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| Re: Entire IRT suspended (1519014) | |
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| (1519174) | |
Re: Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Sat Jul 20 18:03:30 2019, in response to Re: Entire IRT suspended, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Jul 19 15:06:51 2019. And dig his queens nose and ass deep into the problem |
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| (1519175) | |
Re: Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by Brightonr68 on Sat Jul 20 18:15:45 2019, in response to Re: Entire IRT suspended, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jul 20 03:50:44 2019. The problem with computer tech is that if you don’t do the proper upkeep it either working or not working at all vs mechanical where if you don’t do the proper upkeep it may fail a little but still work .I bet we are going to find out that proper upkeep was not done and presto need entirely new system. The current rail control center 20 years old ? |
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| (1519176) | |
Re: Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by nasadowsk on Sat Jul 20 18:51:02 2019, in response to Re: Entire IRT suspended, posted by TransitChuckG on Sat Jul 20 07:24:39 2019. Yup, unit 1, after they do a steam gen replacement and relicense (unopposed), closes because 'cheap' natural gas.Interestingly, if the operators would have kept their hands off the controls and taken a deep breath and thought for a minute or two, unit 2 wouldn't have melted. The automatic systems were working fine until the operators decided they weren't, and turned them off... |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (1519178) | |
Re: Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Jul 20 19:56:03 2019, in response to Re: Entire IRT suspended, posted by jabrams on Sat Jul 20 17:52:36 2019. FWIW, the issue is that the radios don't quite work well so there were cases where crews and RCC couldn't hear each other. Even then, the concern was that the interlocking signals may have been set to danger and trains wouldn't have been able to proceed or take their normal routes.Secondly, if the trains were going to remain in the stations, why discharge the passengers? Let them either leave or wait it out in the A/C cars. IIRC, the idea was to discharge the passengers where possible to get them off the train and onto the B division network or buses, and get the trains to move out of the stations ASAP so the next train could move in and do the same. There were a number of trains that were stuck along the express tracks and underwater tubes where passengers were freaking out and wanted out ASAP. |
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| (1519184) | |
Re: Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Sun Jul 21 00:40:01 2019, in response to Re: Entire IRT suspended, posted by nasadowsk on Sat Jul 20 18:51:02 2019. Thank you, interesting, I did not know that about the automatic systems. |
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| (1519202) | |
Re: Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by nasadowsk on Sun Jul 21 07:17:30 2019, in response to Re: Entire IRT suspended, posted by TransitChuckG on Sun Jul 21 00:40:01 2019. Yeah. The fear was that the automatic system was going to overfill the primary side of the system, which could theoretically cause it to bust pipes, or at least make pressure control really hard. This was based on a pressurizer level indicator that was wonky because the thing was dumping steamy/foamy water out of the top of the pressurizer.Eventually, a superheated steam bubble formed in the reactor itself (bad), and things went south from there (literally). The failing fuel added to the mess by puking out the noncondensible gasses they held, and eventually the main pumps became airbound. A combination of dumping pressure and refilling the system got things to the point where they could restart a coolant pump. Then things got better, except for the pesky hydrogen bubble everyone was panicking about. It turns out the NRC was using the wrong calculation about it, and the bubble was shrinking away on its own (they actually add hydrogen into the coolant as an O2 scavenger anyway). After a few weeks, they were able to shut the coolant pumps and the plant cooled off on natural circulation. It wasn't until a few years later when they stuck a camera into the reactor vessel that they saw there was so much damage in there. Eventually they had to jackhammer the stuff out. The water in the primary side was ultimately filtered, purified, released. The entire plant sits dark and dry now... 1/3rd of the core melted, and a large chunk relocated to the bottom of the reactor vesse. |
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| (1519204) | |
[ARTICLE] Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by Kevin from Midwood on Sun Jul 21 07:30:32 2019, in response to Entire IRT suspended, posted by LA Scott on Fri Jul 19 14:19:11 2019. Internal MTA incident reports obtained by THE CITY reveal that transit officials flagged Automatic Train Supervision system failures for subway problems at least 13 times since last month alone, contributing to more than 300 train delays on the numbered lines. |
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| (1519211) | |
Re: [ARTICLE] Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Jul 21 08:15:43 2019, in response to [ARTICLE] Entire IRT suspended, posted by Kevin from Midwood on Sun Jul 21 07:30:32 2019. When something like this happens, the first train near a control tower needs to dump its load and move out of the way. The Conductor from that train would then move to the control tower to operate the switches for subsequent trains. That is the only way to get a tower manned in a hurry. There is no way that other Tower Operators could get there before hell freezes over.ROAR |
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| (1519214) | |
