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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 16 18:44:44 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Feb 16 18:40:58 2020.

Greyhound - ridiculous proposal.

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(1538410)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by AlM on Sun Feb 16 18:45:14 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Feb 16 17:12:53 2020.

OK, maybe not. I just brought it up the cost and various people claimed it was nothing to do with Amtrak, and I disagreed. I can't claim that I know how big the cost is relative to the other costs of the train.



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(1538411)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by AlM on Sun Feb 16 18:47:04 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 16 18:44:44 2020.

If the goal is simply to make sure that a hundred or 200 places (I'm not doing the count) in the US have access to public transportation, the cheapest way is obviously to subsidize bus service to those places.



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(1538412)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Feb 16 18:52:02 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 16 18:44:44 2020.

I donít know what you have in mind, but itís surely cheaper than subsidizing air service to those cities.

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 16 18:52:55 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by AlM on Sun Feb 16 18:47:04 2020.

Not so obvious. Few people on those trains will ride buses. The 15 LD trains also produce as many passenger miles in a given day as the NEC.

We went through this last year with SW Chief Bus Bridge. It was deemed unworkable and dangerous.

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 16 18:53:57 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Feb 16 18:52:02 2020.

We are not talking about air service.

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Feb 16 18:57:05 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 16 18:52:55 2020.

Few people on those trains will ride buses.

Few of them ride the trains too.

The 15 LD trains also produce as many passenger miles in a given day as the NEC.

That's pretty unimpressive, I don't see how this supports your viewpoint.

It was deemed unworkable and dangerous.

By whom?

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 16 19:01:09 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Feb 16 18:57:05 2020.

A small fraction of people on those train will ride buses, which do not exist in any case.

Passenger miles is not an irrelevant metric.

If you have been too ignorant to follow the SW Chief issue over the past 2 years, that's your problem.

The NEC gets $750 million in federal subsidies. Throw 23 states off the map, it would get $0.

This is a VERY stupid argument you are picking.

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(1538418)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Feb 16 19:19:42 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 16 19:01:09 2020.

A small fraction of people on those train will ride buses, which do not exist in any case.

If few people ride the trains, and fewer would ride the buses, and there isn't enough political interest to improve the travel times and/or transportation infrastructure to these smaller cities, then perhaps there isn't any travel demand to these cities in the first place anymore and it's time to move on. If they want to keep their supposedly coveted rail service then they can ride it and/or fight for it, which thankfully a lot of these places are doing.

If you have been too ignorant to follow the SW Chief issue over the past 2 years, that's your problem.

Yeah okay, me and you both would be hard pressed to find any credible source to corroborate your notion that the bus bridge was "dangerous".

The NEC gets $750 million in federal subsidies. Throw 23 states off the map, it would get $0.

The Northeast Corridor pretty much pays for itself as well as some the long-distance losers, and connects some of the most populated cities in the United States with each other. Nothing would happen to it even if the feds were to fall on their heads one day and decided to stop subsidizing it.

This is a VERY stupid argument you are picking.

There is no argument, if rail service were to be cut to these cities, then subsidizing bus service or perhaps even Uber rides to these cities would be the cheapest replacement.

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Dave on Sun Feb 16 19:19:43 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Sun Feb 16 16:00:34 2020.

Hey numnutz, you were wrong about "all Republicans" wanting to unfund Amtrak. Protip: You're wrong again on this one, too.

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Dave on Sun Feb 16 19:20:12 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Sun Feb 16 15:59:28 2020.

Wrong again, Numnutz!

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Sun Feb 16 19:21:58 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Dave on Sun Feb 16 19:19:43 2020.

HEY IDIOT SINCE REEEEEEGAIN

YOUR HERO AND MAIN SQUEEZE THE REPUBLICANS HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DESTROY

AMTRAK

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Sun Feb 16 19:22:14 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Dave on Sun Feb 16 19:20:12 2020.

HEY IDIOT SINCE REEEEEEGAIN

YOUR HERO AND MAIN SQUEEZE THE REPUBLICANS HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DESTROY

AMTRAK

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Dave on Sun Feb 16 19:28:25 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Sun Feb 16 19:21:58 2020.

But they haven't, Numnutz! And all your lies about "all" Republicans doing so are false!

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Feb 16 19:36:13 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Feb 16 18:40:58 2020.

And where's Greyhound going to get the $$$ for all the new buses & drivers for the expanded service? Is Greyhound doing that well? Do they want the new business? Their still a private company with fuel, labor, maintenance & insurance costs unpredictable to put it mildly. What makes it a given that Greyhound would want the business that may or may not be good for the bottom line? They would still have the right of refusal for any new service.
If ( and I extremely doubt) that Greyhound is expected (or forced) to fill the void left by the demise of long distance Amtrak service, it wouldn't be long before before the hound comes begging at Uncle Sam's door with its bowl begging for a handout.

