all the short services. I am sure that now with SBS and bus lanes, the waits are now greater than ten minutes during the evening rush. As far as your Robert Moses comment, you are correct, but I wonder how big of a problem are the NIMBYs in getting things done. Could you provide some examples where they have been stumbling blocks besides the Rockaway Beach Line? When they made a big deal of the Little Park that was just opened at 14 Street and mentioned it took 8 years of planning, I couldn’t help comparing it wit Robert Moses Building 300 playgrounds in one year. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Thu Jun 10 21:03:35 2021, in response to Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jun 10 14:21:34 2021. Do these democrats realize how much more pollution is being created because their fuel economy killing policies.Lowering speed limits equals more carbon being pumped into the atmosphere from more fuel being burnt. It seems more room on the street for pedestrians and bicycle is more important then fighting climate crises / global warming / climate change or whatever they are calling it the week. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by BILLBKLYN on Thu Jun 10 21:14:55 2021, in response to Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jun 10 14:21:34 2021. Fucking jerkoffs. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jun 10 23:02:27 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by randyo on Thu Jun 10 17:46:17 2021. What dod Moses do for highways, exactly? He didn't do anything that anyone else couldn't have, except spend public money like a drunken sailor. How did other cities get their highways without Moses?Transit did way better in private hands. A Moses-like pro-transit personality would have the SAS up to a billion dollars or more per mile . . . |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jun 10 23:09:51 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jun 10 23:02:27 2021. The Triborough Bridge was stalled for 14 years and couldn't be built. As soon as Moses was put in charge, he was able to get the funding to get it built. Not to mention all the highways he built throughout the city. It wasn't a question of him spending the money, but his ability to get funding for highways and parks. Many people believe he hurt mass transit, but there really was no proof of that. The mass transit projects may never have been built anyway. But it is known that because of Moses's ability to procure money for his pet projects, schools and hospitals suffered. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jun 10 23:11:40 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by Sand Box John on Thu Jun 10 21:03:35 2021. They don't look at it that way. They see cars as evil and no one has the right to drive except the elite in power. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by Dave on Fri Jun 11 06:10:52 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jun 10 23:09:51 2021. "Many people believe he hurt mass transit, but there really was no proof of that. "Have you read The Power Broker? It provides the proof you're asking for. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 11 06:54:42 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jun 10 23:09:51 2021. Money was earmarked for East Bronx IND service, instead diverted to Shore Parkway in Brooklyn where few lived. Who arranged for that ?Who built stone overpasses on the Parkways so that buses would not fit ? Garden State Parkway does not have that issue. Who ordered shafts filled on the Brooklyn side to stop a subway extension to SI ? If he got all those highways built, it is easy to say "mass transit projects may never have been built" because there was no money left. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 11 07:48:51 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by Dave on Fri Jun 11 06:10:52 2021. "The Routes Not Taken" by Raskin is another good read on this. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jun 11 08:27:12 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by Dave on Fri Jun 11 06:10:52 2021. I did read the Power Broker and that was what Caro said, that there were so many other factors involved, that there is no proof that the the diversion of funding toward roads would have gone to mass transit if Moses were not there. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 11 08:32:33 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jun 11 08:27:12 2021. Can't prove a negative. We did prove he diverted transit funds to highways, and from dense, working class areas to unpopulated areas, and that is sufficient to blame him. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jun 11 08:35:12 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 11 06:54:42 2021. I don't remember about diverting money from the East Bronx IND to Shore Parkway. But if true, that is still only one subway. Many hospitals and schools were not built because of Moses.As far as bus fitting on the parkways. They fit under the center lane. But buses would not try to use the road because they did not know that. Didn't know he stopped the Staten Island tunnel. And as I said, there wasn't money left for a lot of other projects besides transit projects. But would we have been better off with boulevards instead if the many highways he built? I don't think so. You can get from southern Brooklyn to the Bronx, Nassau County or New Jersey in 45 minutes during non-rush hours because of Moses. Without his highways, those would be two hour trips today even with better mass transit. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 11 08:43:31 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jun 11 08:35:12 2021. Fitting buses only under the center lane means no buses. There was always money for parkways and highways. Only opposition stoped them.He could well have destroyed the entirety of Fire Island. People are happy with ferries, paths, boardwalks, and isolated communities, each with their own purpose. The western tip of it is not anything like the rest of Fire Island. But his only concern was a Staten Islander could get to Montauk Lighthouse and not encounter a traffic light, fuck everyone else. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Fri Jun 11 09:31:15 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jun 10 23:11:40 2021. They don't look at it that way. They see cars as evil and no one has the right to drive except the elite in power.Adding another piece of evidence that proves they are hypocrites and should never be trusted. To put it simply, Do as I say, not as I do ! John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jun 11 10:20:00 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jun 11 08:27:12 2021. The obvious example, which I think Caro pointed out, is that he purposely didn’t build highways with medians that could have later been used for transit like in Chicago and Northern Virginia. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jun 11 10:25:59 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 11 08:43:31 2021. In other words, Moses believed that the needs of the many outweighed the needs of the few. Even though there was also a lot of times when the opposite was true. But what you describe is even worse. IDGAF about Point O’Woods. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jun 11 10:27:54 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by Sand Box John on Thu Jun 10 21:03:35 2021. I agree with you, but this isn’t a problem with electric cars. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 11 10:32:42 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jun 11 10:25:59 2021. Not building an East Bronx IND for 200,000 for a Shore Pkwy where hardly anyone lived is not exceeding needs of the few."Need" to go to Montauk without a traffic light is not a need. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jun 11 10:36:55 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 11 10:32:42 2021. Except by bringing up Fire Island, you’re not complaining that Moses was wrong by benefitting too few people, you’re complaining that he benefitted too many!Brooklyn has too few highways as it is. Without the Belt it would have been significantly worse. The East Bronx IND was comparatively less important. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 11 10:54:33 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jun 11 10:36:55 2021. I am complaining that he equated the need (when there was in fact no need) of a fast drive to the Hamptons that has since been accomplished by Sunrise Hwy with that of decimating 2 dozen communities on a barrier island. There is also the LIRR. He simply pitted automobile access Hamptons against decimating Fire Island residents and tourism when there was no purpose for doing so.When the Shore Pkwy was built, cars were not important. East Bronx was. That was not forward thinking because East Bronx is still under-served by public transit, only now being solved by a commuter railroad service. Never did he propose a transit project. Ask Atlanta and Houston how building 10 and 20 lane highways has helped their congestion. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by Displaced Angeleno on Fri Jun 11 11:59:13 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by Sand Box John on Thu Jun 10 21:03:35 2021. You're neglecting to consider how projects that disincentivize driving, say by making trips by car longer and trips by other modes faster, safer, more convenient, etc. will supress driving demand.By your logic, any urban speed limit below the speeds of peak fuel economy (~55mph) is harmful, but I doubt you'd support increasing speed limits on New York City streets to 55mph. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Jun 11 12:02:27 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jun 11 10:27:54 2021. And electric cars will catch on most quickly in urban areas.I think pollution is a bogus argument. My main objection to too many bicycle lanes is that they increase total travel time because they disadvantage bus passengers more than they advantage bicyclists. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jun 11 12:27:06 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jun 11 10:20:00 2021. No one is debating that he wasn't against transit. But some feel that if not for Moses the entire IND Second System would have been built which just isn't true. |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jun 11 12:31:15 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 11 10:32:42 2021. So should he have waited until the area was heavily populated before he built Shore Parkway? Of course not. Then you would have what happened in the Cross Bronx. He built it at the right time so there was minimal displacement. Without Shore Parkway, it would be totally impossible to get anywhere in Brooklyn. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 11 12:40:54 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jun 11 12:31:15 2021. Since he had no plan to subsequently extend service to the East Bronx, yes. Because of that, they have endured decades of trolley cars and bus shleps west to a subway to commute. The Dyre Avenue line was throwning a bone at them after the damage was done.You can always stack one project verses another that should not compared. The fact is, money was there specifically for East Bronx IND, needed right then and there, and it was yanked away because Moses only thought of moving cars, not people, because only 20 years later it would populate. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jun 11 12:41:24 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jun 11 12:31:15 2021. Excellent point. People complain about highways cutting though developed areas and apparently also complain about highways being built through undeveloped areas. It does not make sense. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jun 11 12:41:44 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by Displaced Angeleno on Fri Jun 11 11:59:13 2021. Driving demand is only suppressed when there are suitable alternatives. A bike is not a suitable alternative for many for most trips. Car service is too expensive for most. So the only real alternative is improved mass transit. But new lines are too expensive and no one wants to build them. So the only choice left is to improve bus service.Mostly that means more frequent service. But no one wants to provide that because it costs money and during off hours when many choose to drive, it is very inefficient to provide frequent bus service. So your idea of suppressing driving demand is nonsense. And your ridiculous example of a 55 mph speed limit on city streets is well just ridiculous because city streets were not meant for that speed. But arterials were designed for 35 and 40 mph, not 25 mph as de Bozo made them. Equally ridiculous is rebuilding a highway at 70 mph design speed, but only allow 50 mph so you can summons those who are driving safely just to raise revenue. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 11 12:44:05 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jun 11 12:27:06 2021. But some of it would have been.He also caused massive disinvestment in what they had causing the service to rapidly deteriorate through the 1960's until it was about to collapse in the 1970's. MTA had to be created to get rid of him and his autocracy. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by mta t on Fri Jun 11 13:49:59 2021, in response to Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jun 10 14:21:34 2021. The mighty Helen T Gigante |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by mta t on Fri Jun 11 13:53:52 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by AlM on Fri Jun 11 12:02:27 2021. Cars park in the bike lanes anyway |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Fri Jun 11 19:31:06 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jun 11 12:41:44 2021. Good post, but wanted to say a quick thought on that “off hours” comment. Off hours simply don’t exist anymore in public transit, the 9-5 hustle is all but dead these days with shift work becoming the new norm, especially as jobs in the retail sector continue to grow and automation continues to replace many traditional office jobs.Suffolk Transit is in the middle of a very ambitious redesign of their system right now, and the redesign is being based off of the needs of shift workers traveling during the middle of the day, not your 9-5 commuters of yesterday. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Fri Jun 11 19:32:41 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by AlM on Fri Jun 11 12:02:27 2021. That’s where dedicated busways come into play. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jun 11 19:52:37 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by Sand Box John on Fri Jun 11 09:31:15 2021. Some of us don't drive on account of low vision. I favor transit because that is essentially my only option. As to speed limits, it is my observation that as the pandemic has worn on, drivers have generally become more agressive. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Fri Jun 11 19:58:53 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 11 10:32:42 2021. Agreed, even to this day only 45% of New Yorkers have access to a personal vehicle, and that’s including Staten Island, so it’s hard to categorize public transit users as being in the minority. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Jun 12 02:50:01 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jun 10 18:40:53 2021. I don’t see coordination during rush hours and middays being too much of a problem, since the service at those times is frequent enough. The problem is late PMs and midnights when better coordination is needed. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Jun 12 02:54:29 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jun 11 10:20:00 2021. Since you brought up Chicago, various info I have from Chicago mentions that the city has what they call a “Department of Subways and Superhighways” that has the job of coordinating construction of both new rapid transit lines as well as highways so that projects like the Congress, and Dan Ryan expressways with rapid transit in the median were able to be built. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Jun 12 06:42:27 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by randyo on Sat Jun 12 02:54:29 2021. http://www.shore-line.org/images/Dispatch11_lg.pngI just got it and started to read it. Moses did just the opposite - Van Wyck got built without a median to make sure the IND never got a branch onto it, even though the junction was built and now used for Archer subway. Pitting then-current needs of Bronx (with "those" people, without cars) against a highway need in Brooklyn that was 20 years into the future was a false choice. He was out to kill transit projects, any excuse would do. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Sat Jun 12 07:10:41 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jun 11 19:52:37 2021. Some of us don't drive on account of low vision. I favor transit because that is essentially my only option. As to speed limits, it is my observation that as the pandemic has worn on, drivers have generally become more agressive.More like relaxed because of the lower volume traffic that allows them to drive faster, The most resent run of the Cannonball was in May of 2020 at the height of lockdown. The time was 25:39. The average speed between the Red Ball Garage in New York City to the Portofino Hotel in Redondo Beach was 110 MPH. Two other team did it in 25:55 and 26:38 The pre pandemic record was 27:25. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by Allen45 on Sat Jun 12 09:46:27 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jun 10 23:11:40 2021. The anti car crowd are shills for real estate developers. Less cars, force everyone to ride bikes, more housing that can be built. More housing needs to be built to accommodate all those oligarchs and shady characters who want to park their wealth in NYC real estate in sky castles. Once we get to a point car usage is reduced, the next step is to privatize public streets and give them away to real estate developers/predatory landlords. Legitimate needs to keep streets safe and kids safe are being co opted by predatory real estate developers who want more gentrificaiton. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Jun 12 13:22:44 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by Sand Box John on Sat Jun 12 07:10:41 2021. Actually, where I live traffic is pretty much as pre covid. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by Jsun21 on Sat Jun 12 14:02:28 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Jun 12 13:22:44 2021. Indeed, My record is Jamaica to Midtown in about 25 minutes last April. registered 2hrs by a year later. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Jun 12 14:39:30 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by Osmosis Jones on Fri Jun 11 19:32:41 2021. I really can’t see anywhere in NYC where you need a dedicated busway. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Jun 12 14:41:54 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Jun 12 13:22:44 2021. I see more traffic than ever before. The afternoon rush seems to start at 3PM. |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Jun 12 14:43:49 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 11 12:44:05 2021. I never heard that he was responsible for the disinvestment. They just didn’t want to raise the 15 cent fare, so ther was no money for maintenance. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Jun 12 15:35:25 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by randyo on Sat Jun 12 02:54:29 2021. No to mention the Kennedy Expressway. |
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Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Sat Jun 12 16:32:44 2021, in response to Re: Anti-car democrats are a road hazard, posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Jun 12 14:39:30 2021. The objective is to reduce pollution, reduce traffic congestion, and improve public safety by diverting people from their cars to bicycles and public transportation. Getting rid of bike lanes, and making streets more vehicle-friendly again (streets that in many cases were originally designed to only accommodate pedestrians, bicycles, and streetcars I might add), impedes that objective, so a busway would be the logical solution in this case for the issue of bike lanes slowing down buses.If the effect that bike lanes have on bus speed isn't being overstated, then it sounds like we're at a somewhat obstinate impasse. |
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