Re: [ARTICLE] Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Jul 21 10:05:12 2019, in response to Re: [ARTICLE] Entire IRT suspended, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Jul 21 08:15:43 2019. There are no tower operators in the IRT. When such a situation occurs, they'll have a TSS man the towers.I have no idea how many towers there are but if trains aren't moving, how do we get the TSScto the tower? |
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| (1519215) | |
Re: [ARTICLE] Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Jul 21 10:18:22 2019, in response to [ARTICLE] Entire IRT suspended, posted by Kevin from Midwood on Sun Jul 21 07:30:32 2019. I wish there was a way to have that article better publicised to the ridership via the mainstream media.The author is a former NY Daily News and NY1 Transit Reporter so no doubt he has a source who is leaking the data to him. It's "funny" to me that when a large swath of signals go down they call it "Network Communications Issues" rather than "Division Wide Signal Problems". Trying to fool the public & news media. |
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| (1519223) | |
Re: [ARTICLE] Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Jul 21 13:17:27 2019, in response to Re: [ARTICLE] Entire IRT suspended, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Jul 21 10:05:12 2019. That is why a conductor needs to man the tower.ROAR |
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| (1519224) | |
Re: Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Sun Jul 21 14:09:12 2019, in response to Re: Entire IRT suspended, posted by nasadowsk on Sun Jul 21 07:17:30 2019. Thank you for the detailed information on this accident! |
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| (1519234) | |
Re: Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sun Jul 21 18:15:34 2019, in response to Re: Entire IRT suspended, posted by TransitChuckG on Sun Jul 21 14:09:12 2019. And the irony was the motion picture "The China Syndrome" came out 12 days before Three Mile Island. I actually saw it for the first time the Friday BEFORE the accident happened. |
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| (1519241) | |
Re: Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Sun Jul 21 20:59:23 2019, in response to Re: Entire IRT suspended, posted by Wallyhorse on Sun Jul 21 18:15:34 2019. You should put that in the mini-series |
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| (1519242) | |
Re: Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Jul 21 21:46:20 2019, in response to Re: Entire IRT suspended, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jul 20 12:43:46 2019. Not even those, but electro pneumatic model 14s. |
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| (1519246) | |
Re: [ARTICLE] Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Jul 21 22:07:02 2019, in response to Re: [ARTICLE] Entire IRT suspended, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Jul 21 13:17:27 2019. C/Rs aren’t qualified to operate towers. Tw/O is a promotional position from other lower level positions like C/R, station agent or signal maintainer’s helper achievable by passing a written civil service exam.. |
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| (1519247) | |
Re: [ARTICLE] Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Jul 21 22:07:41 2019, in response to Re: [ARTICLE] Entire IRT suspended, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Jul 21 10:05:12 2019. When the TSSs get qualified to operate towers? |
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| (1519250) | |
Re: [ARTICLE] Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by Dave on Mon Jul 22 01:38:38 2019, in response to Re: [ARTICLE] Entire IRT suspended, posted by randyo on Sun Jul 21 22:07:02 2019. Pwn3d! |
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| (1519253) | |
Re: [ARTICLE] Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by Jsun21 on Mon Jul 22 03:01:18 2019, in response to Re: [ARTICLE] Entire IRT suspended, posted by randyo on Sun Jul 21 22:07:02 2019. And the Conductors will ask for more money to be Tw/O qualified. The MTA won't want to pay, and it will be a whole thing. |
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| (1519257) | |
Re: [ARTICLE] Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jul 22 03:51:46 2019, in response to Re: [ARTICLE] Entire IRT suspended, posted by Jsun21 on Mon Jul 22 03:01:18 2019. When the railroad left the towers unmanned they opened themselves up to these kinds of problems. So the C/Rs should be qualified to operate the Towers and yes they should be given more money for this extra qualification.ROAR |
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| (1519271) | |
Re: Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Jul 22 06:18:07 2019, in response to Re: Entire IRT suspended, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jul 19 14:30:07 2019. Wonders...or BLUNDERS?! |
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| (1519273) | |
Re: Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jul 22 06:20:01 2019, in response to Re: Entire IRT suspended, posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Jul 22 06:18:07 2019. I think that was implied by what I said. |
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| (1519276) | |
Re: Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Mon Jul 22 06:50:19 2019, in response to Re: Entire IRT suspended, posted by Catfish 44 on Sun Jul 21 20:59:23 2019. That was some movie, I remember. How ironic! |
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| (1519277) | |
Re: Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Jul 22 08:05:46 2019, in response to Re: Entire IRT suspended, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jul 22 06:20:01 2019. Implied...or IMPLODE?! |
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| (1519279) | |
Re: [ARTICLE] Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon Jul 22 08:10:45 2019, in response to Re: [ARTICLE] Entire IRT suspended, posted by randyo on Sun Jul 21 22:07:41 2019. When the title changed. |
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| (1519280) | |
Re: Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jul 22 08:19:49 2019, in response to Re: Entire IRT suspended, posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Jul 22 08:05:46 2019. Make him stop! |
