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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Sep 22 13:06:35 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Sep 22 12:15:09 2019.

I've always seen hospitals as places where its structures shouldn't be commercialized beyond the hospital corporation itself.

I could never be OK with something like the Amazon Hospital Center or the Facebook Medical Complex, unless such companies owned the building outright.

I couldn't see having a bypass in the Starbucks OR, could you?

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(1524832)

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Sep 22 13:26:22 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Sep 22 13:06:35 2019.

welcome to the
University of California Benioff Children's Hospital, the David Geffen school of Medicine at UCLA...
Supposedly "public" institutions have a longhistory of benefactor naming.

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(1524841)

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Sep 22 14:01:23 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Sep 22 13:06:35 2019.

I don't see the problem. Why is a hospital facility named for a corporate person (essentially a group of people acting as one) different from one named after an individual? Why is "Amazon Hospital Center" not OK but Bezos Hospital Center OK?

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Sep 22 16:19:51 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Sep 22 13:26:22 2019.

Yes, but those are individuals, not corporations.

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Sep 22 16:23:12 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Sep 22 14:01:23 2019.

Generally, because an individual is usually making a philanthropic gift of their largesse, or doing it to fight a specific disease (like Vanderbilt Oncology at NYPH), whereas corporations are seeking to increase brand exposure, rather than having altruistic motives.

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Sep 22 19:59:45 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Sep 20 16:44:53 2019.

I haven’t checked. Can I check on their website? Do I search for Voice if the people?

They never contacted me for verification. I would think they would do that if they publish it.


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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by randyo on Mon Sep 23 02:35:12 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Joe V on Sun Sep 22 07:21:44 2019.

And it always tells the truth!

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by 3-9 on Mon Sep 23 07:38:46 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Sep 20 20:35:19 2019.

The tracks on the Willy B are almost completely separate from the roadways. To duplicate that on the Verrazano you'd literally have to build another bridge.

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by jailhousedoc on Mon Sep 23 07:57:13 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by AlM on Fri Sep 20 20:43:43 2019.

Unfortunately we cannot turn back time and we must go forward. I am not too keen on having the subway tracks on either of the East River bridges as they would be a very tempting target for someone with a terrorist mindset - any ideas on how to replace those lines with underground / underwater tunnels ? Same thing for elevated lines - some of which are more than a century in age. How do we render them safer by relocating them underground with up to date amenities ? I know that this costs a lot, but safety is a desirable thing for all of us.

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by Catfish 44 on Mon Sep 23 09:30:00 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Sep 20 20:04:58 2019.

The Verrazano couldn't support the weight of trains?

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Sep 23 12:16:16 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by jailhousedoc on Mon Sep 23 07:57:13 2019.

tunnels are not inherently less subject to terrorist activity than elevated structures. The costs of several new East River tunnels which would be much more vulnerable to flooding would be better spent on extending service to areas not accessible by subway, andADA upgradeson a faster timetable.

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by Edwards! on Mon Sep 23 12:59:21 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by jailhousedoc on Mon Sep 23 07:57:13 2019.

The ideal time would have been during the Manhattan Bridge rebuild.
There was plenty of time to get the tunnel built and up and running..
The work lasted close to 20 years..a tunnel could have been there in half the time.

Too late now.
Costs have ballooned so much,it's almost impossible to build anything in NY.

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Sep 23 15:54:54 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by 3-9 on Mon Sep 23 07:38:46 2019.

My "vision" of subway service over the VZ would be building an elevated connection or ramp from the BMT in the area of 59th St Bklyn, adjacent to the BQE. Then build a Airtrain type elevated down the middle of the BQE to the bridge with the assumption that there'd be room either to pass trains under or over street crossing overpasses. Next, route the tracks on the lower level by recapturing 2 innermost traffic lanes in the middle for weight distribution. Building tracks on the outside, one on the north side & one on the south would be too stressful on the span. Passing trains would twist the structure too much, much worse than the twisting that happens on the Manhattan Br. when trains cross.
Once on Staten Isl, the line, still on a center median Airtrain style elevated would hook up with the SIR at a point where the SI Expy crosses the line (bet Clifton & Grassmere maybe?).
I'm ready to get shot down for my outrageous suggestions, so fire away!!

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by Catfish 44 on Mon Sep 23 16:37:45 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Sep 23 15:54:54 2019.

I doubt tracks on the north and south side of the span would cause that bridge too much stress.

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by 3-9 on Mon Sep 23 18:14:59 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Sep 23 15:54:54 2019.

Are you proposing the trains go to St. George? I'm not sure if the SIRT's stations lend themselves to extension.

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Sep 23 20:36:43 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by 3-9 on Mon Sep 23 18:14:59 2019.

