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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 17 12:19:19 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Mon Feb 17 12:15:47 2020.

For the last couple of years and will go on indefinitely until Anderson/Gardner/Coscia blink.

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(1538514)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by AlM on Mon Feb 17 12:19:52 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Feb 17 12:13:52 2020.

So you're saying that funding for long distance Amtrak trains be transferred to intercity/long distance bus companies to cover their losses & let the long distance trains die?

No I did not say that.

I said that's the cheapest way to serve remote communities. I didn't say it should be done, and in fact I explicitly pointed that out in one post.




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(1538515)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by AlM on Mon Feb 17 12:20:43 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 17 12:17:44 2020.

Where on earth are you getting that idea from? Are you actually even reading my posts?




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(1538516)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 17 12:21:29 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Mon Feb 17 12:08:06 2020.

Obama's stimulus never made any which claims of what it would do for the Sunset Ltd or create new routes unless the states wanted it. Red states of Florida, Wisconsin, and Ohio governors sent the money back. They were re-sent to other states, like NY, VT, and ME.

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(1538517)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 17 12:29:36 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by AlM on Mon Feb 17 12:18:16 2020.

It' still a bus and non one wants to ride a bus.

Jefferson Lines replaced Greyhound from MSP to Spokane along I-94. It has also gone from 4 frequencies per day to 1 - 2 over 20 years. Amtrak is many miles north on US2, which never had bus service.

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(1538519)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by AlM on Mon Feb 17 13:34:36 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 17 12:29:36 2020.

It' still a bus and non one wants to ride a bus.

You do if you want to get from point A to point B and can't afford a plane or a car and there is no train.

Amtrak is many miles north on US2, which never had bus service.

Wow. I'm surprised that Wenatchee and Leavenworth have never had bus service even when there was no train service there.



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(1538520)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Mon Feb 17 13:44:37 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Feb 14 18:35:07 2020.

Then why make these threats in the first place? Why threaten to cut these routes if thereís no real chance of that happening?

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(1538521)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Feb 17 13:53:15 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Sun Feb 16 19:22:14 2020.

No, you're an idiot!

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(1538522)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Feb 17 13:54:00 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Fri Feb 14 18:59:51 2020.

No, you're an idiot!

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(1538523)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Feb 17 13:59:34 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Dave on Sun Feb 16 22:24:25 2020.

lol

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Feb 17 13:59:53 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Sun Feb 16 19:21:58 2020.

No, you're an idiot!

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(1538525)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Mon Feb 17 14:08:59 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Feb 17 13:53:15 2020.

YOU

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(1538526)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Mon Feb 17 14:09:03 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Feb 17 13:53:15 2020.

YOU

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(1538527)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Mon Feb 17 14:09:11 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Feb 17 13:54:00 2020.

YOU

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(1538528)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Mon Feb 17 14:09:41 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Feb 17 13:59:34 2020.

STFU

DAVEY FROM TEXASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS IS WRONG & YOU TOO

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(1538529)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Mon Feb 17 14:09:49 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Feb 17 13:59:53 2020.

YOU

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(1538530)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Mon Feb 17 14:13:53 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by AlM on Mon Feb 17 11:06:19 2020.

Self-propelled railcars arenít an option? Not necessarily Budd RDCs (and who knows how many of those are still left?).

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Feb 17 14:34:38 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Mon Feb 17 14:08:59 2020.

figures

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Easy on Mon Feb 17 14:52:23 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 16 18:52:55 2020.

I call BS that the LD trains have more passenger miles per day than the NEC, but even if they did itís a very unimpressive statistic considering that itís comparing over 20,000 miles of service to less than 500 miles. Passenger miles make sense when youíre comparing similar services and very little sense when youíre comparing such dissimilar services.

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Feb 17 15:07:37 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by AlM on Mon Feb 17 13:34:36 2020.

"You do if you want to get from point A to point B and can't afford a plane or a car and there is no train."

On this I'll agree with you. If there is absolutely, positively no other way to get from point A to Point B, and you absolutely, positively have to get there, people will be kicking & screaming, bitching and moaning all the way to the bus term.
But keeping it real here, we're a long way from that.

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(1538536)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by randyo on Mon Feb 17 15:18:26 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 17 12:17:44 2020.

They might since NE corridor trains from the northeast go directly to DC.

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(1538542)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by AlM on Mon Feb 17 16:31:47 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Feb 17 15:07:37 2020.

