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| (1461712) | |
The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Dave on Wed Jan 10 11:36:42 2018 Penn Sta. tunnels |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Wed Jan 10 11:43:14 2018, in response to The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Dave on Wed Jan 10 11:36:42 2018. One dem here argued with me that they cannot be replaced and called me all sorts of names.it's too bad. I guess they'll just have to deal with it until it collapses if he has his way. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Wed Jan 10 12:02:18 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by orange blossom special on Wed Jan 10 11:43:14 2018. The City basically dared the RR to tear down the old, monumental Penn Station with multi-story high breathing space (dunno how high, it was before my time), and they 'won' their dare. The current rat warren is the product of the city's greed, grasping and corruption. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Jan 10 12:30:24 2018, in response to The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Dave on Wed Jan 10 11:36:42 2018. Why on earth is Penn Station the most awful Transit Center in America?Yes, of course it could be better. But many transit centers have no useful transportation even on a good day. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by pragmatist on Wed Jan 10 12:47:19 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by AlM on Wed Jan 10 12:30:24 2018. A beautiful building from a bygone era was torn down and lots of folks are still upset. Hindsight is 20-20. Of course if that station was still there, it would be completely out of place because NYP is mostly a high volume commuter and corridor station, that also handles some medium and long distance trains. For the most part, it is no longer a prime gateway for arrival, or a place to wait for a train for a vacation, it is a place people scurry in and out of on the way to/from work or a meeting in an East Coast city. The narrow platforms with poor access, the switches. signals, power systems and tunnels are no longer adequate, a nice building over them is the proverbial lipstick on a pig. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jan 10 12:51:04 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by AlM on Wed Jan 10 12:30:24 2018. Hyperbole, the bane of online "journalism". |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jan 10 13:24:45 2018, in response to The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Dave on Wed Jan 10 11:36:42 2018. (One estimate, from the Business Roundtable, says that a dollar invested in infrastructure yields as much as $3 in economic growth.)This is one of capitalism's shortcomings. The entities that would directly benefit from new infrastructure generated economic growth are not the entities that are required to fund that infrastructure. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Jan 10 13:29:09 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Steamdriven on Wed Jan 10 12:02:18 2018. The only good thing about the destruction of the original Pennsylvania Station is that it saved Grand Central Terminal. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jan 10 13:37:30 2018, in response to The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Dave on Wed Jan 10 11:36:42 2018. Even if we still had the beautiful original NYP restored, we'd still be in the same boat with the 2 tubes under the Hudson. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Wed Jan 10 13:54:55 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Jan 10 13:29:09 2018. And many other buildings too. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Jan 10 13:55:37 2018, in response to The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Dave on Wed Jan 10 11:36:42 2018. If the unthinkable ever were to happen, it would probably mean Amtrak might have to route some of their service back into GCT. NE Corridor service and service to points south would probably have to operate out of Hoboken. With all the discussion I’ve seen about the Hudson River tunnels and NYCT’s under river tunnels. What is the status of PATH’s tubes? |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by LA Scott on Wed Jan 10 14:00:20 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by randyo on Wed Jan 10 13:55:37 2018. The South PATH tubes got a full gut rehab after 9/11, and got a decent cleaning during a 2 month shutdown after Sandy.There were weekend shutdowns all last year to re-do the signals on the 6th Ave branch and North tubes. I hope they did other repairs while shut down. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jan 10 14:25:05 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by pragmatist on Wed Jan 10 12:47:19 2018. I suspect that some of the obstructions on the platforms are supports for the buildings above the concourse. Removing the MSG/office eyesores should allow reclaiming some platform space as well as improving the feel of the place. In a better world we would restore the grand building; that being unlikely, the least we should do is get rid of the junk and make the place more pleasant. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jan 10 14:27:19 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jan 10 13:37:30 2018. true. the disgusting pols who are continuing their violin concerts while the tunnels rot should be dragooned to do clean up work down there in their civies. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 10 14:57:49 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Jan 10 13:29:09 2018. I've always found that argument wanting. Would you rather that it was the other way around? |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 10 14:57:50 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Jan 10 13:29:09 2018. I've always found that argument wanting. Would you rather that it was the other way around? |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jan 10 15:50:02 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 10 14:57:50 2018. Its not an argument; it is a sad fact of history. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Jan 10 16:03:25 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 10 14:57:49 2018. Absolutely Not! |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Jan 10 16:03:47 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 10 14:57:50 2018. If I could only have one, I'd rather have GCT. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jan 10 16:07:28 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by AlM on Wed Jan 10 16:03:47 2018. Perhaps. But we should NEVER be faced with such choices. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by ftgreeneg on Wed Jan 10 16:26:24 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 10 14:57:49 2018. I dunno based on the old pictures I'd say both looked great but GCT looks better than the old Penn Station but thats purely my taste. Too bad both couldn't be saved however. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Wed Jan 10 16:49:50 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by ftgreeneg on Wed Jan 10 16:26:24 2018. This photo taken before the crime of the century revealed how aged and dirty the granite was. If it was cleaned up, this station's architecture would rival GCT. You can see how neglected this beautiful structure became.  |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Wed Jan 10 17:01:09 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by AlM on Wed Jan 10 16:03:47 2018. Pennsylvania Station - The original structure that was demolished.Penn Station - The current station that resembles a crowded basement on steroids. It seems everyone calls it Penn station. Do you ever hear the name Pennsylvania Station mentioned ? Too many syllables. Moynihan Station - The future station's shopping mall / mega waiting room, one block west where it should really be. Cuomo may be tempted to rename Moynihan station in his own honor, he's on a roll. Bill Newkirk |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Jan 10 17:06:42 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Bill Newkirk on Wed Jan 10 16:49:50 2018. Yep. The PRR was broke & couldn't afford a major cleanup. I don't know what they got for the air rights when the wrecking ball showed up.I remember going thru the original Penn Sta as a kid with my parents & the place was filthy and neglected. It had the aura of a medieval dungeon whereas GCT, in its dirtiest NYCRR/PC years always, to me anyway, was a planetarium or cathedral with trains. Dirty as the ceiling was, you could still see traces of the constellations. GCT Just had a better feel to me if that makes any sense. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Jan 10 17:33:35 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Jan 10 17:06:42 2018. I have foggy memories of it. You couldn't air condition it easily, there were few places to sit, and that huge taxi way on the south side of 7th Avenue would have been rendered useless after 9/11/01. It had become an ugly brown building that needed a serious refurbishment and upgrade. Nobody foresaw commuter and intercity rail ridership growing like it did in the early 1960's. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jan 10 17:49:47 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Jan 10 17:06:42 2018. yes it was grubby and in serious need of cleaning. The differing ways PRR and NYC behaved in the dismal nearly bankrupt decade before the merger were very odd. PRR maintained the B'way Ltd as pure 1st class with few passengers and downgraded everything else--rebuilt sleepers turned ito coaches with seats where there were no windows, the end of almost all dining cars, sloppy operations. NYC had added coaches AND Sleepercoaches to the 20th Century and other trains, but in 67 when I had booked a sleepercoach, I got roomette with a cigaret butt from the previous rider still in the ashtray as our train originated at GCT. Perlman made a PR splash with the jet powered RDC, and announced thatcars for the Century would go through a special rehab program including a plate indicating assignment. So there I was at Rhinecliff (certainly not a stop for the TCL) watching my train roll in with a coach so designated. Yet until the last, they rolled out the Red Carpet at GCT. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Jan 10 17:52:50 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Joe V on Wed Jan 10 17:33:35 2018. "Nobody foresaw commuter and intercity rail ridership growing like it did in the early 1960's"In the 1960s,Commuter rail ridership was growing primarily due to the white flight suburban sprawl to LI & NJ. However, in the 1960s, Intercity long distance trains (outside of the NE corridor) were in the crosshairs. Thanks to interstate highways, 35 cents a gallon gas & affordable air fares, the end was near, or so it seemed. I think when they designed the "new" Penn Sta. they deliberately made it a basement with the esclators narrow in anticapation of decreased long distance passenger demand and the PRR doing nothing to encourage it. The spiral of diminishing returns. Minimal terminal comforts, Worsten service, ridership drops, kill the train a/c low ridership. Problem solved! |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Jan 10 19:09:24 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jan 10 17:49:47 2018. The think that jet RDC was intended to spoof the Metroilner project. It was to say, "see, we can make it go 180 MPH, on jointed rail, and not spend a dime to upgrade the ROW". |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Wed Jan 10 19:33:42 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jan 10 15:50:02 2018. This has happened in other cities too. One city that I won't mention because I don't need to see clearaspects nonsense had a monumental Moorish station that stetched for blocks.Got torn down. They refused to let anything else old get demolished again. That city is beautifully preserved. |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Wed Jan 10 20:09:08 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Jan 10 17:52:50 2018. Even with the decline in long-distance ridership, suburban commuters deserved (and still deserve) something better than a basement station with the esthetics of a junior high school locker room.My blog |
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Posted by r33/r36 mainline on Wed Jan 10 20:22:31 2018, in response to The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Dave on Wed Jan 10 11:36:42 2018. I'm probably the only person on earth who loves NYP, and prefers it over GCT. Three different railroads, two different modes of electrification. Also IMO NYP has a better selection of stores than GCT, also you can buy movie theater style popcorn at NYP!The only thing I dislike about NYP is the track a train will depart from being announced like 10 minutes before it leaves, causing a mad dash of people to race to the platform. This is why when I plan to fan Acela to Philly pretty soon I'm seriously considering buying a ticket from Stamford rather than NYP, at least I would be guaranteed a window seat on the NYP - Philly portion of the route if I did that. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by sand box john on Wed Jan 10 20:23:56 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jan 10 13:37:30 2018. Even if we still had the beautiful original NYP restored, we'd still be in the same boat with the 2 tubes under the Hudson.Bingo! ! ! It is my opinion that the proposed "Access to the Region's Core" schema is a solution to a different problem. I happen to believe a more logical solution is the bore two new tunnels, one upstream and one downstream, of the existing north river tunnels and connect them to the an enlarged A interlocking to allow access to all platforms. The tunnels would be bored to a more generous dimensions to allow the movement of taller rolling stock. After commissioning of the new tunnels the existing tunnels would be rebuilt to the same dimensions of the new tunnels. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Jan 10 20:29:31 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Wed Jan 10 20:22:31 2018. The only thing I dislike about NYP is the track a train will depart from being announced like 10 minutes before it leaves That's a feature. :) Seriously, I guess given the number of trains per hour the station handles, they have no choice. |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Wed Jan 10 20:59:51 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by orange blossom special on Wed Jan 10 19:33:42 2018. We (country as a whole) have done much vandalizing of our own country. The destructive philistine instinct in humanity sleeps, but never dies. |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jan 10 21:04:20 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by AlM on Wed Jan 10 20:29:31 2018. And the trains don't arrive from the yard till close to departure time.Only 21 tracks. 1-4 have quick turn around, cars have to be cleaned there. That leaves 17 tracks to be shared between 3 railroads, and right now you have 1 or 2 tracks at a time being replaced from the concrete on up. |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jan 10 22:22:43 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Joe V on Wed Jan 10 19:09:24 2018. or, as I thought at the time, to deflect criticism as the diners and lounges disappeared. In 1962 I was on a 2 week private car trip Chicago to Veracruz and back using various different routes. The NdeM trains had a bunch ofnewly acquired Budd SS obs lounges, and diners (trucks stenciled repacked Buffalo April 1962) on their premier trains in sharp contrast to the flat side carbon steel PS lightweight sleep[ers, and early MILW ribbed Hiawatha coaches. Quite the fruit salad! |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jan 10 22:24:32 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Steamdriven on Wed Jan 10 20:59:51 2018. yes, too bad it is immortal. |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jan 10 22:27:38 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by sand box john on Wed Jan 10 20:23:56 2018. BRILLIANT! |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 11 00:49:29 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jan 10 12:51:04 2018. It's in print journalism too. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 11 00:52:34 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jan 10 13:37:30 2018. You know why there were two tunnels (rather than tubes), right?Because the other trains were going to Exchange Place. For fifty years after NYP opened. Four tracks that split into two sets of two in Kearny. One option had zero tunnels under the Hudson, and the railroad splitting off from the original New Jersey RR main line at Rahway to cross Staten Island and the Narrows into Brooklyn and Queens, then entering Manhattan via the LIRR tunnels. Imagine GG1s running through Staten Island, eh? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 11 00:54:06 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Bill Newkirk on Wed Jan 10 16:49:50 2018. Agreed.Of course, NJT squeezing most of its Hoboken Division electrics into the station with that building over it would be just as much of a disaster. |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 11 00:55:27 2018, in response to The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Dave on Wed Jan 10 11:36:42 2018. NJT abuse. No foresight when it came to squeezing commuter trains from the former DL&W onto the old PRR Meadowlands line.And jeers to Bloomberg for using the Newspeak term "transit center". |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 11 00:56:50 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Bill Newkirk on Wed Jan 10 17:01:09 2018. Cuomo may be tempted to rename Moynihan station in his own honor, he's on a rollWell, he did rename the new Tappan Zee bridge after his late dad. If he does something similar to "the most awful transit center in America", he'd be on a sub sandwich loaf. |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Jan 11 05:34:26 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 11 00:56:50 2018. It's always going to be the (new) Tappan Zee for me and a lot of others - Just like it's still called the Triboro Bridge, instead of RFK... |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Jan 11 06:50:44 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Wed Jan 10 20:22:31 2018. Well, everyone is entitled to his/her own preferences, so I respect yours. But I'd also think that all of the features you describe- right down to the popcorn, could exist a nicer environment. |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jan 11 07:17:13 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Express Rider on Thu Jan 11 05:34:26 2018. No real New Yorker ever refers to Sixth Avenue as "Avenue of the Americas", either...LOL! |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Jan 11 08:08:28 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jan 11 07:17:13 2018. That name was such a flop that in the 1980s, the City actually put back 6th Avenue signs. To this day, the avenue is dual-signed. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Jan 11 08:35:26 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jan 10 21:04:20 2018. Each of the 17 thru tracks are not shared by all 3 railroads.Tracks 13 to 16 are though. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Jan 11 08:37:46 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 11 00:55:27 2018. They thought the MDT train were be shorter than what was to be required, that the 90 MPH switches they installed at Swift would actually have MDT trains running faster then 10 -15 MPH that they actually do, and that Secaucus would not have turned a 14 minute NYP-NWK trip into a 20 - 25 minute schlep. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jan 11 09:07:42 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Joe V on Thu Jan 11 08:37:46 2018. Midtown Direct is a mess. Too many times, I've sat under the NJ Turnpike overpass on a MTD train, waiting to enter the NEC, while two or three NJT or Amtrak trains rolled past us. It's astonishing that a 14-minute NYP-NWK trip has been extended by 11 minutes, with the addition of just one station stop. It's all too much! |
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