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| Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? (1541614) | |
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Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Wed Mar 25 23:41:21 2020, in response to Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by Mitch45 on Wed Mar 25 23:25:07 2020. 4 trains still do a "long relay" on that track. It won't go all the way to the bumping block but the train will come outdoors for a few cars. |
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| (1541616) | |
Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Wed Mar 25 23:45:33 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Mar 25 23:41:21 2020. If the trains went all the way to the block I'm sure the track wouldn't be so overgrown. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (1541618) | |
Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Mar 25 23:52:43 2020, in response to Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by Mitch45 on Wed Mar 25 23:25:07 2020. It was originally intended to be a middle tk all the way to N/Lts but it never got extended so it remains just a long relay tk for Utica short turns. |
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| (1541619) | |
Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Thu Mar 26 02:42:04 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by Peter Rosa on Wed Mar 25 23:45:33 2020. It looks like just enough train traffic goes over to keep the grass at that height or it would be much taller. |
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| (1541620) | |
Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Thu Mar 26 04:19:45 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Mar 25 23:41:21 2020. Does the 4 run above the 3 at this location ? Is that why the middle track runs upward while the local track runs downward as the camera approaches the tunnel?It sure seems like the concrete viaduct was meant to bring upper level trains onto the elevated structure and run express if a middle track was ever installed. |
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| (1541625) | |
Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Mar 26 08:43:16 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by Mitch45 on Thu Mar 26 04:19:45 2020. The Manhattan-bound train is on the lower level, so of course the local has to descend more. |
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| (1541626) | |
Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by Dan on Thu Mar 26 09:31:34 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by randyo on Wed Mar 25 23:52:43 2020. Were any of the stations on the Livonia Avenue elevated built as island platform express stations? |
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| (1541636) | |
Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Thu Mar 26 11:14:30 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by Mitch45 on Thu Mar 26 04:19:45 2020. This may enlighten youYou'll have to scroll down some to see the Eastern Parkway/Livonia detail. |
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| (1541639) | |
Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Mar 26 11:26:03 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by Dan on Thu Mar 26 09:31:34 2020. No. |
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| (1541648) | |
Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by Bob Andersen on Thu Mar 26 13:53:52 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Mar 26 11:26:03 2020. Seems to be similar to the Jamaica El from Cypress Hills St. to 168th St. (when it used to go that far). |
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| (1541650) | |
Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Thu Mar 26 14:01:52 2020, in response to Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by Mitch45 on Wed Mar 25 23:25:07 2020. Here's a little more information about that center track. Tuscarora Journal - May 4, 1965 - The Book of Wrecks Brooklyn, New York New York City Transit Authority IRT Division A work crane was pushed through the bumping block at the end of the center track of the Livonia Avenue Line just east of the portal and fell to the street. One man was killed and several were injured. The crane was 20149 x IRT 102. The remaining cars were Lo-V Work Motors 20376 x 5496, 20251 x 5475, 20273 x 4986, 20380 x 5446, 20294 x 5600, 20273 x 4986 and Flat Car S - 75. Lo-V Motor 5600 is now on the roster of the Trolley Museum of New York at Kingston. Source: ERA New York Division Bulletin June 1965 Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1541652) | |
Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Mar 26 14:19:09 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by Bob Andersen on Thu Mar 26 13:53:52 2020. randyo has often posted that 169th had a wooden platform so that it could be more easily demolished as part of any eastward extension, and the BMT had plans to extend both the Jamaica and Liberty els to an undetermined common eastern terminal.What I wonder is whether there were ever plans to extend the Livonia El eastward into Queens. An extension that should have been done and sadly wasn't is an extension of the 3 into what is now the Gateway Center. It can still be done, but it would have been better before they built buildings as they could have built the extension midblock with sound walls that would have mitigated the impact on the new residents of the development. |
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| (1541653) | |
[PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Mar 26 14:25:01 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Thu Mar 26 14:01:52 2020.  
