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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by TheGreatOne2k9 on Thu Jul 11 19:30:33 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Jul 11 19:12:58 2019.

The MTA now only wants to use diamonds for additional (peak) express service on the same line. Before it was used for rush hour only services.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 11 19:52:34 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by TheGreatOne2k9 on Thu Jul 11 19:30:33 2019.

Thus the F diamond is the correct designation. It matches the 6 diamond and 7 diamond, which are the two diamonds they kept when they simplified the meaning circa 2005.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by Train Dude on Thu Jul 11 19:53:58 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Jul 11 08:07:50 2019.

Former ACMO, and 2 former RTO Supt's, at lunch today found it hilarious.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by gbs on Thu Jul 11 21:02:02 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by TheGreatOne2k9 on Thu Jul 11 19:30:33 2019.


But even under the old definition, the Z was never a diamond and always should have been.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jul 11 21:28:49 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by gbs on Thu Jul 11 21:02:02 2019.

I never thought Z had diamond status. It was skip-stop more than express. It think there is a difference.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Jul 12 04:29:34 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by Edwards! on Thu Jul 11 07:42:41 2019.

I agree.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Jul 12 05:48:42 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jul 11 21:28:49 2019.

But it ran only at rush hours. There was never going to be a perfect catch-all.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by Dan on Fri Jul 12 06:18:49 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by Brightonr68 on Wed Jul 10 20:09:59 2019.

That's funny because back in the 1980s many people took various buses to the F train stations to avoid the Brighton and Sea Beach lines. The F had the best always-air-condtioned equipment and wasn't bogged down by having to pass through Dekalb Avenue or use the Manhattan Bridge during it's endless reconstruction.

Even in the 1970s the F always received the newest equipment for operational and political reasons. Generally graffiti-free too.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jul 12 06:32:41 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Jul 12 05:48:42 2019.

Which is why the new definition is an improvement.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jul 12 07:16:57 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by Edwards! on Thu Jul 11 07:42:41 2019.

I wonder whether railfans of the future will think of this like we thing of the W Astoria Express.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by brightonr68 on Fri Jul 12 08:03:43 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by 3-9 on Wed Jul 10 11:24:31 2019.

I agree. Need to stop treating riders like babies. Just close the door and go. If the signage is there.



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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by Edwards! on Fri Jul 12 08:35:54 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Jul 11 07:52:10 2019.

YUP.
However,such limited service will basically ensure that the trials fail...just like the Bronx 4 exp did...and the W express.
If Operations really wanted to make it right,they definitely wouldn't go the Z TRAIN route.

Service adjustments should work to improve ridership And operations...both passengers and for employees.

No one should expect a ONE SEAT RIDE to every destination...to do so is selfish and silly.
With trackage availability, services ought to be operated along Exp ROWS as much as possible to speed up trips...with local feeder routes making LOCAL STOPS.

The F is a prime candidate for such a service.
The J is a prime candidate for such a service.
The 4 is a prime candidate for such a service.
The D is a prime candidate for such a service.



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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by AlM on Fri Jul 12 09:17:41 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by Edwards! on Fri Jul 12 08:35:54 2019.

The 4 and W expresses failed because the demand wasn't there. The vast majority of the passengers were at local stations.

The F expresses might succeed because there are many passengers at express stations, namely all the stations from Church Ave. to Coney Island.

It depends whether there are enough people who can treat each of the two expresses like a railroad train, and make sure they show up just in time for it.







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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Jul 12 09:18:52 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jul 12 07:16:57 2019.

If it ran express from Kings Highway to Jay, then it could be compared to the W Astoria express. Easily.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by 3-9 on Fri Jul 12 09:30:18 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by AlM on Fri Jul 12 09:17:41 2019.

With all the new developments in southern Brooklyn, the game has changed a bit since the times when Park Slope and Carroll Gardens were the main ridership sources. Still, unless the expresses pass other F trains and the times are clearly mentioned to the riders, not just through a press release, it's going to be tough.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Jul 12 09:42:13 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by Train Dude on Thu Jul 11 19:53:58 2019.