No. Build or remodel an existing station at the junction of where the line from Brooklyn meets up with the existing ROW of the SIR where folks from Brooklyn can transfer to trains for stops to St George. Trains from Brooklyn go to/from Tottenville only. Thru Tottenville St George service maintained while trains to Brooklyn would alternate during rush hrs & run maybe hourly during rush hrs. Public schedules issued for Bklyn service.

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Sep 23 21:32:59 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Sep 23 15:54:54 2019.

sounds good; water the money tree.

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by jailhousedoc on Tue Sep 24 04:27:01 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Sep 23 12:16:16 2019.

Newer tunnels would be built with knowledge that people in the past did not have - thus flooding would be anticipated and steps to control that should be put in place. With the East River bridges aging as they are, at some point in time a replacement for them should be in the works - look at the Tappan Zee Bridge - it was replaced, so what about the Williamsburg or the Manhattan ? The Acropolis in Greece is still standing after about 3000 years, but nobody in their right mind goes inside....

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by Joe V on Tue Sep 24 07:00:55 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by jailhousedoc on Tue Sep 24 04:27:01 2019.

The TPZ was built with far shittier highway construction standards, and also relied on floating bridges.

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Sep 24 07:21:27 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Joe V on Tue Sep 24 07:00:55 2019.

That’s why it had to be replaced after only fifty years. The WB lasted about 80 before it needed major reconstruction.

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by jailhousedoc on Tue Sep 24 13:18:13 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Edwards! on Mon Sep 23 12:59:21 2019.

I disagree - if the guys in charge really wanted it, building would begin. Some of them cannot see the forest because of all the trees....

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by AlM on Tue Sep 24 13:22:43 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by jailhousedoc on Tue Sep 24 13:18:13 2019.

I think the overwhelming majority of New Yorkers disagree with you that a high transit priority is getting rid of subways on bridges.



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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Sep 24 13:38:56 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by jailhousedoc on Tue Sep 24 13:18:13 2019.

Or some of them realize that there are literally millions of things that are more worthwhile to do.

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by AlM on Tue Sep 24 13:45:06 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Sep 24 13:38:56 2019.

Eh, replacing the MB tracks with a well-designed high speed tunnel could save a whole load of commuters 10 minutes per day.

I can't think of millions of subway projects more worthwhile than that, only dozens.





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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by Catfish 44 on Tue Sep 24 14:35:28 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by jailhousedoc on Tue Sep 24 04:27:01 2019.

They considered a Williamsburg replacement in 1988 and decided to rebuild. It's not going anywhere anytime soon. Is neither is the Mnahttan Bridge. I believe political nonsense as much as any condition of the Tappan Zee Bridge had to do with its replacement.

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by Catfish 44 on Tue Sep 24 14:36:09 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Joe V on Tue Sep 24 07:00:55 2019.

Is it that or inferior materials available during the Korean War?

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by Edwards! on Tue Sep 24 14:59:36 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by jailhousedoc on Tue Sep 24 13:18:13 2019.

True,but let's be practical here.
The last estimate for the last proposed tunnel was around 5 billion... including the lead up to the Atlantic branch but not including a station.
While this might have been a perfect opportunity for a Brooklyn extension of the SAS..there is no downtown Second Ave subway except for two short sections.
This tunnel could tie directly to the WTC platform of the 8th avenue subway.
Either way, what we need right now is new lines in the boroughs of Bklyn Qns BX and S.I.

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Sep 24 15:28:02 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by AlM on Tue Sep 24 13:45:06 2019.

Fine, I can think of hundreds.

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by randyo on Tue Sep 24 17:42:13 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by AlM on Tue Sep 24 13:45:06 2019.

Replacing the Manny B tracks with a tunnel is not as easy as waving a magic wand and saying “presto.” besides the cost of the tunnel itself, the alignment of the approaches to the bridge probably won't match the location of any new tunnel. The current alignments on both sides of the bridge also rise to get to the bridge and any new approaches will have to descend to a reasonable level in order to access any proposed tunnel and it is made even more difficult by the presence of stations on both sides which may or may not have to be relocated.

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by edp128128 on Tue Sep 24 17:42:23 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Sep 24 15:28:02 2019.

First I'd like to remove the Trump name at the skating rink in Central Park.

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by Joe V on Tue Sep 24 17:44:09 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Catfish 44 on Tue Sep 24 14:36:09 2019.

The 4 free East River Bridges I think it safe to say were over engineered. The TPZ was not.

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Sep 24 17:52:49 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Joe V on Tue Sep 24 17:44:09 2019.

Correct. Most everything was "over engineered" back then.As an example, Just look at the dual contract El lines in NYC. Most of those structures are over 100 years old & still standing holding up heavier trains nowadays than when opened. Misplaced junk left on the tracks by careless employees falls from time to time, but nothing from the actual superstructure. Seems like they were built to last forever

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by Joe V on Tue Sep 24 18:14:54 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Sep 24 17:52:49 2019.

