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| Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket (1569202) | |
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| (1569202) | |
Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Mon Feb 22 18:06:53 2021 End $75.00 fine |
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Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Feb 22 19:43:53 2021, in response to Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by TransitChuckG on Mon Feb 22 18:06:53 2021. I once validated a ticket on the Newark Light Rail but the stamp was so pale it was bordering on unreadable to invisible. |
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| (1569224) | |
Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 22 19:58:48 2021, in response to Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by TransitChuckG on Mon Feb 22 18:06:53 2021. I don't like it. It means sale of pre-validated tickets only, so no more buying a few at a time for future use. Major inconvenience for the very few who forgot to validate. Let them off with a smaller fine or waive first offense. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Feb 22 20:47:41 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 22 19:58:48 2021. IAWTP. I always used to buy spare tickets. |
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Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Feb 23 07:28:28 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 22 19:58:48 2021. I'd suggest on-board validation as occurs widespread around the world (and now it seems even with MTA's SBS services as using OMNY you tap-in on board), but that still doesn't stop someone from trying to play the game of never validating unless they see an inspector coming toward them.My guess is NJT would be among the last of agencies to offer on-board validation. |
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| (1569287) | |
Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Tue Feb 23 12:44:17 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Feb 22 20:47:41 2021. If there is a problem with confusion they should make a pre-validated ticket the default and require extra steps for ppl who really want a blank ticket. This is entirely a human factors user interface problem. |
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| (1569322) | |
Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by VictorM on Tue Feb 23 15:56:09 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by Jersey Mike on Tue Feb 23 12:44:17 2021. I agree, but I think they should make pre-validate the default if they buy only one ticket, and make blank ticket the default if they buy more than one. |
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Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by The Silence on Tue Feb 23 17:40:17 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 22 19:58:48 2021. The solution, if one is dead set on sticking with paper tickets, is to have both from the same machine, with a "travel now' or 'Travel later" option on the screen and a validator only needed for the "travel later" tickets.I mean the real answer is to switch to a smart solution, but I know how well some people deal with those. |
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| (1569350) | |
Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Feb 23 18:29:16 2021, in response to Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by TransitChuckG on Mon Feb 22 18:06:53 2021. If you are going from Walter Rand in Camden to Trenton on the River Line, and you validate your ticket just as the train is entering the station, it will still expire before you reach Trenton. I always thought that was a shady little trap, since fare inspectors could catch you anywhere north of Roebling and fine you for an expired ticket. There just isn't enough time allotted by the validator to make the full trip. |
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| (1569352) | |
Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Feb 23 18:54:26 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Feb 23 18:29:16 2021. They are notorious for getting on the at the train shed just south of the Trenton train station. |
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| (1569361) | |
Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by VictorM on Tue Feb 23 21:27:01 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Feb 23 18:29:16 2021. The time limit for the River Line is 75 minutes, so it would cover the entire line from not only Walter Rand but even from the Entertainment Center. The time limit for HBLR and Newark LR is 60 minutes, which more than covers those lines. |
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| (1569362) | |
Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by BusMgr on Tue Feb 23 21:44:13 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Feb 23 18:29:16 2021. The obvious answer is to establish policy that a ticket is valid for a specified number of minutes from the time it is cancelled plus the scheduled running time from the place of ticket cancellation to the point of inspection. |
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| (1569363) | |
Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by VictorM on Tue Feb 23 21:49:56 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by BusMgr on Tue Feb 23 21:44:13 2021. But where is the place of ticket cancellation? |
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| (1569372) | |
Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Tue Feb 23 22:54:29 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by VictorM on Tue Feb 23 21:27:01 2021. When the validation scheme started the validation time was 90 minutes for all routes. They reduced it because some people were using it to round trip. IMO if you could actually squeeze your entire trip to Newport Mall or downtown Newark into 90 minutes, the discount is deserved... |
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Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Feb 24 03:51:51 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by VictorM on Tue Feb 23 21:27:01 2021. When I ride the River Line between Walter Rand and Trenton, the validator never allows me enough time to complete the trip. It expires about 1h5m after I stamp it, while the timetable is 1h15m to travel between those two stations. The next time I make this trip, I will record using the validator on video, and pan up to the station annunciator to show the actual time. Then I'll show the timetable. You'll clearly see what I mean. |
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| (1569403) | |
Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Feb 24 06:39:09 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by BusMgr on Tue Feb 23 21:44:13 2021. Validator does not know where you are going. |
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| (1569433) | |
Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by VictorM on Wed Feb 24 11:34:46 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Feb 24 03:51:51 2021. NT Transit's official site states the River Line has a 75 (not 65) minute validation time limit.The timetable shows 59 minutes between Walter Rand and Trenton. I would contact NJT about the discrepancies. |