LOL!

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Jul 12 09:51:59 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by Dan on Fri Jul 12 06:18:49 2019.

Don't remind me. During one of the Manhattan Bridge closures I used to get harassed regularly with bitching passengers about the R having new trains with air conditioning while we ride in the garbage.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by Mitch45 on Fri Jul 12 10:56:40 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by Allan on Wed Jul 10 15:24:18 2019.

Well, you know railfans. We want every closed station everywhere to be reopened.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by Mitch45 on Fri Jul 12 10:57:01 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Thu Jul 11 02:26:38 2019.

Peek

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by italianstallion on Fri Jul 12 11:11:41 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Jul 11 08:01:14 2019.

Back during the W Astoria express days, a W leaving Astoria never caught up with a local N before QP. While that was a relatively short express run, proper scheduling could easily have allowed Ws to reach QP before their N leaders.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by 3-9 on Fri Jul 12 13:14:27 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Jul 12 09:51:59 2019.

I miss that "garbage". :-S


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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by 3-9 on Fri Jul 12 13:20:29 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by Dan on Fri Jul 12 06:18:49 2019.

Fascinating you should mention that bit of history. The F from Brooklyn was pretty seriously packed during the rush hours. Going southbound, it always waited to pick up passengers from D and B trains, but rarely the other way around. As for getting the newest equipment, I thought it was just because Queens Blvd and Jamaica head the heaviest ridership - it wasn't a political matter. Getting the newest equipment bit it in the butt, though.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Jul 12 13:47:06 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by Dan on Fri Jul 12 06:18:49 2019.

"The F had the best always-air-condtioned equipment..."

Thats because the clintele from Rego Park, Forest Hills & Kew Gardens along Queens Blvd had big mouths & political juice. They screamed bloody murder when filthy, graffiti covered R-10s that were clearly past their prime started showing up there IIRC late 70s - early 80s

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Jul 12 14:20:50 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Jul 12 13:47:06 2019.

And the same people still live there 50 years later?

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by Brightonr68 on Fri Jul 12 16:00:26 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by Dan on Fri Jul 12 06:18:49 2019.

Old smelly cars with flickering lights vs brand new cars and longer rides . Take f.

I remember fighting with my mom to wait or the "new bus" coming home from grand ma's in the early 80's .

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Jul 12 16:17:56 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by 3-9 on Fri Jul 12 13:14:27 2019.

IDK how old you are but I am referring to before GOH. Fans didn't work, air conditioning didn't work, R42's with dark cars and hardly no emergency lighting, trains burning up, you never knew if the train would die going up a bridge or tunnel grade.....I can go on and on. Yes, it was garbage.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by 3-9 on Fri Jul 12 16:40:04 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Jul 12 16:17:56 2019.

I remember the cars before GOH and, yes, I remember that the doors frequently failed, the air conditioning didn't work, everything was covered with grafitti, and there were lots of delays. But I also liked the cars in their original styles, with their original sounds, even if the paint was different from how they were delivered. Once changes were made for practicality, such as smaller windows, the cars lost a lot aesthetically.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Jul 12 16:49:33 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Jul 12 14:20:50 2019.

Probably not. But I'm sure well heeled, big mouthed, fat wallet types of the next generation have taken their place since the real estate market has more than quadrupled, at least, housing prices there.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by r33/r36 mainline on Fri Jul 12 18:31:55 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by 3-9 on Fri Jul 12 16:40:04 2019.

One of the biggest bummers of being born 91 is not being able to hear how the Redbirds & R32 - R46 sounded pre GOH lol. We only have WF car 9306 from that era and I rode in it before on a TM trip but I paid no attention to the sounds of the car.

I also missed out on the field shunting era, I assume the the NTT comes pretty close to field shunting acceleration rates as NTT usually blow SMEEs away when they leave an express stop at the same time.



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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by r33/r36 mainline on Fri Jul 12 18:34:08 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Fri Jul 12 18:31:55 2019.

