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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Nilet on Sat Jul 20 07:36:58 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Jsun21 on Sat Jul 20 06:59:46 2019. That's not true, being face to face with the public during a disruption or any negative situation is an intense situation.Yes, but that's intrinsic to the job. There's no way the MTA could implement policies that ensure transit workers never interact with the public. Part of that is created by the current PR campaign that MTA workers are lazy, pension defrauding thieves. I don't think the MTA itself is running such a campaign. That seems more like the New York Post's territory, which the MTA has no control over. Now you're stuck underground and the public begins looking for people to 'hold accountable'. The number one cause of OOS bus drivers is public assault, because they know there is no police presence except on SBS. Except there's no evidence that people attack transit workers because they're mad at the MTA. The incident mentioned in the OP didn't specify a motivation, but vaguely implied the attacker may have been a vandal who got caught. Either way, the remote chance that someone might attack a front-line employee due to anger at management is a risk associated with any customer-facing position and not directly a union issue per se. You have to realize that the MTA has its own Police force, so saying its entirely outside their control is complete BS but it is something that gets suggested. No police force can guarantee crimes never happen. Providing a police escort to all MTA employees at all times is plainly impossible. If there are enough police to sit in every break room, or monitor attendance at railroad facilities then they can spare a few people to sit on a bus or roam trains. They can't spare a few people to sit on every bus and train, which is what you'd need to perfectly deter all crimes against MTA employees. The answer to the strike question is, in brief, its illegal. Even without the dubiously-constitutional Taylor law, there's no chance a union would call a strike simply because one of its members was assaulted on the job by one rando once. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Jsun21 on Sat Jul 20 09:19:03 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Nilet on Sat Jul 20 07:36:58 2019. I see you're a fan of stretching the arguments to absurd lengths, the NYP get stories from sources the timing and contents of those stories an insider can connect dots and see that it isn't just random journalism.As for evidence, there is sufficient anecdotal evidence. The assaults generally occur when there is a face-to-face conflict with the public which for Railroad and Bus employees is fare collection, for the RTO workers its during dwells and face-to-face questions during delays. Most workers including myself will draw a correlation between fare evasion and assaults. The fare evasion itself is partly a function of poverty which has a relatively constant baseline level, the outstanding balance however is a function of people who feel entitled not to pay the fare. Their 'logic' is 'I pay taxes' or 'y'all screwed me last week you should give me a free ride' or 'y'all always late, I shouldn't have to pay if you can't do your job'. So let's go through a hypothetical scenario. "All tickets please!" "No" "Sir you must have a valid ticket to ride this train" "man f*** y'all, all you do is raise fares and screw us over I ain't paying" "Look if you're refusing to pay I'm going to have to call the police" *Passenger sucker punches Conductor* Now when that assault gets recorded, does it go down as fare dispute or systemic discontent. Of course there is little data on the matter from the MTA it's not information that is of any interest to head office. But it pours out of a lot of encounters that don't lead to assaults and ones that do. People down here are feeling very spiteful and vindictive. I once had a guy tell me while I was clearing out the train that he wasn't leaving because "you wasted five minutes of my time, I'm going to waste five minutes of yours" which I thought was hilarious, but needless to say he actually took out his watch and did it, completely screwing over the three trains behind us. No police response at our busy major station, however. No idea what's going on with that but there are plenty of places where you just know there won't be any help coming, and there are people who are aware of the same that choose those areas to act a fool...go figure. There is no useful comparison between 'regular' jobs and Public transportation. In one you're viewed as a cog in a big machine, as someone like them trying to get by. So there is some public sympathy and even so most disputes land along the lines of 'I want to speak to your manager'. As a public servant people think they own you and that you are personally subservient to their individual needs. https://gothamist.com/2018/12/24/mta_bus_drivers_assaulted.php https://jacksonheightspost.com/passenger-punches-queens-bus-driver-in-the-face-after-dispute-about-fare-fdny https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/06/why-wont-anyone-drive-the-bus/563555/ "They can't spare a few people to sit on every bus and train, which is what you'd need to perfectly deter all crimes against MTA employees." "No police force can guarantee crimes never happen. Providing a police escort to all MTA employees at all times is plainly impossible." There must be some glitch in the internet, I never said to cover every train or to eliminate all assaults, the point is they are higher than normal in a comparable period and have been for several years now with no apparent corrective action. If you're going to try to straw man and hyperbolize the arguments to this ridiculous degree I'm forced to believe you aren't capable of a genuine conversation on the matter. Also it is something that