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| (1519281) | |
Re: [ARTICLE] Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Mon Jul 22 09:44:42 2019, in response to Re: [ARTICLE] Entire IRT suspended, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jul 22 03:51:46 2019. Yes, but.There's no need to pay extra for the same person, same hours, same overall demands. When I or anyone else had to learn a new skill at my last company, the directive was "Just Do It". Always on your own dime, sometimes on your own time. Nobody complained, the whole industry is like that. There's 100s of essential occupations doing things most people take for granted but can't live without (I've done some myself), zero of them outside the gov't give you the total pay/benefit/job security package of the MTA. As much as I appreciate the work done by subway crew, they are already paid far more than the average person with similar amount of job complexity and education loans required. |
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| (1519284) | |
Re: Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Mon Jul 22 10:02:46 2019, in response to Re: Entire IRT suspended, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jul 20 03:57:20 2019. I'm just shocked they use trains at all. I thought we had the green movement now. Horses, Uber, and bikes. |
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Re: [ARTICLE] Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon Jul 22 11:57:39 2019, in response to Re: [ARTICLE] Entire IRT suspended, posted by Steamdriven on Mon Jul 22 09:44:42 2019. If the c/r's are pulled for tower duty, who brings back the train from the terminal?Civil service laws would have to be changed as there are separate exams for both positions. Finally tower operator job, of which still exists in the B Division, is a promotion from conductor. |
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| (1519300) | |
Re: [ARTICLE] Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jul 22 12:33:52 2019, in response to Re: [ARTICLE] Entire IRT suspended, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon Jul 22 08:10:45 2019. It sounds like the TSS position became something like a cross between the old M/M/I job and that of the abolished trainmaster. |
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| (1519308) | |
IRT FUBAR again |
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Posted by Bzuck on Mon Jul 22 14:00:59 2019, in response to Entire IRT suspended, posted by LA Scott on Fri Jul 19 14:19:11 2019. Switch problems at Franklyn impacting 2, 3, 4, and 5 in Brooklyn. |
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| (1519310) | |
Re: IRT FUBAR again |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jul 23 20:34:57 2019, in response to IRT FUBAR again, posted by Bzuck on Mon Jul 22 14:00:59 2019. Fairly common. |
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Re: IRT FUBAR again |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jul 24 03:28:28 2019, in response to Re: IRT FUBAR again, posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jul 23 20:34:57 2019. Is this specifically the built-in bottleneck"SB" where locals and expresses merge briefly before diverging either to Brookklyn College or New Lots. |
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| (1519326) | |
Re: Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by Fine, Howard, and Fine on Wed Jul 24 08:19:21 2019, in response to Entire IRT suspended, posted by LA Scott on Fri Jul 19 14:19:11 2019. Evidently the same Siemens software that powers the ATS system is responsible for the Subchat outage of the past few days.MTA transit chief says software glitch caused Friday’s subway snafu, reports show system has been buggy for months The following day at around 6:50 a.m., as the Monday morning rush got underway, reports show that the servers supporting the ATS system also failed, leading to two hours of delays on the numbered lines. The reports show that an employee from Siemens, the technology provider for the system, was called to the Rail Control Center to help resolve the issue. MTA and Siemens employees worked together to switch the servers that supported the ATS system while they rebooted the faulty one. Does not compute: Subway problems need a reboot When you have to keep track of tracks with 8,000 trains a day, computers come in handy. And so the Transit Authority plunked down a bundle of money — nearly $230 million from 1997 through 2008 — for an information system to let them know where all those subways are. On the numbered lines, the old IRT, it’s called Automatic Train Supervision; it also operates the first generation of countdown clocks. Newer countdown clocks on other lines use a different technology. ATS is supposed to let the dispatcher see the location of all the trains. But computers rely on machines, or servers, and programming, or software. And besides the fact that both servers and software have both been failing, stranding commuters, it all works just great. Friday night’s total shutdown of the No. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6, and the Times Square shuttle was a server problem. Not as though that matters to the zillions of straphangers trapped during a roasting hot heat wave. Nor do suffering riders care that it was a coding problem on July 6 or a software glitch in March or a server issue in October. Siemens does the software; they claim no fault. Who runs the servers, Radio Shack? |
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Re: IRT FUBAR again |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Jul 24 08:35:51 2019, in response to Re: IRT FUBAR again, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jul 24 03:28:28 2019. There's a corresponding bottleneck northbound too, isn't there? They've talked about rebuilding that junction for decades, but how can you do that without shutting down all service in the interim? |