Forgot to mention the various SMEE's that are apart of the TM fleet that never got GOH'd, been on all the IRT ones on that very same trip but didn't pay attention to the sounds. B div units I have yet to ride R10/11/16, etc.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by Bill Newkirk on Sat Jul 13 03:33:01 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Jul 12 16:17:56 2019.

IDK how old you are but I am referring to before GOH. Fans didn't work, air conditioning didn't work, R42's with dark cars and hardly no emergency lighting, trains burning up, you never knew if the train would die going up a bridge or tunnel grade.....I can go on and on. Yes, it was garbage.

I remember riding on an R-17 on the #2 with no working fans, windows open, standing room only. Sweat was pouring down on my forehead. Then there was the time I rode an R-44 on the (D) Brighton, no A/C. Those flip in vent windows were no match for an older car with drop sashes. The roaring axiflow fans would be an improvement. And yes, I remember riding dark cars, usually R 42's.

Bill Newkirk

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sat Jul 13 04:17:12 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by Bill Newkirk on Sat Jul 13 03:33:01 2019.


IDK how old you are but I am referring to before GOH. Fans didn't work, air conditioning didn't work, R42's with dark cars and hardly no emergency lighting, trains burning up, you never knew if the train would die going up a bridge or tunnel grade.....I can go on and on. Yes, it was garbage.



Things were not better on the commuter railroads either. Several years ago I was talking to a long time commuter on the Harlem Line. We were discussing the old Conrail days. She commented that back then there were three things that you wanted on a train; movement, lights and heat (or A/C in the summer). If you had two of the three you didn't complain
.


I remember subway trains with at least two dead closed off cars. You could not tell which station you were at because all the windows were covered with graffiti. You never ever rode in the last car because that was the hangout for all the hoodlums and punks. These certainly were not "the good old days".


Larry, RedbirdR33


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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by Dan on Sat Jul 13 04:29:01 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by 3-9 on Fri Jul 12 13:20:29 2019.

Operational in that the Jamaica and Coney Island facilities could handle the R44/R46 fleets. IIRC by 1976 the entire E and F fleets were comprised of R46s. Political in that powerful politicians in Queens and Brooklyn made sure that the E and F got the newest equipment. To be more blunt the E and F served areas that were heavily Jewish and Italian, two large important voting blocks at the time.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Sat Jul 13 04:35:13 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Fri Jul 12 18:34:08 2019.

Main thing you missed was the great "Darth Vader" brakes on R-38 through R-42. Loved those. Once I heard about the GOH which included "new braking systems", I knew that the Vader brakes were history :( (though I didn't hear that description of them until I started reading SubTalk). At least there are some recordings of them.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Jul 13 05:38:51 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Sat Jul 13 04:35:13 2019.

At least there are some recordings of them.

Any on the web that you know of? I'd be interested to hear.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Jul 13 09:13:28 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by Bill Newkirk on Sat Jul 13 03:33:01 2019.

Just speaking of the B Division,IMO, the higher numbered R32's with the different fan covers (3800-3949) and the first 190 R38's were much stuffer than the other fan covers found on the rest of the R32's, and R27/30's. When the fans were spinning slowly, likely caused by a faulty thermostat that was never repaired/changed, it was like a sauna in there, especially on the R32/38 thanks to those vent windows. Every R16 I was remember riding on, except museum 6387 had inoperable fans or slow ones.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by K. Trout on Sat Jul 13 09:21:18 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jul 11 21:28:49 2019.

Calling the Z a diamond doesn't make much sense since it's a separate service, not a variant of the J. A J diamond would work if the skip-stop was rearranged such that (J) makes all stops, and is peak-direction express making only Z stops. However, from what I understand, the current J/Z split is required to manage loads on the Jamaica line, and an express would result in overloading the local (J).

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by K. Trout on Sat Jul 13 09:21:52 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by K. Trout on Sat Jul 13 09:21:18 2019.

Meant to write <J>, forgot about HTML.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by Bill Newkirk on Sat Jul 13 09:31:41 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Jul 13 09:13:28 2019.