All I said was one little simple fact. Not sure why I'm getting all this argument about it.

I never recommended that long distance passenger service should be ended.



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(1538545)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 17 18:26:24 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Easy on Mon Feb 17 14:52:23 2020.

Passenger miles was on the monthly reports under Anderson pulled them.
There is nothing unimpressive at all about LD 15 trains being as productive in generating passenger miles as the NEC, which is even more heavily subsidized.

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(1538549)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Feb 17 19:10:20 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by AlM on Mon Feb 17 11:08:23 2020.

"It's cheaper to serve remote areas of the US with subsidized bus service than with subsidized train service. That is a fact, even though it isn't the only argument to be made for or against the continuation of long distance train service."

If this is the fact you speak of, your second sentence seems to be playing both sides of the fence & hedging your bets with your argument.


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(1538550)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by AlM on Mon Feb 17 19:25:49 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Feb 17 19:10:20 2020.

playing both sides of the fence

What fence are you talking about? I am not recommending the ending of long distance train service. I'm just noting that it's obviously cheaper to simply send a bus (or a few buses, if warranted by demand) instead of a train. Why do people keep arguing with this incredibly obvious item?





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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 17 19:57:37 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by AlM on Mon Feb 17 19:25:49 2020.

Because the bottom line would not improve. Costs would go down and 95% of ticket revenue would as well.

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(1538560)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by AlM on Mon Feb 17 20:14:42 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 17 19:57:37 2020.

That I doubt. A bus per day (if that is enough to meet demand) would cost way, way less than an Amtrak train per day. But at least now you're addressing my comment.




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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Steamdriven on Mon Feb 17 20:42:12 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by AlM on Mon Feb 17 19:25:49 2020.

Reality is offensive to personal attachments of all kinds.

I think we should outlaw lite beer and tomatoes that taste like cardboard. And frozen pizza. And obesity. And.....
Nope, can't always have what we want.

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(1538564)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Steamdriven on Mon Feb 17 20:59:49 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 16 19:01:09 2020.

Why not have the Eastern states subsidize the NEC instead of the Feds? The value of it taking (not enough) auto traffic off the road is worth millions, perhaps billions.


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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Feb 17 21:14:10 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Sun Feb 16 15:59:09 2020.

The biggest Amtrak hater was Reagan. He wanted to kill Amtrak outright.
He made a speech one day saying that the Govt could give every man, woman & child Amtrak passenger a plane ticket as opposed to taking Amtrak and save money.
Thankfully his plans were derailed (pun intended)

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(1538567)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Feb 17 21:33:33 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Steamdriven on Mon Feb 17 20:59:49 2020.

"The value of it taking (not enough) auto traffic off the road is worth millions, perhaps billions."

But the other side of that sword of less cars on the road is the loss of toll revenue & less $$$ coming in due to lower gas consumption and the coinciding hit on gas taxes at the pump. Some number crunching is in order to see who saves what.

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Dave on Mon Feb 17 22:16:41 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Mon Feb 17 12:15:25 2020.

LOL
ROFL

So the Senators and Congressmen and Congresswomen I listed are made up by Fox? They really don't exist?

Holy crap, are you dumb!

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Dave on Mon Feb 17 22:17:51 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Mon Feb 17 14:09:41 2020.

LOL
ROFL

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(1538575)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Feb 18 03:15:09 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by AlM on Mon Feb 17 19:25:49 2020.

Amen! Reading comprehension is a blessing that I take for granted I guess.

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Feb 18 03:17:13 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by AlM on Mon Feb 17 12:20:43 2020.

Lol!

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Feb 18 03:33:18 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Feb 16 20:28:36 2020.

One big reason the NEC does so well (besides the BosWash megalopolis itself) is that every mile of track on it, including the three branches, is owned by a government entity. The NEC, depending on where you are on it, belongs either to Amtrak, Metro-North, or the US Department of Transportation. Then there are usage fees Amtrak gets from the various commuter agencies running on its tracks (SEPTA, NJT, MARC, MBTA, MTA, CT Rail, SLE, VRE) plus the usual federal subsidy.

According to Amtrak's own report and a few sources I found, Amtrak's Northeast Corridor service makes a profit off of operating revenue alone, unless these sources aren't taking infrastructure costs into play.

To see why Amtrak's losses mount, hop on the Empire Builder train

How Amtrak Makes Money

Amtrak says growing demand makes case for US rail funding

monthly performance report march fy 2018 - Amtrak

The other part of the equation is its high demand. If the "feds were to fall on their heads one day and decided to stop subsidizing it", it wouldn't be long before the catenary went cold, and everything stopped running. That would be a serious economic problem for 30+ million people that would be felt right away.