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| (1569441) | |
Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Feb 24 13:27:41 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by VictorM on Wed Feb 24 11:34:46 2021. What NJT "officially" says and what the validator actually gives you, are two different things. I will make the discrepancy known after my next River Line trip, when I will document this. |
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Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by VictorM on Wed Feb 24 13:38:50 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Feb 24 13:27:41 2021. Thanks. Good luck. |
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| (1569447) | |
Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Feb 24 14:08:46 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Tue Feb 23 22:54:29 2021. That should be unnecessary since the point of validation is specified on the ticket and an inspector can easily figure out whether the direction of travel is incorrect. |
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| (1569465) | |
Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Feb 24 15:46:58 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Feb 24 14:08:46 2021. I had an interesting experience a few years ago on the Newark Light rail. I validated my ticket a Penn sta Newark and the ink was so pale it was virtually unreadable although you could tell it was there. I took a ride to Broad St where there was an inspector checking tickets. From the other end of the 2 car unit I was on, he asked to see my ticket which I showed him and he OKd it. Now he was s far away that he had no way of knowing whether it was actually valid or not, but I imagine that from my willingness to show it immediately he assumed it was OK and didn’t check further. I rode back to Penn where I changed for the car to Bellville and revalidated the ticket and the new time was a lot darker than the original so that if I were challenge again it would have looked completely legit. |
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Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Wed Feb 24 17:09:55 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by randyo on Wed Feb 24 15:46:58 2021. Great story. I had a lot hard to read tickets on the NJT RiverLine. I was never checked by an inspector., but I was legal all the time. |
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| (1569508) | |
Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 25 00:48:05 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by randyo on Wed Feb 24 15:46:58 2021. The way the inspector “checked” my ticket it was more like going through the motions in case his supervisor asked. |
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| (1569519) | |
Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 25 07:02:18 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by randyo on Thu Feb 25 00:48:05 2021. They may have a secret quota to collect on fines to justify their budgets. |
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| (1569582) | |
Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 25 17:16:15 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 25 07:02:18 2021. That too. |
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Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by BusMgr on Thu Feb 25 23:55:33 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by VictorM on Tue Feb 23 21:49:56 2021. The place of ticket cancellation is wherever it is where that the passenger cancelled the ticket and thereafter first boarded a car. |
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Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by BusMgr on Thu Feb 25 23:58:34 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by Joe V on Wed Feb 24 06:39:09 2021. It does not matter that the ticket cancellation device is mechanical and does not "know" the destination of the passenger. It is relevant only when the ticket is checked by a living person who then simple adds to the time of cancellation the number of specified minutes and the scheduled running time from the point of cancellation to the ticket inspection point. |
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| (1569610) | |
Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by VictorM on Fri Feb 26 02:23:34 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by BusMgr on Thu Feb 25 23:55:33 2021. Passengers on NJT Light Rail don't "cancel" tickets, they validate them with the origin station and cancellation time printed on the ticket. Is that what you mean by cancellation place? |
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| (1569623) | |
Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Feb 26 08:45:21 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by BusMgr on Thu Feb 25 23:58:34 2021. The scheduled running time has nothing to do with it. The ticket is validated and good for 75 minutes, period. If you waited 25 minutes for the train, and you are more than 50 minutes into the trip when the inspector comes, you could be in trouble. |
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Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by BusMgr on Fri Feb 26 16:07:59 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by VictorM on Fri Feb 26 02:23:34 2021. Semantics. Same thing. |
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Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by BusMgr on Fri Feb 26 16:15:13 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by Joe V on Fri Feb 26 08:45:21 2021. You're describing the present practice, which some have said is problematic (i.e., the period of ticket validity expiring too soon after its cancellation to permit completion of a journey). What I have provided here is what I believe to be a suggested change in policy that would most simple in resolving the foregoing problem. That the suggestion is different from the present practice is precisely the point. There may be other problems with my suggestion, which could be minor details readily addressed, substantial ones that are incurably fatal, or somewhere in-between . . . those are the types problems that are appropriate to be raised in response to a suggestion, not the suggestion is different from present practice. |
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| (1569673) | |
Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Feb 26 17:03:33 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by BusMgr on Fri Feb 26 16:15:13 2021. Running time to destination is not something that goes on the ticket, that can be deciphered by a fast glance by an inspector without the passenger haggling. |
