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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by murray1575 on Thu Feb 13 09:32:17 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon Feb 10 12:17:52 2020.

Since the R27/30 had couplers a lot of them were divorced and remarried to different partners.

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Feb 13 10:31:58 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Feb 13 07:46:18 2020.

The biggest problem with the Redbirds was the bodyrot especially around the door line. IIRC they were good runners right up until the end. If they were finished with stainless steel, some of them might be still on the road today.
A fantacy meet would be at QBP where a set of Redbirds would be across the platform with R-32s

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Feb 13 11:44:28 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Feb 13 07:38:17 2020.

Right. You would have a long wait to find an R68A on the G or N/W.

If one is actually running on those lines that day.

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Feb 13 13:26:11 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Feb 13 07:46:18 2020.

All that brake noise means the dynamic braking feature is not functioning in that car. If there are many, the t/o has a poor braking train.

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Feb 13 13:28:35 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Feb 11 19:49:51 2020.

In a very basic sense, dynamic braking means that the motors are helping to stop the train.

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Feb 13 13:34:29 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by murray1575 on Thu Feb 13 09:32:17 2020.

They did that because in the days of deferred maintenance, if one car of a married pair needed main shop work and the mate was ok, they found new mate. They never bothered to put them all back together, even to the point of having a pair mixed as Westinghouse and GE.

They were "religious" about keeping the link bar cars together. They would just hold the mate outside the main shop while the b/o car was worked on.

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Feb 13 13:41:06 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Feb 13 13:26:11 2020.

Especially in his operating car.

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Feb 13 14:17:17 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Feb 13 09:15:13 2020.

Well, I hope they don't scrap them right away- just in case there's more trouble with the R179s.

I have another question- are cars set for scrap (having reached their last yard) intentionally disabled in any way- like purposely putting a major cut into the brake lines or something?

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Feb 13 14:20:08 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Feb 13 11:44:28 2020.

And I also see very few R68s on the N/W- maybe someone's afraid that one will wind up at 96th/2nd and upset Cuomo?

The R68s seem pretty much on the D and G, and the modified units on the Franklin, R68As on the B.

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 13 14:47:29 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Feb 13 13:26:11 2020.

What does it mean when the brakes screech upon release and starting to accelerate ?

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Feb 13 14:53:35 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Feb 13 13:28:35 2020.

Anything like engine braking on manual transmission?

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Feb 13 14:55:11 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Feb 13 14:17:17 2020.

Like that solution they poured in the cash for clunkers cars about 10 years ago?

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by Train Dude on Thu Feb 13 17:30:12 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 13 14:47:29 2020.

It means that the shoes have not backed off the wheels after the air has been released from the brake cylinders or TBUs.

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 13 17:33:52 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 13 08:27:30 2020.

What about the PATCO cars? They are almost as old as the R-32s and definitely as old as the R-42s and they were just GOHed.

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 13 17:35:13 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Feb 13 14:53:35 2020.

Similar although not identical.

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by Train Dude on Thu Feb 13 17:39:13 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Feb 13 13:28:35 2020.

Similar but not quite. In downshifting you are just using the forward motion of the car to turn the engine and that slows the car.

In dynamic braking, you actually rewire the motor into a generator and then use the trains forward momentum to turn the generators to produce electricity which is either dissipated under the car through a resistive load or the generated electricity can be fed back into the 3rd rail to help power other trains.

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by Train Dude on Thu Feb 13 17:40:52 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by Train Dude on Thu Feb 13 17:39:13 2020.

That was meant for catfish

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Feb 13 17:46:58 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by randyo on Thu Feb 13 17:35:13 2020.

Yeah

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Feb 13 17:47:37 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by Train Dude on Thu Feb 13 17:40:52 2020.

Got it

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by TransitChuckG on Thu Feb 13 19:10:43 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by randyo on Thu Feb 13 17:33:52 2020.

I rode the first Patco trains in 1969. 51 years is amazing ..