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| (1541655) | |
Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Mar 26 14:39:28 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Mar 26 11:26:03 2020. What about New Lots? |
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| (1541656) | |
Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Mar 26 14:43:58 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Mar 26 14:19:09 2020. The Livonia El was intended to go farther east and just past the S/E of N/Lts station, provisions for the continuation of the structure are visible. The structure extension stubs curve slightly to the left (north) since Livonia Av ends at its junction with New Lots Av and New Lots is the avenue that continue farther east. |
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| (1541658) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Thu Mar 26 14:50:04 2020, in response to [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Mar 26 14:25:01 2020. Oh man.Hit the bumping block hard. It looks like the brought a train to portal to get personnel there. |
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| (1541659) | |
Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Thu Mar 26 14:54:24 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Thu Mar 26 11:14:30 2020. Yes, that does explain a lot.Is the tail track available to both 3 and 4 trains terminating at Utica Avenue or only the 3? Guess it isn’t used much, based on the level of the grass. |
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| (1541660) | |
Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Thu Mar 26 14:57:23 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Thu Mar 26 14:01:52 2020. So a relay train just sped up the track and hit the crane? |
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| (1541661) | |
Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Mar 26 15:06:19 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by Mitch45 on Thu Mar 26 14:54:24 2020. Both 3s and 4s can use that track to relay if needed and I remember years ago in the Lo-V days, seeing a Lo-V in Lex Av service actually right at the bumping block of that middle tk. |
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| (1541666) | |
Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Mar 26 15:27:00 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Mar 26 14:57:23 2020. That wouldn’t have been the case since GOs on el structures at the time were done middays between rush hours and also at that time, midday Lex Av service terminated at Atlantic Av and didn’t go all the way to Utica. |
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| (1541668) | |
Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Thu Mar 26 15:47:20 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by randyo on Thu Mar 26 14:43:58 2020. it was supposed to go to 76st,somewhere in queens[fact] |
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| (1541669) | |
Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Thu Mar 26 15:51:26 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by randyo on Thu Mar 26 15:27:00 2020. If there is a GO in effect then why did the train enter that track?My guess is it was relaying for some reason even though Atlantic is the terminal. My other guess is it was being used to pick up workers before or after a GO. If you look at the portal there is a train on the same track as the collision most likely as a shuttle for people responding to the incident. |
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| (1541675) | |
Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Mar 26 17:42:35 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by randyo on Thu Mar 26 14:43:58 2020. Was any route intended? New Lots to Dumont? |
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| (1541676) | |
Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Mar 26 17:43:43 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by randyo on Thu Mar 26 14:39:28 2020. I don’t think that counts. From my recollection the platform is not wide enough, so if a third track were added, the platform would have to be demolished and replaced with side platforms, or the tracks moved outward. |
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| (1541677) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Thu Mar 26 17:57:07 2020, in response to [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Mar 26 14:25:01 2020. This isn’t the same tunnel. The tunnel in the video had much taller portals. The portal in the picture was train-sized. Also , the lay up track in the video was on a raised concrete viaduct. The lay up track here is not. |
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| (1541678) | |
Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Mar 26 17:57:15 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Mar 26 15:51:26 2020. That was a work train that entered the track not a passenger train. |
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| (1541680) | |
Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Mar 26 18:00:47 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by TUNNELRAT on Thu Mar 26 15:47:20 2020. Correct, but that last time I looked at a street map of the area, it seem that there is some sort of hosing complex about a 1/2 mile east of N/Lts station at Fountain Av that would now prevent expansion of the line past that point. |
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| (1541682) | |
Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Mar 26 18:14:04 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Mar 26 17:43:43 2020. It is no narrower than any of the terminal stations on the Bronx IRT and they function just fine. |