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Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Feb 27 02:06:39 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by Joe V on Fri Feb 26 08:45:21 2021. That’s the same problem that the NYCT Metrocards have when transferring from the subway to a bus. If I recall, there os a 2 hour window between the time the card is validate and the free transfer to the bus expires. Now if passenger swipes his Metrocard around midnight at let’s say Times Sq which starts the clock ticking and just misses a train. Now he has already lost 20 min waiting for the next train assuming it’s even on time. Now the train comes and eventually gets to Flatbush Ave where the passenger has to change for a bus. Now the headway on the B41 is 30 min, but since there are 2 branches, the headway to each branch i1 a full hour. Now if that passenger had just missed a bus, even if the 30 min headway meets his needs, the rest of the window will be eaten up by the time the bus arrives making the transfer useless. Now if I recall, under the WMATA fare structure, the window for a bus transfer starts when the passenger EXITS the Metro which allows waiting time to be taken into account. When I bright this up to the senior director of service planning years ago he just responded that it was “good enough” for most passengers. Well, "good enough” is NOT good enough especially since it may disenfranchise a number of passengers and it shouldn’t be too difficult for the agency to provide an enabler so that passsngers can validate a bus transfer upon exiting the property. |
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Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Sat Feb 27 04:08:17 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by randyo on Sat Feb 27 02:06:39 2021. Thank you, randyo |
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Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by BusMgr on Sat Feb 27 15:52:39 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by Joe V on Fri Feb 26 17:03:33 2021. That the running time to destination (or more precisely, the point of ticket inspection) is not printed on the ticket is irrelevant. All that is required to be printed on the ticket is the point of its cancellation. Scheduled running times are available between all stations, and all that requires look-up is the scheduled running time between the station at which the ticket was cancelled and the station at which the ticket is being inspected. What is the difficulty with that? |
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Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by BusMgr on Sat Feb 27 15:59:38 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by randyo on Sat Feb 27 02:06:39 2021. "Good enough" shows bureaucratic indifference. In our society, we expect fairness not for just the majority but also for minorities. The person to whom you spoke is lazy, arrogant, and ought not be in a position with policy-making authority. |
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Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 27 19:38:58 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by BusMgr on Sat Feb 27 15:52:39 2021. Inspectors are railroad conductors. They will inspect for a time stamp and add 75 minutes, period, and hand out fines. They are not going to determine each passenger's itinerary and read a timetable. |
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Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 27 19:43:22 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 27 19:38:58 2021. I meant to say they are NOT RR conductors. |
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Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by VictorM on Sat Feb 27 19:50:15 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 27 19:38:58 2021. I think it's the expiration time that's stamped on the ticket. |
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Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Feb 28 02:45:21 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by BusMgr on Sat Feb 27 15:59:38 2021. I agree, but that individual was one of the suits the MTA transferred to the NYCT from MSBA (MTA’s Nassau bus division) and who shouldn’t have been making policy affecting NY City residents in the first place. |
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Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by BusMgr on Mon Mar 1 03:31:25 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 27 19:38:58 2021. There's no need to ascertain an individual's itinerary, nor read a timetable. There is (or ought to be, or can be easily devised) a matrix showing scheduled running times between all stations. It is no more complicated than the distance matrix on many highway maps, and the fare matrix used by many rapid transit and commuter railroad systems. Yhe sample chart below, used by BART in Oakland, California, shows both fares and scheduled running times. An elementary school child can use such matrix. In many, if not most, cases, the inspecting person will know the approximate scheduled running time, and only when uncertain or when close would the actual matrix require review. If an NJT fare inspection person is less capable than a child, then that person ought to be fired.
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Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by BusMgr on Mon Mar 1 03:31:31 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by randyo on Sun Feb 28 02:45:21 2021. There is a problem within the MTA of it simply transferring around less-than-capable people, rather than letting them go. One reason why its personnel costs always go up, never down. |
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Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Mar 1 08:46:36 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by BusMgr on Mon Mar 1 03:31:25 2021. A fare inspector is not going to pull that out. It's a glance at a timestamp, and they move on. They are not ticket clerks or RR conductors. |
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Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Mar 1 16:20:46 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by Joe V on Mon Mar 1 08:46:36 2021. But even an inspector has to have enough knowledge to know what to inspect. |
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Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by BusMgr on Mon Mar 1 16:28:54 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by Joe V on Mon Mar 1 08:46:36 2021. The job of the people who inspect tickets is to inspect tickets, not to "move on" with a make-work job. As opposed to a bus driver or a one-man streetcar, where the time to inspect fares competes with the time to operate the vehicle, here the primary job of a ticket inspector is to inspect tickets. So long as the person doing the job has an elementary school education, it is not very difficult. |
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Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Mar 1 17:20:30 2021, in response to Re: Bill would end fines for NJT riders who forgot to stamp their ticket, posted by BusMgr on Mon Mar 1 16:28:54 2021. That's right. Inspect tickets, not look at time and fare charts and make judgement calls. |
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