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by Ble-nimx on Thu Feb 13 21:21:00 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by Train Dude on Sun Feb 9 17:29:06 2020.

I remember years ago right before the tens were retiring that they had put out a car equipment bulletin congratulating 4 million miles on them or something like that. It's too bad that school car and graduating Car inspecters didn't have their own graduating class photos like I'm seeing more and more. The last class of graduating NJT engineers had an opportunity to meet with the governor the director and a photo in front of the chocolate Brown pensy engine. It seems like there's a lot less pride in the job being displayed today even though a lot more photos

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by Nilet on Fri Feb 14 00:03:48 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by Catfish 44 on Wed Feb 12 23:28:14 2020.

No more on the A?

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by Nilet on Fri Feb 14 00:05:24 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Feb 13 07:46:18 2020.

Is the Kennedy retired?

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Feb 14 04:18:26 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Feb 13 13:41:06 2020.

hey Bill, I hope the doctor's visit you posted about went well.

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by zac on Fri Feb 14 05:23:38 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Feb 13 14:20:08 2020.

There are some R68s on the B, from like 28xx and up, I don't know the exact cutoff, and excluding the ones on the shuttle. These will also appear on the N/W occasionally.

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by zac on Fri Feb 14 05:42:01 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by Nilet on Fri Feb 14 00:03:48 2020.

I didn't see any on the A on Wednesday. I was waiting at Jay St for a long time when the R42 was delayed, and then rode out to Lefferts too. Never saw one, but a few on the C. I also took the A last night for a short trip and didn't see any then either.

Back in November I took the Airtrain to the A and I caught an R32 at Howard Beach, and then transferred at Utica to an R32 C to Franklin. I rode a PCC, BART, and the R32 all on the same day (actually no, I took the red eye from SF so it was the next day). That was my first trip ever from JFK home on the subway. I was determined to take transit everywhere on that trip and keep the cost down. No cabs, no Ubers, no rental.

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by Nilet on Fri Feb 14 06:16:20 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by zac on Fri Feb 14 05:42:01 2020.

:(

I wonder how much the MTA would charge for a cab ride. They'll let me straight up rent a whole train if I hand them enough cash; presumably a cab ride would be a more economical approach.

Tho I wonder, actually... four cars that would otherwise be laid up plus a few hours of T/O overtime? Maybe I should just do a gofundme for the train-rental approach. If I paid for the whole train, they have to let me into the cab! :D

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Feb 14 06:32:12 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by Nilet on Fri Feb 14 00:03:48 2020.

They are

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 14 08:39:08 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Feb 13 14:55:11 2020.

Yeah, something along those lines. In the case of electric subway cars it could be severing a major pneumatic or electric line.

As even cars set for scrapping get moved around a bit, and may do a few weeks or months on garbage detail, I'd imagine that if this is done, it would be just before they get taken away by flatbed, like the R44s and a few R27/30s were.

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 14 08:43:08 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by Train Dude on Thu Feb 13 17:40:52 2020.

OK, thanks-that's very helpful. I'll be brave enough to guess that turning the motors into generators takes away their ability to turn the axles, which in turn causes the train to lose speed, making less work for the friction brakes to stop the train?

Is that about right?

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by Ble-nimx on Fri Feb 14 09:01:52 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 14 08:43:08 2020.

If you imagine an alternators function to recharge a car battery and supply surplus voltage for the cars running demands, at idle. When you turn on all lights, blowers heaters and defroster, the alternator gets loaded and the idle speed drops through the belt.the coating traction motors captured energy gets eaten up by dynamic brake resistors and slow them down the same way.

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Feb 14 09:04:10 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Feb 14 04:18:26 2020.

Yes it did thanks. Went for a second opinion in regards to a neuropathy test/diagnosis.

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Feb 14 09:09:44 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by zac on Fri Feb 14 05:23:38 2020.

Concourse barn has 2500-2775 for D service.

CI barn has 2776-2915 for the main line.