Only a catastrophic terrorist or natural event would ever stop the Northeast Corridor from running. A private company like Brightliner would probably take over its operation before a lack of governmental funding would shut it down. It's a well-utilized and profitable rail line that is a too big of a key player in not only that region's, but the nation's economic health.

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(1538578)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Feb 18 04:02:38 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 17 06:51:35 2020.

There are many credible sources, including portion of roads the Bus would have taken that have signs stating no snow plow services for 12 hours per day, the area is so remote and little used.

Yeah, because it's not like trains don't face similar obstacles either.

REPEAT : 23 states / 46 Senators would be left with no service. They are not being asked to subsidized their interstate highways.
I am not going to do research and post URL's to disprove your stupid claims.


Why? Posting such URLs would be to your benefit. Surely you're able to find some sources to back up your brilliance and dispel my "stupid" claims, right?

REPEAT: The NEC gets $750 million in federal subsidies. It does not pay for itself. That is half Amtrak's appropriation.

Where did you get this number from? I can't find any sources to back this claim up. According to this page, only about a third of federal subsidies Amtrak receives goes towards the Northeast Corridor, and that money is mostly for Capital Expenses, with none going towards Operating Expenses.

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Feb 18 04:06:30 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Mon Feb 17 14:13:53 2020.

How would that decrease operating expenses, which is the main culprit here?

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Feb 18 04:13:28 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Feb 17 15:07:37 2020.

But keeping it real here, we're a long way from that.

I don't know about that, this isn't the first time that Amtrak's long-distance services have been put under scrutiny, stories like these are becoming a part of a worrisome pattern. It's a shame what automobile companies and the government itself have done to the public transportation in this country.

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by LuchAAA on Tue Feb 18 05:17:42 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Feb 18 03:17:13 2020.

Lol!

lo@lm!

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(1538591)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by AlM on Tue Feb 18 09:54:21 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Steamdriven on Mon Feb 17 20:42:12 2020.

What on earth are you talking about?


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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes?

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Feb 18 11:23:23 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Feb 17 21:33:33 2020.

Trucks get charged per axle in a lot of toll systems. The other side of that is the lower the tolls, the more truckers would be encouraged to use toll roads, thus the higher the revenue.

Besides, the less the road is used, the longer it lasts anyhow, and the less money needed for upkeep.

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(1538616)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Tue Feb 18 12:52:13 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Dave on Sun Feb 16 19:19:43 2020.

NO AND THE WANT TO CUT OF SOCIAL SECURITY TOO

WHY ARE YOU ALWAYS WRONG DAVEY FROM TEXASSSSSSSSS ????



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(1538623)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Dave on Tue Feb 18 14:02:45 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Tue Feb 18 12:52:13 2020.

LOL
ROFL



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(1538646)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Tue Feb 18 15:40:25 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Dave on Tue Feb 18 14:02:45 2020.

NO RESPONSE FROM A TOTAL IDIOT

YOU

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(1538655)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Tue Feb 18 16:27:25 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Dave on Tue Feb 18 14:02:45 2020.

TRUMPANZEE

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Joe V on Tue Feb 18 17:36:05 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Feb 18 03:33:18 2020.

Amtrak's accounting is bogus

https://www.railpassengers.org/site/assets/files/7353/amtraks_route_accounting_-_fatally_flawed.pdf

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(1538663)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Joe V on Tue Feb 18 17:39:37 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Feb 18 04:02:38 2020.

Stuck in snow is quite a bit different than sliding off the road rolling off the road and killing people.

Look some more. Amtrak's annual subsidy is divided among various accounts. The NEC gets $750 million, but it is called "capital". Most of what they called capital is operating expenses, like track and catenary maintenance.

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(1538664)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Joe V on Tue Feb 18 17:41:32 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Feb 18 04:13:28 2020.

The highway trust fund is also functionally bankrupt, and it is not responsible for paying many of its expense besides.

https://www.enotrans.org/wp-content/uploads/HTF-Bailouts-thru-FAST.pdf?x43122

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Joe V on Tue Feb 18 17:43:12 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by AlM on Mon Feb 17 20:14:42 2020.

There is ZERO evidence that anyone off a discontinued train over the last 40 years in the USS or Canada resorts to taking a bus.

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