Just speaking of the B Division,IMO, the higher numbered R32's with the different fan covers (3800-3949) and the first 190 R38's were much stuffer than the other fan covers found on the rest of the R32's, and R27/30's.

Yes, that's true. I felt the R27-32's with the original axiflow fan baffles made it bearable. The #3800 R32's through R-40's were hot. R 38's were ovens !

When the fans were spinning slowly, likely caused by a faulty thermostat that was never repaired/changed, it was like a sauna in there, especially on the R32/38 thanks to those vent windows.

Fans spinning slowly in the summer ? I never recalled that, though I don't doubt it. I do remember the axiflows spinning slowly in the winter to redirect warm air down. Ya know, heat rises. Never saw them at full speed in the winter.

While we're turning this into FanChat, in warm weather when the fans were turning slowly, we would climb out of the tunnel onto the Manhattan Bridge where it was much warmer. The thermostats sensed this and you could hear the motorized plenums in the ceiling open one section at a time. Then the fans would go to high speed. I noticed this on the R 32's when they were assigned to the Q Broadway Exp.

Bill Newkirk

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Jul 13 09:42:34 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by Bill Newkirk on Sat Jul 13 09:31:41 2019.

From 1973 till 1979 I worked at 2 branches for Chemical Bank. I would ride the R27/30's to and from work. I was required to wear suit jacket and tie, even in the summer. I would always try to spot myself under a fan so I do recall many slow ones and some not working at all. On a crowded train even the open windows weren't much help.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by 3-9 on Sat Jul 13 11:47:43 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Sat Jul 13 04:35:13 2019.

PATH's PA-1's and PA-3's (maybe even the PA-4's) also had the Darth Vader brakes, until the very end.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Jul 13 12:05:42 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Fri Jul 12 18:31:55 2019.

The field shunting is still there. Only the final step, increasing the balancing speed, has been disabled.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by 3-9 on Sat Jul 13 12:06:04 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Fri Jul 12 18:34:08 2019.

Sad to say that the pre-GOH sounds are not very distinct on the museum's A division equipment. You have to listen VERY closely, which of course is not what it was like in revenue service.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by murray1575 on Sat Jul 13 15:03:08 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by Mitch45 on Fri Jul 12 10:56:40 2019.

And every elevated line which was torn down put back up.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by Marc A. Rivlin on Sun Jul 14 08:43:06 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by Mitch45 on Fri Jul 12 10:56:40 2019.

Planners and policy analysts as well. Unused tracks, connections, and platforms are an opportunity to increase or improve service at a fraction of the cost of tunneling new lines. Not that this would be cheap. Lower Bergen would have to be restored to a usable state with walls tiled and any equipment on the platforms relocated. And it would probably take four elevators to make the station ADA compliant.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Jul 14 13:21:19 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by Marc A. Rivlin on Sun Jul 14 08:43:06 2019.

I've been saying the best "free" Brooklyn connection for the SAS would be to hook in to the F at 2nd av - Houston St. An underutilized river crossing to an underutilized Brooklyn trunk line. Since the F beyond Church Ave is snugly between the Brigthon and Sea Beach, direct SAS access would draw riders from both lines.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by AlM on Sun Jul 14 14:21:46 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Jul 14 13:21:19 2019.

Oh no, Houston Street torn up for another decade! :)



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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by randyo on Sun Jul 14 19:42:33 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by 3-9 on Wed Jul 10 11:24:31 2019.

Although the press release indicated the F expresses will display the diamond, itís really useless since only the end signs are capable of displaying the diamond while the side signs are not and that applies to both the R-160s and the R-46s..

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by randyo on Sun Jul 14 19:45:54 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by 3-9 on Wed Jul 10 11:24:31 2019.

Although the press release indicated the F expresses will display the diamond, itís really useless since only the end signs are capable of displaying the diamond while the side signs are not and that applies to both the R-160s and the R-46s.

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Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jul 14 20:20:33 2019, in response to Re: It's officially announced: F Express service in Brooklyn, posted by randyo on Sun Jul 14 19:42:33 2019.

LOL!

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