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Sun Feb 16 19:37:29 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Dave on Sun Feb 16 19:28:25 2020.

WE HEARD THIS DURING THE REEEEEE-GAIN YEARS TOO

EVEN THE BUSH

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Feb 16 19:41:15 2020, in response to Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Thu Feb 13 15:39:00 2020.

Funny enough, all of Amtrak's profitable routes that would benefit the most from this budget (except for the Carolinan) travel through states that voted for Hillary.

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Feb 16 19:47:12 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Feb 16 19:36:13 2020.

And where's Greyhound going to get the $$$ for all the new buses & drivers for the expanded service?... If ( and I extremely doubt) that Greyhound is expected (or forced) to fill the void left by the demise of long distance Amtrak service, it wouldn't be long before before the hound comes begging at Uncle Sam's door with its bowl begging for a handout.

From the same place where Amtrak gets it money, at a much lower cost to the government than Amtrak too. Interestingly enough, once Greyhound stopped service to a lot of smaller cities and handed off those services to smaller rural operators that are supported by government subsidies, Greyhound's profits increased, hmm...

What makes it a given that Greyhound would want the business that may or may not be good for the bottom line?

Any transportation carrier would do, Greyhound was just an example.

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(1538437)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Feb 16 20:03:12 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Feb 16 19:47:12 2020.

"From the same place where Amtrak gets it money...

Why would Greyhound, as a private company, want to be forced into a situation where it would have to be manipulated by the whims of politicians who control the purse strings?
They seemed to be doing all right w/o the need for any extra Amtrak business.


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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Sun Feb 16 20:08:47 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Feb 16 19:41:15 2020.

WELL

.......................................YEAH

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(1538439)

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Feb 16 20:28:36 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Feb 16 19:19:42 2020.

The Northeast Corridor pretty much pays for itself as well as some the long-distance losers, and connects some of the most populated cities in the United States with each other. Nothing would happen to it even if the feds were to fall on their heads one day and decided to stop subsidizing it.

One big reason the NEC does so well (besides the BosWash megalopolis itself) is that every mile of track on it, including the three branches, is owned by a government entity. The NEC, depending on where you are on it, belongs either to Amtrak, Metro-North, or the US Department of Transportation. Then there are usage fees Amtrak gets from the various commuter agencies running on its tracks (SEPTA, NJT, MARC, MBTA, MTA, CT Rail, SLE, VRE) plus the usual federal subsidy.

The other part of the equation is its high demand. If the "feds were to fall on their heads one day and decided to stop subsidizing it", it wouldn't be long before the catenary went cold, and everything stopped running. That would be a serious economic problem for 30+ million people that would be felt right away.

Think back to the period immediately post-9/11. Because nothing was flying, people jammed onto NEC trains like they were fleeing Godzilla. Nobody remembers it now, but every piece of rolling stock Amtrak could find that week, was put on to carry them. Without the NEC, the Northeast economy alone would have missed six days of activity, which on top of the huge, deep NYSE plunge on 9/17, would have put us in deep Depression territory. Just something to ponder.

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Dave on Sun Feb 16 20:51:59 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Sun Feb 16 19:37:29 2020.

But it never happened, did it? So stop lying!

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Sun Feb 16 20:56:22 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Dave on Sun Feb 16 20:51:59 2020.

IT WILL

TRUMP

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Dave on Sun Feb 16 22:23:15 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Sun Feb 16 20:56:22 2020.

LMAO! You're even stupider than I thought you were.

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Dave on Sun Feb 16 22:24:25 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Sun Feb 16 16:02:15 2020.

LMAO! You know less than nothing.

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Dave on Sun Feb 16 23:01:49 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Sun Feb 16 15:59:09 2020.

Tried by always failed, Numnutz. Don't let the facts hit you in the ass on the way out!

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 17 06:51:35 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Feb 16 19:19:42 2020.

There are many credible sources, including portion of roads the Bus would have taken that have signs stating no snow plow services for 12 hours per day, the area is so remote and little used.

REPEAT : 23 states / 46 Senators would be left with no service. They are not being asked to subsidized their interstate highways.
I am not going to do research and post URL's to disprove your stupid claims.

REPEAT: The NEC gets $750 million in federal subsidies. It does not pay for itself. That is half Amtrak's appropriation.

NOBODY takes Uber for 500 - 1,000 mile distances, which is the average distance that people ride LD trains. Greyhound is disappearing across the continent.

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 17 06:55:23 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Feb 16 19:47:12 2020.

When Amtrak routes have come off, Greyhound got ZERO of its passengers.

EXAMPLE: Pioneer discontinued. Greyhound had 3 frequencies. Today no Pioneer, and 1 Greyhound frequency.

Greyhound no longer runs between MSP and Spokane.