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Re: Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Jul 24 09:09:11 2019, in response to Re: Entire IRT suspended, posted by Fine, Howard, and Fine on Wed Jul 24 08:19:21 2019. Wow, why do they have multiple servers that can't do automatic failover? Or at least have the customer (NYC subways) do the failover themselves? |
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| (1519341) | |
Re: Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Jul 24 10:13:49 2019, in response to Re: Entire IRT suspended, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jul 22 08:19:49 2019. Pull his emergency cord.ROAR |
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Re: IRT FUBAR again |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Wed Jul 24 10:39:58 2019, in response to Re: IRT FUBAR again, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Jul 24 08:35:51 2019. Maybe they can do the construction on weekends. |
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Re: Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Wed Jul 24 14:23:53 2019, in response to Re: Entire IRT suspended, posted by 3-9 on Wed Jul 24 09:09:11 2019. Systems far smaller and less critical than this have constant monitoring, failover and often a plan 3 for a still functional, limited service level if multiple servers fail. |
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Re: IRT FUBAR again |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jul 24 14:56:37 2019, in response to Re: IRT FUBAR again, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Jul 24 08:35:51 2019. staring at the map againhttps://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/trackmap/pm_southeast_2.png it appears you are correct that expresses to or from Flatbush block locals to or from New Lots. I would defer however to anyone with better/more direct knowledge. Not built expecting frequent exptresses to Flatbush Serious need to water the money tree for improvement to happen. |
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Re: Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jul 24 15:05:34 2019, in response to Re: Entire IRT suspended, posted by 3-9 on Wed Jul 24 09:09:11 2019. That's the bottom line. No backup system. I think Byford said that the back up system wasn't working Friday. What he didn't tell us that the backup system wasn't working all the other times the signals went down all the other times either.I can tell you this as a (retired 5 1/2 years) MOTORMAN: when the back up system comes in, all the signals don't momentarily turn red because it will trip some trains. |
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Re: Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jul 24 15:08:25 2019, in response to Re: Entire IRT suspended, posted by 3-9 on Wed Jul 24 09:09:11 2019. why do they have multiple servers that can't do automatic failover?The servers are supposed to have different software. If there's a software bug, it's less likely it was present in both software versions. The MTA did indeed have a backup server. It was loaded with exactly same software. The backup server exhibited exactly the same bug, when it was put online after the primary server failed. |
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Re: IRT FUBAR again |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Jul 24 15:58:39 2019, in response to Re: IRT FUBAR again, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Jul 24 08:35:51 2019. If anyone remembers how they completely realigned Dekalb then Nostrand jct can be realigned too. It will just be a bit more involved. |
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Re: Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Jul 24 17:06:21 2019, in response to Re: Entire IRT suspended, posted by Steamdriven on Wed Jul 24 14:23:53 2019. Route of LION has no computers. It does have a central relay room, but that is it. To reboot, I just pull the plug on that system and all of the relays go back to zero. Plug it back in again and they will rebuild themselves as the trains go past the detectors.ROAR |
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Re: Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Jul 24 17:13:18 2019, in response to Re: Entire IRT suspended, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jul 24 15:08:25 2019. Wow... |
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Re: IRT FUBAR again |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Jul 24 17:20:41 2019, in response to Re: IRT FUBAR again, posted by randyo on Wed Jul 24 15:58:39 2019. More involved than DeKalb ???? Or maybe you were not including Gold Street Interlocking and Myrtle Avenue in that estimate.ROAR |
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| (1519414) | |
Re: Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Jul 24 17:30:31 2019, in response to Re: Entire IRT suspended, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jul 24 15:08:25 2019. So essentially, this sounds like something Siemens put together from scratch, more or less, and they're beta testing this on the IRT. Nice. |
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| (1519432) | |
Re: Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Jul 24 19:05:50 2019, in response to Re: Entire IRT suspended, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jul 24 15:08:25 2019. Talk about deja vu all over again... |
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Re: Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by K. Trout on Thu Jul 25 00:54:08 2019, in response to Re: Entire IRT suspended, posted by 3-9 on Wed Jul 24 17:30:31 2019. Welcome to the world of enterprise software development :) |
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Re: Entire IRT suspended |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jul 25 06:35:03 2019, in response to Re: Entire IRT suspended, posted by 3-9 on Wed Jul 24 17:30:31 2019. this sounds like something Siemens put together from scratchWhat we don't know is how much NYCT forced Siemens to customize their standard product to meet NYCT's "rigid" specifications or whether NYCT forced Siemens not to include certain options to save cost. |
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