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| (1541687) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Mar 26 19:17:57 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by Mitch45 on Thu Mar 26 17:57:07 2020. This isn’t the same tunnel. The tunnel in the video had much taller portals. The portal in the picture was train-sized. Also , the lay up track in the video was on a raised concrete viaduct. The lay up track here is not.I viewed the video and this is the one and only portal on this part of the line. The city bound track is obscured in the black & white photo. That track dips down to a lower lever than the center and New Lots bound tracks. Bill Newkirk |
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| (1541694) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Mar 26 20:08:53 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by Mitch45 on Thu Mar 26 17:57:07 2020. This is absolutely the same tunnel. There’s no doubt about it. |
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| (1541696) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Mar 26 20:12:37 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Mar 26 19:17:57 2020. IAWTP. |
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| (1541711) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by Michael549 on Fri Mar 27 00:30:16 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Mar 26 19:17:57 2020. From a previous message:"That track dips down to a lower lever than the center and New Lots bound tracks." The Manhattan bound local #3 track has to "dip down" to the lower level in order to move under the out-bound Brooklyn-bound #3 track to New Lots Avenue - so that it is position for the Utica Avenue station. Once that Manhattan bound local #3 track is in position the "long middle track" referenced above in this message stream dips down to the lower level and hands off a track switch to both the Manhattan bound local #3 track and the Manhattan bound express #4 track. On the lower level there is a "side track" beyond the station that is simply used to store express trains, and becomes the Manhattan bound express track. On the upper New Lots Avenue bound level the "long middle track" as well as a "side track" beyond the station are the tracks that #4 and #5 trains terminate and relay upon to return to the Utica Avenue station for their Manhattan and Bronx bound trips. This "side track" is however shorter than the "long middle track" being discussed. Fun Facts - a) There was talk of a Utica Avenue subway line in the 1920's when these facilities was built. The tracks that would have serviced the Utica Avenue IRT subway would have "come off" of the local tracks on both levels - that is one reason why the Utica Avenue station platforms and exit do not actually exist at the intersection of Utica Avenue and Eastern Parkway. The station platforms were placed in a more southern direction to allow enough room for the train tracks to make the curve on to Utica Avenue. (This I am told is the same reason for the station placement at the old 168th Street Terminal in Jamaica, Queens on the J-line.) Of course the Utica Avenue line was never built, but the bulk-head features exist within the subway tunnels just north of the platforms. b) There was talk of IRT trains continuing under Eastern Parkway past the Utica Avenue station, while a branch would travel to New Lots Avenue as it does today. The "side tracks" - that become the Eastern Parkway express tracks - in both directions - mentioned above seems to be the tracks that would have continued under Eastern Parkway if that plan actually came into existence - but it did not. Hope this helps. Mike |
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| (1541718) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 27 02:24:03 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by Michael549 on Fri Mar 27 00:30:16 2020. There are 3 stations in Queens that I am aware of that actually end about a half a block before the stations for which they are named: Ditmars Blvd, Lefferts Blvd and 168/Jamaica which no longer exists. Ditmars was situated as it was because there were plans to have the el structure turn right and proceed east along Ditmars to some unspecified location. Jamaica and Lefferts were supposed to remain on their respective avenues to some point a bit farther east of 168 st where they were supposed to somehow meet in a large Jamaica terminal although I don’t have any details about how this was supposed to be accomplished. Liberty Av comes very close to Jamaica Ave around 176 St so it’s possible that some sort of a Park Row like terminal might have been built there to serve both lines. |
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Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 27 02:25:25 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by randyo on Thu Mar 26 18:00:47 2020. That should be HOUSING complex. |
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| (1541722) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Fri Mar 27 02:40:37 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Mar 26 19:17:57 2020. Then how do you explain the absence of the concrete viaduct and the much larger portals? |
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| (1541724) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Mar 27 02:46:25 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by randyo on Fri Mar 27 02:24:03 2020. Jamaica and Lefferts were supposed to remain on their respective avenues to some point a bit farther east of 168 st where they were supposed to somehow meet in a large Jamaica terminal although I don’t have any details about how this was supposed to be accomplished. Liberty Av comes very close to Jamaica Ave around 176 St so it’s possible that some sort of a Park Row like terminal might have been built there to serve both lines.Never heard that but it would have been amazing. I wonder how much real estate development in those areas was inspired by subway lines extending, or even worse, real estate companies not wanting subway service. |
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| (1541735) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Mar 27 09:07:18 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Mar 27 02:46:25 2020. c`mon now randy,i,ve posted HERE several times on the proposed fulton/jamaica EL extensions IN detail.libert ave does not come close to jamaica ave,its apx.2/3 a mile away. |