The Fulton Street portion of the Jamaica el was built during the 1880's. OTOH, the Newark Airport monorail structure will soon be replaced.

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Sep 24 20:24:59 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by edp128128 on Tue Sep 24 17:42:23 2019.

EDP

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Sep 24 20:29:50 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Joe V on Tue Sep 24 18:14:54 2019.

That rickety Fulton St section on the Jamaica El was reinforced & strengthened about 100 yrs after it was built. Prior to the strengthening I lived in Woodhaven & had to take the J train into work in the early 80s. When a train of mixed R-16 & 27s would come to a stop at the Norwood Ave Sta. the structure shook so much, I worried that we might soon be street running. I don't know if another El structure in NYC was reinforced to the degree that the Jamaica Ave El over Fulton St was.
OTOH, I'm hearing that the MN Park Ave Viaduct might have to be rebuilt. Hopefully its the section right out of the tunnel & not the part (north of 110th St.) which was rebuilt in the early-mid 90s
Bottom line, they don't make'em like they used to.

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Sep 24 21:15:10 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Sep 24 20:29:50 2019.

If you had to bear the weight of six or eight car trains of 94,000lb Standards, for 40+ years, you would be rickety, too! The section from Alabama Ave to Crescent St had been built to support lighter BRT and LIRR trains.

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Sep 24 21:20:34 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by AlM on Tue Sep 24 13:22:43 2019.

I agree! Riders just want to get from Point A to Point B as quickly as possible. They couldn't care less if that involves crossing over, or under, a river.

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by Kevin from Midwood on Tue Sep 24 21:54:25 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Sep 24 21:20:34 2019.

They prefer the bridge for at least one reason: the availability of cell service.

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by 3-9 on Tue Sep 24 22:59:38 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Kevin from Midwood on Tue Sep 24 21:54:25 2019.

That, and the views.

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by jailhousedoc on Wed Sep 25 02:01:44 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Edwards! on Tue Sep 24 14:59:36 2019.

I would hope to live long enough to see such things accomplished, but now that I am 67 years old, I doubt that I will see the Southern half of SAS up and running. Oh, the procrastination !

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by ntrainride on Wed Sep 25 02:53:23 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Joe V on Mon Sep 16 13:12:37 2019.

another white idiot who only cares about black people killed by white people...about 5 percent...versus the other 95 percent killed by fellow blacks.



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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by Joe V on Wed Sep 25 06:06:13 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Sep 24 20:29:50 2019.

I remember the Crescent Street canopy shaking to and fro the most, whatever the trains consist. R16's were heavier.

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Sep 25 06:35:43 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Kevin from Midwood on Tue Sep 24 21:54:25 2019.

That brings up something else: the underground portions of SEPTA's two subway lines here have cell service, at AND between all stations. That shows it's doable. Wondering why NYC still doesn't have that yet...

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Sep 25 07:55:26 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Sep 24 07:21:27 2019.

And the only reason it needed such extensive repairs was because it hadn't been properly maintained up until then. Look at the Triboro/RFK bridge- it's now 80+ years old, needs work (which it's receiving), but is not in the state of near collapse that the Willy B and, to a lesser extent, the Manny B were.

If the Willy B and Manny B had been properly cared for, they would not have needed the same scale of work they did.

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(1525101)

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Sep 25 07:57:46 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Sep 23 15:54:54 2019.

Honestly, I'd settle for re-activation of the North Shore line, to compatibility with the Tottenville line, running R44s or R211s. Also won't happen in crazy NYC- but any place else, it would be entirely feasible.

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(1525104)

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by Catfish 44 on Wed Sep 25 09:43:40 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Joe V on Tue Sep 24 17:44:09 2019.

I'm not going to disagree with you but I'd say the engineers that designed them were geniuses. I don't think it's a fair assessment of the original bridge or its engineer Emil Praeger.

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by AlM on Wed Sep 25 11:20:08 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Sep 25 07:55:26 2019.

The MB was designed badly, by putting the trains on the outside and not sufficiently reinforcing the bridge originally to be able to tolerate that.

There may have been poor maintenance, but that wasn't the only problem.

For the WB, there was no such design issue, of course.




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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by AlM on Wed Sep 25 11:21:24 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by Joe V on Tue Sep 24 17:44:09 2019.

Not the MB. They put the trains on the outside but didn't make the bridge strong enough to support the resulting swaying for the rest of time.



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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by Edwards! on Wed Sep 25 11:26:01 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Sep 25 06:35:43 2019.

Good question.

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Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works

Posted by Edwards! on Wed Sep 25 11:31:25 2019, in response to Re: NY Daily News: Robert Moses’ Name Should Be Removed from Public Works, posted by jailhousedoc on Wed Sep 25 02:01:44 2019.

Yes...
The days of seeing new routes being built are dwindling.
We were fortunate to see the little piece of the Second Ave route open...

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