2916-2924 are for the Franklin Shuttle, 9 singles.

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by Train Dude on Fri Feb 14 10:09:31 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 14 08:43:08 2020.

Pretty much. On the older DC propulsion cars, the effective stopping power of the dynamic brake faded below 5-7 mph. When that happened, a magnet valve known as the lock out magnet would open and air would enter the brake cylinders to bring the train to a final stop. Tfx

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 14 14:35:47 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by Ble-nimx on Fri Feb 14 09:01:52 2020.

Ah, ok. Yes, of course I've noticed how heavy use of electrical systems taxes a car's engine- because it's taxing the alternator.

I think I've got it. Thank You.

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 14 14:40:47 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by Train Dude on Fri Feb 14 10:09:31 2020.

OK, Thanks. I'll take this and merge as best I can with what BLX told me.

But- this leads to another question I've had for a while- that relates to the running of R12s on the Bronx 3rd Ave El. As I understand it, the dynamic braking function on those cars was purposely disabled to save stress on the structure. But I would think that hard braking, with shoes and screeching would be worse for the structure than a train that uses its own motors to slow itself down. Sort of like how automobiles (and buses) applying brakes wear out pavement more than they do if they gradually stopped.

I guess that wasn't the case on the 8 Train. But can you explain why? (again- not being stupid or difficult- trying to understand)



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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Feb 14 18:07:25 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by zac on Fri Feb 14 05:42:01 2020.

what airline did you fly?

I am opposed to aviation and think it needs to be banned but since you flew you're lucky to be alive.

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by VictorM on Fri Feb 14 20:19:53 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 14 14:40:47 2020.

The force the wheels apply to the rails while slowing down determines wear and tear on the el structure. Disabling dynamic braking and using only the friction braking from the brake shoes, reduces that force. Therefore there's less stress on the el, but it also increases the stopping distance.

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Feb 14 21:06:53 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by Train Dude on Thu Feb 13 17:39:13 2020.

There's this hill in south Denver that I sometimes descend depending on which route I take going home. Without exception, everyone else is riding their brakes while I just throw the Jeep into third gear and let the engine do the braking. Haven't tried that hill with my '69 AMX yet, although its engine braking is quite good.

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by zac on Fri Feb 14 21:12:20 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Feb 14 18:07:25 2020.

I fly Delta, my son is a Delta pilot. Here's a fill in the blank: I get to fly for ____!

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Feb 14 21:16:34 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by zac on Fri Feb 14 21:12:20 2020.

my son is a Delta pilot.

God bless him. There's a fake pilot named cortelyounext who posts here.

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by zac on Fri Feb 14 21:17:23 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by VictorM on Fri Feb 14 20:19:53 2020.

It is a shame they tore it down. When I ride my bike on 3rd Ave in the Bronx it feels like something is missing even though I'd never been there when it was still standing.

And actually, after working at 42nd & 3rd for twenty years, it feels like 3rd Ave in Manhattan had something missing. A lot of the old buildings are still there having never been replaced with anything newer.

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by zac on Fri Feb 14 21:20:29 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Feb 14 09:09:44 2020.

Oh, OK. I didn't think the B had cars from the 27xx series. Maybe they're assigned to the G? IDK anymore, I don't ride daily.

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by Train Dude on Fri Feb 14 21:57:59 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 14 14:40:47 2020.

That sounds like one of those transit myths. Full service brake, either with straight air or dynamic-air would still be 3mph/sec. The wheels and the el structure wouldn't "know the difference" just as the passengers wouldn't.

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Re: R-42 Retirement Run

Posted by randyo on Sat Feb 15 15:42:49 2020, in response to Re: R-42 Retirement Run, posted by Train Dude on Fri Feb 14 21:57:59 2020.

However, when I was a M/M i did notice that when the train was going fast enough for the dynamic braking to work, the train seemed to vibrate more than the older cars like the steels and R-9s until the dynamic braking faded al low speeds so that may have been a factor.

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