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Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Mar 27 10:52:48 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Thu Mar 26 11:14:30 2020. Doesn't it make more sense to terminate the #3 at Utica and run the #4 to New Lots 24/7? |
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Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Fri Mar 27 11:17:05 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Mar 27 10:52:48 2020. For passenger clarity, probably. What the MTA might not like would be the extra switching moves (when the 3 goes to Newlots, it's a straight-ahead move, also, when the 4 goes to Newlots, it's already on the local track (Track 1)).A 4 running express and going to Newlots would have to make a switching move east of the station (eastbound) and west of the station (westbound) (if I read the track map correctly) |
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| (1541756) | |
Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by murray1575 on Fri Mar 27 11:48:44 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by randyo on Thu Mar 26 15:06:19 2020. If I remember correctly a Lo-V work train hit that bumper block and sent one of the cars off the structure many years ago. |
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| (1541767) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Fri Mar 27 13:48:15 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Mar 26 20:08:53 2020. IAWTPApparently someone has never been to East New York. |
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| (1541770) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by VictorM on Fri Mar 27 14:26:30 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Mar 27 09:07:18 2020. Liberty Av and Jamaica Av are only 960 feet apart at 177 St. That's near where the two els would have met. |
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| (1541771) | |
Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by Michael549 on Fri Mar 27 14:36:36 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Fri Mar 27 11:17:05 2020. Again looking at the track diagram - terminating the #3 local at Utica Avenue, while allowing the #4 and #5 express trains to continue to New Lots Avenue would be a night-mare.Simply on the upper level - where most of the "action" takes place - an arriving #3 local would have to discharge passengers before allowing the train to "relay" upon either of the two layup tracks north of the station platforms. The ease of access to these two layup tracks is not the same. To make it simple - one of these layup tracks north of the station platforms will be called the "side track" and the other the "longer middle track." The most direct and easiest pathway is to the "longer middle track" - and then a dip downstairs to the Manhattan bound local track platform. There is a big track switch between the local and express tracks - the arriving now passenger-less #3 Utica Avenue local would have cross-over to the "side track" - then relay - in order to use the middle track ramp to dip downstairs to the Manhattan bound local track platform. The New Lots Express #4 and #5 trains on the upper level would have to use the big track switch between the local and express tracks to switch over the "local track" to continue onward to New Lots Avenue. There is no other place for this switch operation to occur. The problem is that these trains would have to travel over a section of track that #3 trains would have to travel over to access the "longer middle layup track." Two trains can not occupy the same track at the same time in the same exact area - hence bottle-necks of traffic. On the lower level - it is worse - as both the #3 locals and the #4 or #5 express trains would either to have share the same platform or constantly cross paths. So basically "following the tracks for the easiest path" is the best one here. Mike |
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| (1541772) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 27 14:45:26 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by VictorM on Fri Mar 27 14:26:30 2020. It looks even closer on the street map. |
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| (1541775) | |
Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 27 15:09:41 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by Michael549 on Fri Mar 27 14:36:36 2020. Since there are bellmouths for a proposed utica Av subway, I imagine it was planned that lcl trains would operate down Utica and exp trains would continue on to N/Lts in the even a Utica subway were ever completed. |
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| (1541776) | |
Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 27 15:10:58 2020, in response to Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by murray1575 on Fri Mar 27 11:48:44 2020. I believe that is the incident being referred to. |
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| (1541783) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by VictorM on Fri Mar 27 15:44:26 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by Mitch45 on Fri Mar 27 02:40:37 2020. If you look at the extreme upper right of the photo you can see the left edge of the portal for the Manhattan bound track. If the photo had been only a half inch wider it would have been obvious. If you carefully look down the right edge of the photo you can see the ramp where the Manhattan bound track starts to descend below the others. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Mar 27 15:51:23 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by randyo on Fri Mar 27 14:45:26 2020. so does europe. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT? |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Mar 27 15:52:29 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Mystery Middle Track on New Lots IRT?, posted by VictorM on Fri Mar 27 14:26:30 2020. connection was at 180 st |
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