the MTA employees take seriously, this is an assault you heard about but there are numerous assaults every week across the agencies, not just the ones that make the paper, I don't have doubts that there will be a response from the Unions, it weighs too heavily on the minds of a lot of peoples minds. No one wants to go to work, encounter a problem they can't control and get spit on for it. You can minimize that concern all you want, but it simply isn't true. https://queenseagle.com/all/march-for-assaults-on-transit-workers http://bronx.news12.com/story/40692466/nyc-transit-workers-rally-outside-das-office-amid-safety-concerns http://nycitylens.com/2019/05/attacks-transit-workers-stir-fear-frustration/ |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Nilet on Sat Jul 20 10:03:04 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Jsun21 on Sat Jul 20 09:19:03 2019. I see you're a fan of stretching the arguments to absurd lengthsIncorrect. the NYP get stories from sources the timing and contents of those stories an insider can connect dots and see that it isn't just random journalism. The New York Post is a propaganda rag not worth the paper it's printed on. As for evidence, there is sufficient anecdotal evidence. The plural of anecdote is not data. The assaults generally occur when there is a face-to-face conflict with the public which for Railroad and Bus employees is fare collection, for the RTO workers its during dwells and face-to-face questions during delays. That assaults committed against on-duty workers tend to occur when those workers are in contact with the public is not surprising. Most workers including myself will draw a correlation between fare evasion and assaults. In other words, there is a correlation between fare evasion and assault according to several uncontrolled unblinded n=1 studies. The fare evasion itself is partly a function of poverty which has a relatively constant baseline level, the outstanding balance however is a function of people who feel entitled not to pay the fare. You can't necessarily make that conclusion. How do you know it's not peer pressure, or a rational decision based on the calculation that a $100 fine multiplied by the odds of getting caught is less than $2.75 or mechanical failure or a simple sense of "I'm in a rush and can't spare the time to refill my metrocard" or anything else? You can't just assume people's motivations en masse. Their 'logic' is 'I pay taxes' or 'y'all screwed me last week you should give me a free ride' or 'y'all always late, I shouldn't have to pay if you can't do your job'. Have you done any actual studies on farebeaters to reach this conclusion? While some individual farebeaters may have stated their motivation as such, it's impossible to draw broad conclusions based on that. So let's go through a hypothetical scenario. Let's see some evidence that this scenario is representative of typical assaults on transit staff. People down here are feeling very spiteful and vindictive. I once had a guy tell me while I was clearing out the train that he wasn't leaving because "you wasted five minutes of my time, I'm going to waste five minutes of yours" which I thought was hilarious, but needless to say he actually took out his watch and did it, completely screwing over the three trains behind us. Funny anecdote, but still not data. Welcome to working with the public. There is no useful comparison between 'regular' jobs and Public transportation. In one you're viewed as a cog in a big machine, as someone like them trying to get by. So there is some public sympathy and even so most disputes land along the lines of 'I want to speak to your manager'. As a public servant people think they own you and that you are personally subservient to their individual needs. Have you ever worked retail? I can assure you that the sorts of annoyances you face from an entitled public are inherent to any job that involves working with the public. For every jerk who thinks it's your fault the trains are late is another jerk who thinks it's the minimum wage employee's fault that the McDonalds ice cream machine is broken. There must be some glitch in the internet, I never said to cover every train or to eliminate all assaults, the point is they are higher than normal in a comparable period and have been for several years now with no apparent corrective action. Define "normal." Is a typical transit worker more likely to be assaulted than a typical convenience store employee? Or bank teller? Or subway rider? Or random person on the street? You've posted anecdotes about individual assaults, people reacting to anecdotes, and a hint of a momentary uptick in incidents but nothing definitively showing that the rate is trending upwards and that a change in policy could do something about it. If you're going to try to straw man and hyperbolize the arguments to this ridiculous degree I'm forced to believe you aren't capable of a genuine conversation on the matter. You implied that a change in MTA policy could have prevented these assaults, but you haven't managed to articulate exactly what said policy would look like. It's hard to imagine how they could have been prevented short of a cop being on the train at the time. But if that's not your argument, then what is? Also it is something that the MTA employees take seriously, this is an assault you heard about but there are numerous assaults every week across the agencies, not just the ones that make the paper, I don't have doubts that there will be a response from the Unions, it weighs too heavily on the minds of a lot of peoples minds. No one wants to go to work, encounter a problem they can't control and get spit on for it. But none of that changes the fact that a transit strike would not, in any way, address those issues. You can minimize that concern all you want Now who's using straw man arguments? |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Jul 20 10:11:55 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Nilet on Sat Jul 20 10:03:04 2019. IAWTP.Assaults on transportation personnel are despicable and they are a problem. But nobody is demonstrating that the problem is getting worse or that MTA management doesn't care. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Jul 20 10:41:36 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Nilet on Sat Jul 20 04:12:44 2019. While Christianity does preach forgiveness, the caveat is that the sinner “go and sin no more.” If the forgiven person just goes back to his/her sinful way of life then forgiveness does not really attach. It’s a bit laughable that most penal systems in our country are referred to as"departments of correction” since in many cases actual correction of the incarcerated individual is not accomplished at all. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Jul 20 10:42:56 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jul 19 18:17:44 2019. Many monks are also ordained priests. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jul 20 10:46:07 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by randyo on Sat Jul 20 10:41:36 2019. That’s why deathbed repentance is really the only way to go. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Jul 20 10:58:17 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Nilet on Sat Jul 20 07:36:58 2019. While the MTA has its own police force, at the present time, MTA police are not deployed in the NYCT which is under the aegis of the NYPD so called “Transit Bureau." |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Jul 20 11:06:19 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Jul 20 03:59:21 2019. Maybe the best way for the union to handle the situation is to engage in sporadic one day strikes as is often done in Europe, which are usually unpredictable and allow no chance for the city to prepare for it. By the time the so called alternatives are prepared, the employees will be back to work. The advantage to that is also that instead of losing several weeks pay from a prolonged strike, the employees and the union would only be fined for the one day at a time that the strike actually lasts. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Jul 20 11:39:24 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jul 20 10:46:07 2019. Oh God if there is one save my soul if I have one. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Jul 20 11:49:56 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by randyo on Sat Jul 20 11:06:19 2019. I guess you do not understand the taylor law and its financial implications for anyone who strikes, each worker is fined two days pay for one day strike and Union would be fined up to a million dollars per day. so besides loosing one day salary, and paying two day fine a worker looses 3 days actual pay. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Nilet on Sat Jul 20 12:01:18 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jul 20 10:46:07 2019. Not really. There might be a god who accepts deathbed repentance. But there might be a god who considers it a cynical ploy and actively punishes it far worse than being merely unrepentant. Neither god is more likely to exist than the other, so it's a wash. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jul 20 12:12:47 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jul 20 05:49:14 2019. Rikers is useless for development. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jul 20 12:14:20 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jul 20 05:53:56 2019. If they are remanded, then yes we do have to house them. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jul 20 12:16:39 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by randyo on Sat Jul 20 10:42:56 2019. So? |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jul 20 12:18:02 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by randyo on Sat Jul 20 11:06:19 2019. Europe is much more union friendly. Europe doesn’t have the Taft-Heartless Act. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Jul 20 12:24:29 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jul 20 03:39:47 2019. "If they were innocent, they would not have been brought in.If you are called for jury duty, saying that will get you out of it real quick. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jul 20 12:50:13 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jul 20 12:12:47 2019. Then why does Da Balseio want to get his paws on it? |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jul 20 12:52:09 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jul 20 12:14:20 2019. But if the case is adjudicated then and there, give him some stripes and send him home.If he declines that route, then the old methods are used and the world drags on. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jul 20 13:00:21 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jul 20 12:50:13 2019. De Blasio was opposed to closing Rikers until it became a cause célèbre among idiot regressives. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jul 20 13:01:25 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jul 20 12:52:09 2019. How is it going to be adjudicated then and there? Do you know anything about preparing for trial? |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Jeromeline on Sat Jul 20 14:04:18 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Jul 20 11:49:56 2019. They don't lose 3 days pay. They lose the day's pay for the day they don't work, and they get fined a day's pay, thus losing 2 days pay |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Jul 20 14:41:53 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Jeromeline on Sat Jul 20 14:04:18 2019. Thats still a lot of $$$. MOney lost in an illegal strike, especially if it drags on, will take a very long time for an individual employee to make up. Then on top of that is the eventual raise in union dues to replenish any fines to the union. Bottom line, a strike, especially an illegal one, is to be absolutely, positively a last resort. More people all around get hurt then benefit. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Jsun21 on Sun Jul 21 00:25:57 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Nilet on Sat Jul 20 10:03:04 2019. The plural of anecdote is not data.Except there's no evidence that people attack transit workers because they're mad at the MTA. Perhaps, you should have asked for it then, you specifically stated evidence, but assuming you chose the wrong word here you go. The MTA has internal safety numbers that very clearly indicate the assaults on Railroad and RTO staff have gone up. T/O is up 50% from 2017-18, Conductors went up by about 3%. It is conclusive that assaults on Conductors/Train staff are up based solely on the number of incidents that lead to lost productivity. The total assault number is obscured and deflated by the fact that most events do not make it into the annual report when they do not effect the bottom-line. You implied that a change in MTA policy could have prevented these assaults No, that's an extrapolation, I responded to your claim that crime on the MTA is completely out of MTA control, which is false as the MTA has a police department in its direct chain of command and can choose how to deploy those resources. The fact that it doesn't pursue the use of MTAPD on the subways among other things is what needs to be changed. My point is the MTA needs to have an aggressive approach in the known locations where assaults routinely occur and that the harassment, the fact that someone was able to assault a Conductor at Stillwell and escape when the station is within walking distance of two precincts is very telling of the level of cooperation between MTA and NYPD. The NYPD isn't primarily concerned with the protection of the MTA and Police response is normally down the stairs at the end of the station or down the block and around the corner so a perp can easily escape in the time it takes to... Radio for help-->have Dispatch call 911-->911 calls Police Dispatch--->Local Unit Responds. Lots of perps know this at least on an unconscious level and continuing to lack a police presence is only going to allow things to continue. The NYPD needs to incorporate the platform into their patrol more frequently and if they're unwilling then the MTAPD needs to take up that task. You can't necessarily make that conclusion. [...snip]You can't just assume people's motivations en masse. I'm simply going off of what the fare beaters tell me or say to other members of my crew, no assumption required. Fare evasion is a nonviolent petty offense and often a crime of poverty. It has nothing to do with assault. Except there's no evidence that people attack transit workers because they're mad at the MTA As you would say, citation needed, and the DOT would disagree with you. In fact they cite dissatisfaction with service and delays as the first reason in their report, which is corroborated by the information broadcast daily for reported delays. https://www.transit.dot.gov/sites/fta.dot.gov/files/Final_TRACS_Assaults_Report_14-01_07_06_15_pdf_rv6.pdf It makes several recommendations about how best to deploy Police resources to create effective deterrents Is a typical transit worker more likely to be assaulted than a typical convenience store employee The short answer is yes. 40% More likely to be the victim of intentional violence per the BLS https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/osh/case/ostb4370.pdf The criminal justice reference service even pins the number at 50% more likely per 1000 employees. https://www.ncjrs.gov/ovc_archives/ncvrw/2017/images/en_artwork/Fact_Sheets/2017NCVRW_WorkplaceViolence_508.pdf Have you ever worked retail? Yep, worked in retail, tourist traps, non-profits, Commercial Airlines and Railroading. Had more run ins in transport by far and away, people feeling trapped and out of control in a situation that they already view as vaguely dangerous turns even average/good people into monsters in a way that doesn't affect most people when it comes to TVs and low end laptops. What's your Public Transit work experience btw since we're getting personal? Even without the dubiously-constitutional Taylor law, there's no chance a union would call a strike simply because one of its members was assaulted on the job by one rando once. Yes but the TWU already believes that this is part of a rampant increase so characterizing it as a one off bolt from the blue is not accurate at all. As far as no Union calling for a strike over assaults, Detroit would like to have a word with you https://thehill.com/policy/transportation/191879-detroit-bus-drivers-strike-over-assaults- TWU worker safety is a big item in every contract, if things break down anything could happen and safety will of course have a big contribution. Will there be a strike over these two incidents, no unlikely, but eventually if the protests don't work, it does reach a tipping point where the workers take direct action and then Politicians have to intervene from the top-down. Especially ambitious Politicians who need to make the impression they have everything under control to advance their careers. "You can minimize that concern all you want" Now who's using straw man arguments? No one on this side of the internet, you've said it's a petty crime either in reference to a murder or assaulting Transportation personnel in the line of duty, which is literally minimizing the crime since it is a D felony, not a petty offense. Your second point also states that crime is historically low, either you're referring to crimes against civilians which is not what the OP is discussing or it is in reference to the number of RTO assaults in which case that is false. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Nilet on Sun Jul 21 01:29:21 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Jsun21 on Sun Jul 21 00:25:57 2019. The MTA has internal safety numbers that very clearly indicate the assaults on Railroad and RTO staff have gone up. T/O is up 50% from 2017-18, Conductors went up by about 3%.Up from what? "Up 50%" could mean 750 instead of 500; it could also mean 3 instead of 2. That the increase is far more pronounced among T/Os than conductors makes me wonder. No, that's an extrapolation, I responded to your claim that crime on the MTA is completely out of MTA control, which is false as the MTA has a police department in its direct chain of command and can choose how to deploy those resources. The fact that it doesn't pursue the use of MTAPD on the subways among other things is what needs to be changed. How would it deploy them? My point is the MTA needs to have an aggressive approach in the known locations where assaults routinely occur and that the harassment, the fact that someone was able to assault a Conductor at Stillwell and escape when the station is within walking distance of two precincts is very telling of the level of cooperation between MTA and NYPD. The NYPD isn't primarily concerned with the protection of the MTA You're describing the typical police response to most crime. This isn't something unique or intrinsic to MTA workers. I'm simply going off of what the fare beaters tell me or say to other members of my crew, no assumption required. So literally every farebeater has said that to you, personally? There's a reason I included the "en masse." You're (a) relying on straw man arguments, and (b) once again substituting anecdotes for data. As you would say, citation needed "Fare evasion is a nonviolent offense" is self-evident; no citation required. It defies belief that jumping a turnstile constitutes a violent act. "There's no evidence that..." precedes a negative claim, which does not need to be affirmatively proven. So no citations are required on my part. The short answer is yes. 40% More likely to be the victim of intentional violence per the BLS https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/osh/case/ostb4370.pdf You might want to explain that, since your link doesn't seem to say what you think it says. The criminal justice reference service even pins the number at 50% more likely per 1000 employees. https://www.ncjrs.gov/ovc_archives/ncvrw/2017/images/en_artwork/Fact_Sheets/2017NCVRW_WorkplaceViolence_508.pdf Your second link only compares "transportation" with "retail" and thus isn't really specific enough to say anything specific about subway crew. Yep, worked in retail, tourist traps, non-profits, Commercial Airlines and Railroading. Once again, anecdotes aren't data. The question "have you worked retail?" wasn't meant to be taken literally. Yes but the TWU already believes that this is part of a rampant increase What is their evidence that this is part of a distinct increase? As far as no Union calling for a strike over assaults, Detroit would like to have a word with you There is a fundamental difference between bus drivers (who lack the relative safety of an enclosed operating cab) striking after a consistent upwards trend in assaults and subway conductors striking after one. (Or even a handful.) I didn't say "no union ever strikes over workplace safety," I said "one assault does not constitute a workplace safety issue that a union would strike over." I fear you have shredded another straw man. TWU worker safety is a big item in every contract, if things break down anything could happen And if things break down and violence returns to 1980s levels, then that will be a situation completely unrelated to the point that I made. Will there be a strike over these two incidents, no unlikely Exactly. eventually if the protests don't work, it does reach a tipping point Then that will be a separate situation entirely. "No union would strike over one or two assaults on their members by randos" does not imply the union won't strike if assaults become regular enough that the workplace becomes hazardous. However, we aren't there yet. "Now who's using straw man arguments?" No one on this side of the internet, you've said it's a petty crime either in reference to a murder or assaulting Transportation personnel in the line of duty No, I said fare evasion was a petty offense. Falsely claiming that I called assault or murder a petty offense and then trying to debunk that in lieu of my actual claim is a textbook example of a straw man argument. Your second point also states that crime is historically low, either you're referring to crimes against civilians which is not what the OP is discussing Unless you're claiming that subway crew are substantially more likely to be assaulted than anyone else (which none of your links have suggested) then a low overall crime rate is relevant to the topic. or it is in reference to the number of RTO assaults in which case that is false. Citation needed. Are you seriously claiming a conductor is more likely to be assaulted now than in 1995? 1980? 1960? |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Jul 21 04:12:20 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by AlM on Fri Jul 19 14:48:35 2019. Inconvenience and difficulty in visiting jails, are part of the inmate's punishment. It's not spoken of openly, but it's the truth. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Jul 21 04:15:52 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jul 20 05:53:56 2019. Lashes are an absolute punishment, which is the exclusive province of a perfect criminal justice system. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Bklynsubwaybob on Sun Jul 21 05:30:19 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Bklynsubwaybob on Sat Jul 20 02:54:30 2019. No sympathy for the TWU. The union called for the strike amid major disapproval of the rank and file. After 11 days on strike the union agreed to the terms of the TA which were exactly what was offered before the strike was called. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Jul 21 05:51:55 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jul 20 13:01:25 2019. Why should there be a trial. He pleads guilty accepts stripes and goes home.Just like paying a fine in traffic court. ROAR |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by pragmatist on Sun Jul 21 06:10:49 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Jul 21 05:51:55 2019. Innocent until proven guilty is a cornerstone of criminal justice in this country. it is one of the things that separates us from many other parts of the world. it is doubtful that major changes to that principle will be acceptable to the majority of Americans. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Jul 21 06:11:28 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Jul 21 05:51:55 2019. And if he isn't guilty? |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Nilet on Sun Jul 21 06:11:40 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jul 20 12:52:09 2019. So in other words, you invented the concept of a plea bargain. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Jul 21 06:18:14 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Bklynsubwaybob on Sun Jul 21 05:30:19 2019. That's because the TA has an unfair advantage afforded it by the Taylor Law. Think about it. If the TWU membership goes on strike--a right granted to all kinds of other non-municipal unionized workers--they pay through the nose in penalties. The TA can sit back, wait for the pain to become unbearable, and dictate terms when the TWU is forced to cry "Uncle".That happened in 2005, as well. The TWU ended up with essentially the same terms the MTA offered at the outset. Toussaint went to jail and got called a thug for his trouble, and I actually think Toussaint was right. He was hamstrung by the Taylor Law from the beginning, though. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Pragmatist on Sun Jul 21 07:02:26 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Jul 21 06:18:14 2019. Not entirely, mandatory binding arbitration has often backfired on gov't when the awards were above what they may have at the table. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jul 21 07:30:17 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by AlM on Sun Jul 21 06:11:28 2019. He pleads guilty, gets whipped and goes home. What is there not to understand? |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Jul 21 07:43:54 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jul 21 07:30:17 2019. Heh. I want to see how his answer will reconcile with Luke 6:37. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jul 21 07:53:04 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by AlM on Sun Jul 21 07:43:54 2019. If everyone just pleads guilty, no one gets judged. Problem solved! |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Jul 21 08:02:30 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by pragmatist on Sun Jul 21 06:10:49 2019. Nor is that being suggested, but a perp can always plead 'guilty and be adjudicated on the spot. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Jul 21 08:03:27 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by AlM on Sun Jul 21 06:11:28 2019. He gets his day in court, and for some crimes he will have to post bail or may be remanded until trial. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jul 21 08:07:16 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Jul 21 08:02:30 2019. Again, our discussion is about innocent people, not guilty ones. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jul 21 08:07:41 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Jul 21 08:03:27 2019. And if he can’t post bail? |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Jul 21 11:34:02 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Pragmatist on Sun Jul 21 07:02:26 2019. Occasionally. More likely, the MTA wins out. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Jul 21 13:15:31 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jul 21 08:07:16 2019. I guess the inocent are in deep doo doo. But that is always the way. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Jul 21 13:16:13 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jul 21 08:07:41 2019. He stays in jail. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jul 21 16:29:46 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Jul 21 13:15:31 2019. Figures |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jul 21 16:30:23 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Jul 21 13:16:13 2019. Of course. So much for "Christian" compassion. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sun Jul 21 16:41:30 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jul 21 16:30:23 2019. Judeo-Christian values are quite compassionate. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jul 21 16:42:23 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by LuchAAA on Sun Jul 21 16:41:30 2019. LOL! Thanks. |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Jeromeline on Sun Jul 21 18:38:50 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Jul 20 14:41:53 2019. Union dues can only be raise by the percentage of the wage increase. Workers get a 3% raise, union dues go up 3% |
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Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault? |
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Posted by Pragmatist on Sun Jul 21 18:48:29 2019, in response to Re: Why are MTA workers not striking due to tonight's conductor assault?, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Jul 21 11:34:02 2019. Yes. I was referring to contracts with all covered workers, not just the ones with MTA. Certain unions have an advantage since their cases are handled by PERB, but not always. |
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