So much for Greyhound. Nobody is going to take a bus.

Greyhound has shut down all service across Canada west of Sudbury, ON.
They are dying like Sears/Kmart.

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 17 09:22:22 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Feb 16 19:41:15 2020.

Amtrak does not have any profitable routes.

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 17 09:24:46 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Sun Feb 16 19:22:14 2020.

Republican Senator Moran (KS) has placed an indefinite hold on any new Amtrak Board appointments, of which there are 4, because Anderson will not commit to cease his attacks on the SW Chief AND inserted Appropriation language that the route must continue.

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Feb 17 10:23:33 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 17 06:55:23 2020.

"They are dying like Sears/Kmart.


If thats the case, then any Greyhound option is off the table.

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by AlM on Mon Feb 17 11:06:19 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Feb 17 10:23:33 2020.

Greyhound was used as an example. The point was that if the only reason for long distance trains is to serve remote communities, then it is much cheaper to pay some bus company to do it than to pay Amtrak.



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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by AlM on Mon Feb 17 11:08:23 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 17 06:55:23 2020.

When Amtrak routes have come off, Greyhound got ZERO of its passengers.

Because the government isn't subsidizing Greyhound.

It's cheaper to serve remote areas of the US with subsidized bus service than with subsidized train service. That is a fact, even though it isn't the only argument to be made for or against the continuation of long distance train service.




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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Feb 17 11:47:28 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 17 06:55:23 2020.

Not a good analogy. Sears/Kmart is being deliberately destroyed from within; they could easily have rallied against Walmart, who show no signs of slowing down.

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Mon Feb 17 11:57:56 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Dave on Sun Feb 16 23:01:49 2020.

ASK MCCONNEL HE WANTS TO CUTOFF AMTRAK TOO

AND TRUMP

FACT FOOL

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Mon Feb 17 11:58:49 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Dave on Sun Feb 16 22:23:15 2020.

NO YOU AND THE REPUBICANS

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 17 12:05:36 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by AlM on Mon Feb 17 11:06:19 2020.

It is not the only reason. Cut costs also cuts demand. It is still a deficit operation. Nobody is going to take the bus

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 17 12:06:58 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by AlM on Mon Feb 17 11:08:23 2020.

Subsidizing Greyhound made no difference. They don't want to take the bus regardless of the bus fare.

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Dave on Mon Feb 17 12:08:06 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 17 09:24:46 2020.

Stop confusing the child with facts, please.

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Mon Feb 17 12:08:06 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 17 09:22:22 2020.

That must be why I'm still waiting for Obama's stimulous to bring back the Sunset Limited or create some more routes in the obvious gaps.

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 17 12:08:09 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Feb 17 11:47:28 2020.

Greyhound is also destroying itself, and has been for 40 years.
Walmart and Sams Clubs have also closed a lot of stores.

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Dave on Mon Feb 17 12:08:42 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Mon Feb 17 11:57:56 2020.

FACT, you're always wrong.

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Dave on Mon Feb 17 12:13:24 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 17 12:08:09 2020.

LOL!

Last year, WMT closed 22 stores. That left them with more than 4,700 stores. They closed 156 stores in 2016 but 102 were Walmart Express stores, a concept that failed so they closed all those stores.

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Feb 17 12:13:52 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by AlM on Mon Feb 17 11:06:19 2020.

So you're saying that funding for long distance Amtrak trains be transferred to intercity/long distance bus companies to cover their losses & let the long distance trains die?
Many folks have to sign off on this, which in the real world will never happen, regardless of the mathemetical gimmickry that would show an on paper savings.

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Mon Feb 17 12:15:25 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Dave on Mon Feb 17 12:08:06 2020.

IF ITS NOT ON FOX ITS NOT TRUE TO DAVEY FROM TEXASSSSSSS

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Mon Feb 17 12:15:47 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 17 09:24:46 2020.

FOR NOW ??

OR LATER ??

IF ITS NOT ON FOX ITS NOT TRUE TO DAVEY FROM TEXASSSSSSS

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Mon Feb 17 12:16:06 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Dave on Mon Feb 17 12:08:42 2020.

IF ITS NOT ON FOX ITS NOT TRUE TO DAVEY FROM TEXASSSSSSS

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Mon Feb 17 12:16:33 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Dave on Mon Feb 17 12:08:42 2020.

IF ITS NOT ON FOX ITS NOT TRUE TO DAVEY FROM TEXASSSSSSS

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 17 12:17:44 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Feb 17 12:13:52 2020.

And he thinks Congress would still go on subsidizing the NEC (They wont).

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Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes

Posted by AlM on Mon Feb 17 12:18:16 2020, in response to Re: Trump's budget slashes Amtrak funding, phases out long-distance routes, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 17 12:06:58 2020.

Fine. Then another bus company. There's nothing special about Greyhound.



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